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Administrators at JC schools deny cheating despite high number of erasures on standardized tests
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Administrators at area schools deny cheating despite above average number of erasures on standardized tests
Saturday, July 23, 2011 By Rhea Mahbubani The Jersey Journal Three Hudson County schools one each in Bayonne, Union City and Jersey City have been flagged for having a high number of erasures on the New Jersey Assessment of Skills and Knowledge standardized tests, the state Department of Education announced. A statewide test score analysis revealed 120 schools with a high wrong-to-right erasure rate where incorrect answers were swapped for correct ones when compared to the state average of 2.43 erasures per student, said DOE officials. District officials in Bayonne and Union City were adamant that they followed normal procedures and no cheating occurred. The DOE plans to investigate testing practices administered last year at 34 schools that were found to have the highest number of erasures per grade or more than a schoolwide rate of 5.43 erasures per pupil. Language arts and math test scores that raised eyebrows in Hudson County are from the Grade 8 test at Bayonne?s Midtown Community School No. 8, the Grade 3 test at Washington Elementary School in Union City, and the Grade 3 test at Jersey City Community Charter School. ?In no way do these reports prove that cheating occurred, nor do they implicate any school or teacher in wrongdoing,? said Acting Education Commissioner Christopher Cerf in a statement. Bayonne?s Assistant Superintendent Robert Craig said students and staff at Midtown did nothing wrong. ?Obviously erasures do occur on tests and we feel that the report that came out doesn?t indicate that cheating or anything illegal had been done,? said Craig. Stanley M. Sanger, Union City?s school district superintendent said that faculty and students at Washington Elementary School followed the rules. ?We are very confident that we follow all protocol when it comes to test-taking,? he said. Representatives from the Jersey City Community Charter School didn?t return phone calls for comment. The DOE?s Office of Fiscal Accountability and Compliance will look into Jersey City Community Charter School?s 5.59 wrong-to-right erasure rate per student in Grade 3, since it doesn?t lie within the jurisdiction of a school district. Bayonne?s Board of Education will inspect Midtown Community School 8?s 9.48 erasure rate in Grade 8, and Union City will prepare a report about Washington Elementary?s 5.80 erasure rate in Grade 3. The Star-Ledger contributed to this story.
Posted on: 2011/7/23 15:11
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Re: Systematic Cheating On Test Scores Is Found In Public School System
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Look, it is very simple, - any theory should explain how exactly something will happen.
So, Baumal's theory explains that teacher's salaries must rise in order to catch up with the average level. The explanation: because otherwise teachers will start to leave teaching and change industries. Ok, sounds plausible, let's assume it is true. But this argument doesn't explain teacher's salaries growing HIGHER than average. Because it is BASED on the idea of "catching up". What else is there that we need to buy for education? Supplies, buildings, books. None of those things should grow in price faster in education than in any other area. So, let's make it simple, - can you point out ONE component of the what adds up for a total educational spending that should grow that much faster than inflation, - and explain WHAT causes it to grow faster than everything else?
Posted on: 2011/7/11 1:47
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Re: Systematic Cheating On Test Scores Is Found In Public School System
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Just read opening section of this paper, by Baumol himself.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w394372168713921/
The key line is 'either: ever more gross national product will have to be channeled trough the public sector...'
I'm not trying to excuse anything here, just trying to explain some of why we would see the sort of spending we have seen in many sectors without also seeing improvement. (In most cases there are a lot of reason that have nothing to do with this effect as well.)
I agree it is unsustainable and there are a variety of different solutions that have been proposed over time but most don't seem that convincing to me.
This is also a good article:
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogdec10/productivity12-10.html
The key lines, Baumol and Bowen then described the peculiar result of this: as GDP increased due to goods-producing improvements in productivity, the relative share of low-growth-productivity services would rise.
Baumol foresaw the crunch that his theory predicted: as healthcare and education took a larger share of the national income/GDP, taxes would have to rise substantially to pay for those services.
He described the social choices we faced in a seminal 1993 paper: Health care, education and the cost disease: A looming crisis for public choice. Baumol thought that increases in Federal taxes (from roughly 19% of GDP to 25% of GDP) would, if accompanied by continued productivity growth in the goods-producing sectors, allow the U.S. to afford more of everything, including goods and government services.
It is also nice in that he tries to explain some of the extra costs we have seen outside of the Baumol Effect and I think does a pretty good job.
