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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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We could have some of these 'bad boys' to shuttle people across the water instead of a bridge or TUNNEL!

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Posted on: 2007/9/13 21:57
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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ianmac47 wrote:
...a trans Hudson Pedestrian Bridge linking Jersey City to Manhattan would be modernity encapsulated, a monument to the new Jersey City, to technology, a link to the future.


Modernity encapsulated would be a giant FAX machine (invented in JC) that turn me into a telephone signal and reassemble me at my office in Manhattan, if it could iron my shirt and shine my shoes as part of the deal that would be modernity encapsulated with truffles.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 21:45
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I certainly agree there are more important transportation projects, both real -- Second Avenue Subway, Trans Hudson Tunnel for instance -- and imaginary -- 7 Train extension to NJ, Southern subway connecting Manhattan and Staten Island's North shore line via Jersey City and Bayonne.

But the first point is transportation would not be the primary goal, more of an accidental benefit. Projects like this are architectural pornography that in themselves attract tourists. The Brooklyn Bridge is for instance, a major tourist attraction with huge economic benefits derived directly from tourism, independently of the fact that it is also a bridge for vehicle and pedestrian traffic, and walking across the bridge is free.

Yes, indeed, the bridges I listed are much smaller in scale than anything that would be needed to cross the Hudson. But that's the whole point-- build something grand. Make it the biggest and the best, a symbol of the modern age, a symbol of American industrialism.

Such a bridge would also be a symbol of Jersey City's rebirth. Brooklyn might have the Brooklyn Bridge steeped in its own history and mythology and lore, but a trans Hudson Pedestrian Bridge linking Jersey City to Manhattan would be modernity encapsulated, a monument to the new Jersey City, to technology, a link to the future.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 21:35
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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The bridges you posted are beautiful.

The only problem is that they are maybe at most 30 feet off the ground or water below. They are also not close to covering a span of almost a mile. The amount of structure that would be required to span a mile across the Hudson, with the lowest point on the bridge being 210 feet from the surface of the water is unbelievable. It would have to be a suspension bridge, and it would also need to be over 30 stories high. Suspension bridge spans are close to flat, with maybe a slight arch. That means that in order to be able to cross at 210 feet high, the person would have to walk up 20 flights of stairs, and back down another 20 on the other side. Who the heck would want to do that?

All of the landmarks you mentioned generate revenue. Usually enough to recoup the initial investment over time, as well as the maintenance for the year. Are you going to charge people to cross this bridge? It's going to be a toll pedestrian bridge across the Hudson? People will have to pay how much? $10-$15 for the privilege of walking up 20 flights, another mile, and then back down another 20 flights? Who are the people that are going to do this? People commuting to the city aren't. I can't see tourists doing it. Maybe families on the weekend? If you don't charge people, where is the money going to come from for this project? There is no point to it when there are hundreds of more important public transportation projects that are lacking funding.

Are you talking about other economic benefits like increased tourism? Nobody visiting Manhattan is going to cross this bridge to come to Jersey City and spend money. Why would they? Are tourists clamoring to get to Brooklyn or Queens? Not that I've ever heard. People who live in Jersey City and are going to New York City already have a half dozen ways to get to the city. Why would they choose this one, that has no benefits, other than to stretch their legs. Is that worth the millions and millions of dollars this would cost? No one in their right mind would think it is.

I don't lack vision. I love development and progress and take pride when beautiful public works are built in the area. I love all of the new building going up in Jersey City, and I can't wait to see what the skyline is going to look like 10 years from now.

So, I still stand by my statement that this project makes no sense, any way you look at it.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 20:59
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Just out of curiosity: where would a pedestrian bridge - let's say crossing the river at Exchange Place - have to start on the Jersey side in order to not be too steep to be unwalkable? Where would it end on the NYC side? Wouldn't the NJ side have to be surrounded by Park N'Walks to really dent PATH crowding? Wouldn't a pedestrian bridge have to be ADA compliant, therefore making it almost necessary to build a people mover rather than a walkway (this would also allow for a steeper gradiant). Wouldn't it just be easier to make one lane of the Holland Tunnel a pedestrian walkway, isolated from the fumes and assorted other dangers.

***********************************************
With respect to those who question the chintziness of our current public building habits think about:
The PATH terminal at WTC (Calatrava has replaced Fidel Castro as my favorite Marrano because of this project, btw).
The Fulton Street Subway project
The proposed Gare de Moynihan
The (lavish) new entrance to the Brooklyn Museum
just four off the top of my head....