Posted on: 2011/7/10 11:16
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moobycow wrote: Oh good, you looked it on wikipedia, I guess the argument is over then. I'm going to be dismissive here because I should be dismissive. You don't understand what you're talking about. No shame in that, but don't pretend you do. From actual economists "Of the five sources of increased productivity cited above, only economies of scale as a result of longer seasons is really effective in the live performing arts. With only that factor to rely on, the live performing arts, as Baumol and Bowen emphasized, ?cannot hope to match the remarkable record of productivity growth achieved by the economy as a whole? (1966, p.165). As a result, cost per unit of output in the live performing arts is fated to rise continuously relative to costs in the economy as a whole. That, inbrief, is the unavoidable consequence of productivity lag." http://publishing.eur.nl/ir/repub/ass ... 0EBOOK_pages0103-0113.pdf I suppose that could be more clearly stated, but I'm not exactly sure how. You can substitute education for live performing arts in the example above as both are described by the Baumol effect.
Posted on: 2011/7/10 3:43
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Mooby, the thread took a bit of a tangent off the original discussion. I think you and Boris are arguing different points. You've both valid points. I think Boris's points are more forward-looking and your's are more about explaining current-state. To get the topic back on track a little. I think we can all agree that it's tough for educators to meet expectations given circumstances. We can probably agree on the fact that it's wrong for people within the ed system to cheat. I think we might disagree on whether there is a real solution to it. Personally, I believe the whole Baumol theories are just theories, based on old economics and some left-wing ed trade-union principles and practices that need to be challenged. I also think that if we allow them to hold true, the US will kill itself economically - it's not sustainable. Perhaps that's inevitable, but I'd rather think and act like it wasn't.
Posted on: 2011/7/10 3:03
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Oh good, you looked it on wikipedia, I guess the argument is over then. I'm going to be dismissive here because I should be dismissive. You don't understand what you're talking about. No shame in that, but don't pretend you do.
From actual economists "Of the five sources of increased productivity cited above, only economies of scale as a result of longer seasons is really effective in the live performing arts. With only that factor to rely on, the live performing arts, as Baumol and Bowen emphasized, ?cannot hope to match the remarkable record of productivity growth achieved by the economy as a whole? (1966, p.165). As a result, cost per unit of output in the live performing arts is fated to rise continuously relative to costs in the economy as a whole. That, inbrief, is the unavoidable consequence of productivity lag."
http://publishing.eur.nl/ir/repub/ass ... 0EBOOK_pages0103-0113.pdf
I suppose that could be more clearly stated, but I'm not exactly sure how. You can substitute education for live performing arts in the example above as both are described by the Baumol effect.
Posted on: 2011/7/10 0:05
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Boris - Brewster was kinda making the same point.
Posted on: 2011/7/9 22:17
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No, doesn't work. Only the BEST AND BRIGHTEST can compare their income to what the best and brightest are being paid. Not just that, but "best and brightest" is not enough. Business and teaching are different jobs, that require different qualities. Not every teacher, even the best and brightest will succeed in Wall Street. Not every banker will succeed in a classroom. It is really weird to hear people claim that "oh, I could have done the same, I am no less smart than Gates, or Brin and Page!" Sure thing, you are not less smart. But you are less willing to put it all on the line, you are less willing to seek opportunities, you are less interested in writing code, or you are less interested in trying to figure out what other people need in order to provide it for them. If you are WILLING to do all that, - you should go and do that. And, if you are NOT willing, - you can't tell me that you should be compensated just as much as those who are.
Posted on: 2011/7/9 21:58
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Excuse me, have I used one single "ideological"argument? If so, show it to me. I offered facts. When they were out of hand dismissed, I asked for some evidence why they can't be trusted. I was sticking to facts and logic all the way through. Now, if your ideology is a matter of blind faith to you, - than, yes, you are right. In this case, yes, you are entitled to defend your Faith the way that faithful do. Otherwise, I prefer a rational argument and I see no excuse in not doing that. Quote: Does the Baumal Effect account for all the increases in education spending? Probably not but it also clearly a part of what we are seeing. You do not need to refer to any special effect to justify inflation-speed of growth in prices. However, what we observe is 3 times the rate of inflation and Baumal effect doesn't explain it at all. It doesn't even claim to explain it. Quote: And no, it does not say that the impact is 'catching up' a lagging sector it clearly states that the sectors that do not have the same productivity gains will increase in costs at a greater rate. Here is the Wikipedia's article on Baumal effect. It clearly states that Baumal described rise in salaries in response to rise in other salaries. The theory of the effect explains why the salary of low-productivity sector can't lag behind that of other sectors. It also states clearly that the original study showed that performer's salaries grew "when not adjusted for inflation". This theory doesn't even claim to explain one sector OVETAKING another, - only a catching up. Quote: The individual salary 'catches up', the overall sector takes a greater amount of relative resources. Doesn't work this way. The expenses are salaries + supplies. Supplies will grow at inflation rate, salaries will be catching up with it. There is no reason whatsoever for the sum to outpace the inflation by a factor of THREE. Quote: I'm just trying to help explain part of the reason it is happening. Trying to solve this sort of problem is one the biggest issues facing all developed economies. You look at the data that showed the huge piles of money that all went to nothing and gave no return whatsoever, - and you are willing to invest some more? What should happen to convince you that this does not work? If you do care about education, - why you are so eager to perpetuate something that produces nothing?
Posted on: 2011/7/9 21:44
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Believe me cheating goes on everywhere, even in some of America's best universities.
That it may be prevalent in public schools is not surprising. Short-sighted people have put all the onus on teachers, when the fact of the matter is that far too many kids are either too stupid or simply don't want to learn, and in many cases the parents are dumber than the kids. I remember sitting on the bus listening to a young father trying to help his son with his 1st or 2nd grade homework - I was not very encouraged. I thought perhaps the father should go back to 4th grade.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 18:09
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Interesting discussion point of the effect of externalities on the ed system. while it's just one factor in the ed economics, it's one shared by a number of other industries in getting compared to fields that are not subject to market feedback on their costs, like Finance, Medicine & Public Employment. All of these have grown tremendously as % of our GDP in the last 40 years.
It's documented that Wall Street has grabbed the best and brightest of not only finance & law students, but physics & math, paying them many times what they would have earned in industry or academia. This leads to everyone from judges to math teachers benchmarking their income against what they would earn on Wall Street. The problem with comparing productivity to wall street is productivity has become meaningless there, as it's all just a shell game rather than a system of industry raising capital. It also happens for employees like cops, where one dept that has "captured" a gov't like what happened in Nassau County, leading to excessive pay there, which then becomes the benchmark for other Dept's to compare themselves to. This domino effect has happened throughout the public sector. And ignore Boris, he's lost in his self deluded Cato world. Box him in and his argument descends to "did not!" like every other right wing hypocrite that wants freedom from regulation and tax but not from the bad outcomes that result.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 17:11
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dtjcview,
I agree with all of that, but I honestly don't know if it makes a lot of difference who you elect to school boards, the problem is simply structural in our economy (IMO). We clearly have some gains to be made in certain areas and waste to eliminate to catch up to how other countries do things, but those are delaying tactics as the issue of service intensive work not increasing productivity as the manufacturing is not going away and causes problems everywhere. All that having been said I think we have other issues that are more pressing at the Federal level, but perhaps not at the local level.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 16:46
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I wasn't lashing out in anger. I got your original point and recognised it was unsustainable. The education boards will find their budgets limited. If they continue to operate in the same way, jobs will be continually cut, more schools will close and our schools will increasingly fail
We need to start challenging every basic operating assumption. That's not going to happen easily from within the education system, it's not in the education boards and teachers self interest to look cold and hard at areas such as tenure, pensions, class sizes, outsourcing, etc. That's where we need to elect the right people to our local BOEs, that believe in living within their means, find ways of increasing productivity, can think outside the box, and have the will to push through changes. That might end up being an ugly but necessary fight.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 14:45
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Borisp,
This is clearly an ideological discussion. I appear patronizing because I recognize the responses are not actually considering new points but just dashed off in anger at anyone who would happen to disagree. It is not productive to get in a back and forth in that situation. Does the Baumal Effect account for all the increases in education spending? Probably not but it also clearly a part of what we are seeing. And no, it does not say that the impact is 'catching up' a lagging sector it clearly states that the sectors that do not have the same productivity gains will increase in costs at a greater rate. The individual salary 'catches up', the overall sector takes a greater amount of relative resources. I'm not saying spending on these sectors is not a problem, it clearly is, you can't have the relative cost of a particular sector increase faster than everything else forever. I'm just trying to help explain part of the reason it is happening. Trying to solve this sort of problem is one the biggest issues facing all developed economies.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 13:08
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"Baumal Effect" says that salaries in the jobs that experience no productivity growth can increase nevertheless, - in response to the salaries growth in other sectors, where productivity did grow. And it is explained with a simple supply-and-demand argument that says that if salaries in, say, manufacturing sector do grow, while in performing sector they don't, people will be leaving performing sector and moving to manufacturing. Unless the rise of the performing sector salaries catches up. Important point: Baumal Effect explains that price growth in some sectors rises not due to productivity growth but to CATCH UP with the rest. And in our case, we talk about price of education not just "catching up" with everything else, but OUTPACING it, - by a factor of THREE. P.S. I suggest you should really stop patronizing your opponents. This will not save you from making mistakes. However, it will really help with an embarrassment level - when you do make said mistakes.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 12:47