Posted on: 2007/9/13 20:59
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Not one of those pedestrian bridges you link to accomodates for the type of major sea traffic on the hudson, nor is any one of them even remotely as long as the span between lower manhattan and the JC waterfront.

and trying to compare the economics of monuments (and gifts) to transportation infrastructure is an apples and zebras game.

oh, and ask the South Dakota tourism board if there are any positive economic effects of Mt. Rushmore.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 20:47
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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emergent wrote: In order to do this the bridge would have to be 210 ft. tall to allow the tallest cruise ships to pass under. That would be an eyesore to say the least, not to mention it isn't needed, and it would make less than zero economic sense.
You lack vision. Humber River Bridge New Castle Amgen Helix Campo Volantin Gateshead Also, it would not make "zero economic sense." The economic benefits would simply not be as immediate and direct. To put it another way, what are the economic benefits of building the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower, the Gateway Arch, or Mt. Rushmore?

Posted on: 2007/9/13 20:33
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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In order to do this the bridge would have to be 210 ft. tall to allow the tallest cruise ships to pass under. That would be an eyesore to say the least, not to mention it isn't needed, and it would make less than zero economic sense.


I wouldnt say it isnt needed. I mean it would be very helpful to reduce the passenger load on the PATH by allowing walkers and bikers to commute to Manhattan every day, and it wouldnt need to be an eyesore. Well designed ped-bridges can be some of the most beautiful engineered structures if done right. However, I cant argue it not making much economic sense for either city and therefore will prob never happen.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 20:27
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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edge wrote:
I've always thought a pedestrian bridge from jc to manhattan would be great. i'm guessing you would need two towers as tall as the ones on the gw bridge. but they could be thin as it would only be supporting a small/light pedestrian walk way. its not happening in our lifetime. The eu would have to invade for that to become a reality.


In order to do this the bridge would have to be 210 ft. tall to allow the tallest cruise ships to pass under. That would be an eyesore to say the least, not to mention it isn't needed, and it would make less than zero economic sense.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 19:53
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Xerxes wrote:
I KNOW this is akin to the words of Karl Marx but how about CLOSING THE MARINA to anything that will not fit under whatever bridge is used.

Or better yet, CLOSING THE MARINA. Period.

That marina is in a state park. There is no private interest involved that cannot be legally "taken."

Access by foot to one of the very rare inter-city State Parks should not be held hostage to yacht owners desires for convenient cruising. Let them park at some ramshackle down near Keansburg...or Tierra del Fuego!


There's a good idea. That way we can shut down the water taxi and ferry service as well. Where do they get their gas? Liberty Landing Marina, the only convenient place to get gas in the area. Not to mention the coast guard, as well as the Jersey City fire boats that leave from there.

And how are yacht owners "holding Liberty State Park" hostage? Depending on where you're coming from, it would be just as long to walk across a bridge near the memorial, as it would to walk down Jersey Avenue.

Sure, it would be nice to have a bridge from the end of Washington Street across the canal. That would make it really convenient for people that live right there. What about people that are going to live in Gull's Cove? I mean they would have to walk a half mile in either direction to get to Liberty State Park. Now that's not fair. Let's put a bridge at the end of Marin as well. Actually, why don't we just fill in the canal?

Yacht owners have as much right to convenient cruising as you do to a way to conveniently get to Liberty State Park. Guess what? The way it is now is convenient for everyone. Also, don't forget, those yacht owners still have to get to their yachts, which means either driving or walking to the park - just like everyone else.

Your last comment about "some ramshackle" really just shows that you're post is less about what is fair and convenient for everyone, and more about your disdain for people who have the luxury of being able to own a yacht.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 19:35
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I think a lot of people are overlooking the huge economic impact closing the canal to boat traffic would have. Further, its not as though this canal is new, considering its been here before any of our grandparents were even born.

The walkway will eventually span from Essex Street up the entirely length of the north bank of the canal to Jersey Avenue, which at present has a pedestrian bridge. On the south bank, looking at google's satellite image, there appears that there is a walkway extending from Jersey Avenue all the way to Liberty State park. So really, at the moment, the only obstacle to walking from LSP to Newport is the Liberty Harbor section of the walkway.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 18:59
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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sporkster wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
They can't understand that having a footbridge across the canal (or even two) would make JC a lot nicer place for those without cars or for those who simply like to walk and bike.


Exactly. I really think that if there was a continuous, uninterrupted pedestrian walkway from Hoboken all the way to the tip of LSP, a LOT more people would use the park.


I don't have a car, but, again, I think it's really important to remember that the canal is the end of what used to be a huge, really important canal system. Preserving the ability of boats to get up the remaining bit of the canal is important.

Compromise solution: I'm having a hard time picturing the canal, but is it possible that the sailboats (which have keels that go down really far) tend to cluster up near the entrance of the canal?