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If it were so obvious, the examples to prove the point must have been abundant. And, seeing how you dislike me, you surely would have taken an opportunity to pick the Biggest, Most Convincing and Overwhelming example out of the multitude, - to rub it in my face. Yet, you prefer to spend time claiming it is "obvious" and attacking me personally. Ok.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 12:32
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Not arguing with the model as a way of explaining what DID happen. Just that the "Baumol Effect cannot continue to happen. Simple arithmetic. Education cost increases cannot continue to outpace growth in tax revenues/GDP without the US hitting a wall. Oh wait a minute, isn't that what the folks were discussing in Washington? Debt ceiling. Since 1991 there has been a technological and internet revolution that the public education system hasn't fully leveraged to manage costs. It's time it shook up some of operating assumptions and took a cold hard look ways of managing costs such as virtual classrooms and outsourcing.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 12:11
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I've said my piece, I'm not going to explain 1st year economics to people who obviously don't want to hear about it. If you're really interested you can teach yourself in about 30 min. Look up "Baumol Effect" or "Baulmal Disease"
Posted on: 2011/7/8 11:35
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or its blatantly farking obvious to anyone who's ever paid attention and I don't feel like wasting the time in some sort of argument with someone who's convinced themselves that reality is not actually real. Your screed from other threads has shown that you do not have a basic understanding of definitions, labels, and numerous other issues and nothing I or anyone else will say has any chance of altering it.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 4:25
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Yep Borisp. I'm really tired of these public employees telling me why I have to accept them dipping into my pocket to pay for their incompetance, and their excuses as to why they don't feel the need to manage costs. The more I consider it, I really think we should fire almost all US teachers, and outsource it to overseas virtual teachers that will cost less than 1/3 of what we pay US teachers.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 2:33
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No, sorry, that doesn't work. WHY would price of education grew up faster than average? Ok, fine, let's assume that Internet, unlimited access to the information and so on, - does not give any benefit to the teaching at all (good to know - so we do not need to buy computers for schools). So? Ok, imagine you still need 1 teacher to educate 30 students. Fine. Average price of the things that a teacher CONSUMES grew up by a factor of 5 from 1970 to 2007 - that's your inflation. I.e., the price to "maintain" (feed, cloth, house, etc) one teacher in 1970 was, let's say, 10K a year. In 2007 it is 50K. Same with the price of supplies, building services, etc, etc, - on average, it all grew by a factor of 5. One would expect that the price of the education will grow up proportionally, by a factor of 5. Yet, it grew up by a factor of almost 15. If that were any other industry, - you'd be screaming bloody murder, - and you know it.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 2:16
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No, sorry, this is not how it works. You can not just tell me, - "ah, google is full of examples!" - it is not an honest way to argue. This way if I find something not so persuasive, - you can just tell me "oh, this was bad example, go find better!" And the reference that you gave me - I could not find an example there either. Basically, when you accuse someone, - there are 2 possibilities: 1. You have some supporting evidence, 2. The accusation is baseless. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked to take a look at that evidence. It is a 100% reasonable, honest request. If the evidence is too numerous, fine, - let's start with the best one.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 1:46
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BS. Just because you say so, don't mean it is. The middle class's average income has probably decreased over the past 10 years. They need to give more of their tax dollars to education? They need to increase their education contribution, year on year just to keep America at 17th place or so internationally? That's what has been happening. My take. No reason we cannot outsource most education overseas the way private corporations have being doing for years. Fire most teachers in the US. Have virtual classrooms. Close all the schools and sell off the unneeded property. Get the best educators from around the world to teach our kids. Keep the sports fields and coaches for the fitness programs. If idiot, dumbass educators in the US cannot improve productivity, take a page out of the private corporations book and outsource the damn thing. Public education in the US has fallen back on this kind of nonsensical argument for not being capable of improving productivity and cutting costs. It's total lies, lies and damned statistics :)
Posted on: 2011/7/8 1:40
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It is not lies, lies and statistics it is basic economics and well understood. I simply gave that link because it was relevant and laid out the argument in an easy to follow fashion.
You can choose not to believe it if you want but it is not controversial in the least. Different sectors of the economy have different rates of inflation for all sorts of reasons. This is why the CPI switches out baskets of good for 'equivalent' items this is why things like college and health care take up ever increasing portions of the economy and why items like TVs deflate in value over time and houses do not. In simple terms (with made up numbers), I can now make 10,000 TVs a day with 3 employees watching a factory where 20 years ago it was 1,000 TVs with 100 employees. 20 years ago I could teach 30 kids with one teacher. Now I can still teach 30 kids with one teacher. Because the teaching hasn't been able to achieve the same productivity gains as the rest of the economy it takes more relative resources over time. Again, you can argue the point if you'd like but it is simple, well understood and well accepted economics. The point of tax dollars is a good one, the idea should be that we spend less on certain areas over time because there are efficiencies gained in other sectors. Unfortunately this is not how government works and the gains in other sectors are not used for savings. This along with the fact that many traditional government services (Fire, Police, School, road maintenance) are the types of things that lag in efficiency gains make for an increasingly difficult problem over time. I don't have a good solution to the problem, but it is a much different problem than the one described by Cato. It should also be noted that Federal tax receipts are running way below historic norms and return to normal taxation levels would pretty much eliminate our budgeting problems so I have little sympathy with 'out of control spending' arguments at the Federal level. Again a different argument could be made for local spending, but that is not the argument Cato was making.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 1:21
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Lies, lies and damned statistics. This is a 20-year old report with a lot of suppositions but no real evidence. It primarily seems to be arguing a case for increasing education funding at a higher rate than the inflation rate, because education inflation runs higher than the rest of the economy. This is a typical public employee argument. This only works when tax revenues also grow faster than inflation. If it doesn't there comes a point when education simply becomes unaffordable for the taxpayer, as it the current case. The education system will not get a free lunch on this. They will need to make improvements with existing funding. I think most average Americans are fed up with throwing their tax dollars down this money pit with no visible return.
Posted on: 2011/7/8 0:52
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Here is a pretty good explanation of why measuring education costs using a standard inflation calculation is problematic. You run into the same issue in any area where it is difficult to keep up with productivity gains in industries that can take advantage of automation.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs97/97535/97535jx1.asp Until we can start replacing teachers with robots you're going to see this sort of spending increase, and similar increases in any type of service industry that is not taking advantage of automation. This is elementary economics and is well understood by the smart folks at Cato, but it doesn't play well with their message.
Posted on: 2011/7/7 19:19
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They've been wrong on countless occasions throughout the years. Slanted opinions, skewed warped perspectives. I really have no desire to elaborate on the tons of pieces written about this subject. Feel free to read this interesting piece by one of my favorite authors: http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2006/05/cato-hypocrisy.html
Google "Cato Institute is wrong" and feel free to peruse some of the million plus returns if you so want, I certainly don't need any more reinforcement to understand what they do.
Posted on: 2011/7/7 18:15
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Do you know them for getting their facts wrong, - or do you just disagree with them politically? If it is the former, can you give me an example? If it is the latter, than you should not deny yourself an information just because you do not like the messenger. Even when you want to attack the messenger, hurting yourself is not the way to do it.
Posted on: 2011/7/7 11:54
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to be fair, the cato institute could tell me the sky is blue and i'd be skeptical. their skein is.... interesting, to be polite.
Posted on: 2011/7/7 7:58
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This graph shows you a straightforward comparison of how much the spending grew - vs. how much the results improved. If it shows visual spike - it is because THERE IS a spike. Quote: Percent change means that in 2006, the federal government spent less than twice as much as it did 36 years earlier. No, sorry, Arithmetic teaches us that growth by 190% means "almost THREE times bigger", not two. Quote: The graph does not take into account inflation, Strike two! it DOES take inflation into account, - this is an inflation-adjusted graph, as it is clearly indicated in the title. Guess, your Reading is no better than your Arithmetic, huh? Quote: nor does it account for the increase in enrollment due to population increase. Strike three!!! It DOES account for the population increase, - as the title says, it is spending per pupil. Quote: The Cato Institute: So, let's review. You attacked their numbers - and you made one mistake in arithmetic, and two in reading comprehension (by the way, thanks for this real-life example of the product quality that our education money are buying). You have no data that would show that their calculations are wrong. What you do have, - is a vile ad hominem. You can't attack the message, - so you go for the messenger.
Posted on: 2011/7/7 3:08
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