If so, someone could put in a pedestrian/bike bridge at the foot of, say, Grove Street. The walk would be more convenient even for Paulus Hook pedestrians, and the bridge would not have to be high enough to accommodate
sailboats.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 14:14
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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hero69 wrote:
They can't understand that having a footbridge across the canal (or even two) would make JC a lot nicer place for those without cars or for those who simply like to walk and bike.


Exactly. I really think that if there was a continuous, uninterrupted pedestrian walkway from Hoboken all the way to the tip of LSP, a LOT more people would use the park. The park as it is now is a barren stretch of underutilized land.

I'm sorry, but when you're running/biking, it is ridiculous to stop and wait for a ferry that is literally a 15 second ride. Or to detour all the way up a very construction-laden Grand Street to Jersey Avenue. I say either ban large boats from the Marina and figure out how to build a bridge/tunnel across Morris Canal. A bridge over the Hudson seems a lot more complex in scope, but the Canal is not that wide, people!

Posted on: 2007/9/13 13:47
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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edge wrote:
I've always thought a pedestrian bridge from jc to manhattan would be great. i'm guessing you would need two towers as tall as the ones on the gw bridge. but they could be thin as it would only be supporting a small/light pedestrian walk way. its not happening in our lifetime. The eu would have to invade for that to become a reality.


Probably would not need to be as tall as the GWB for multiple reasons. First, GWB weight load is many times greater than a pedestrian bridge. There are two decks of traffic already, and the capacity to build another level or a rail line. GWB was built in era when bridges were built to last. Second, advances in ultra light materials and composites would allow for a lighter bridge. The steel cables of yesteryear have been outdated by carbon nanotubes. Those two considerations aside, a bridge at this end of the Hudson would still need to be high enough for massive cruise liners to among other ships to pass under and access the harbor.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 3:19
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I've always thought a pedestrian bridge from jc to manhattan would be great. i'm guessing you would need two towers as tall as the ones on the gw bridge. but they could be thin as it would only be supporting a small/light pedestrian walk way. its not happening in our lifetime. The eu would have to invade for that to become a reality.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 2:33
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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how about the New York / New Jersey 9/11 Victims Memorial Bridge?

for me it would connect on many levels.

prior to the Holland Tunnel, I believe there were proposals for a bridge, I remember seeing an old postcard rendering of the anchorage in JC. also a proposed bridge on the northside of Hoboken, which I believe actually has some remaining foundations in backyards...

this could be the project of projects, and be the signature span of the East Coast Greenway .... thru the Bergan Arches, on top of the 6th Street Embankment, over the river and linking up with the Hudson River Greenway.

maybe this is your calling .....

I am on board, go for it.


Quote:
ianmac47 wrote:

Meanwhile, speaking of pedestrian bridges, I'd love to see a pedestrian bridge linking lower Manhattan and Jersey City. Sure, its a pipe dream and all, but how fantastic would that be? The views would be incredible, and it would be a major tourist attraction much like the Brooklyn Bridge, not to mention a useful evacuation route should the PATH be out of service. All this would be especially if some celebrity starchitect designed it. Of course, in this pragmatic age of ours, I don't see any government body stepping forward to realize an ambitious plan simply for the sake doing it.



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ianmac47 wrote:
Yes, and no. Various American governments have: Mt. Rushmore, St. Louis Gateway Arch, Washington Monument-- these are all without purpose, other than to demonstrate technical abilities or honor a person or cause. At least a trans-Hudson pedestrian bridge would have the benefit of helping transport people between states. Of course though, you're right that contemporary governments have little interest in funding projects like this.

Posted on: 2007/9/13 2:12
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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nafco wrote:
This isnt Europe.

Of course this isn't. This is South America or Africa, places where communities successfully prevent any meaningful community effort. :)

Posted on: 2007/9/12 22:33
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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nafco wrote:
basically because no one would pay for a huge public project that doesnt generate any money. This isnt Europe.
Unless they could have a toll at the end of the bridge so walkers would have to pay to use it.


Yes, and no. Various American governments have: Mt. Rushmore, St. Louis Gateway Arch, Washington Monument-- these are all without purpose, other than to demonstrate technical abilities or honor a person or cause. At least a trans-Hudson pedestrian bridge would have the benefit of helping transport people between states. Of course though, you're right that contemporary governments have little interest in funding projects like this.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 21:46
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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basically because no one would pay for a huge public project that doesnt generate any money. This isnt Europe.
Unless they could have a toll at the end of the bridge so walkers would have to pay to use it. however, I agree this would be a great way to walk/bike into the city quickly and easily.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 19:28
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I think a footbridge over the Hudson would be a fantastic idea and a great way to reduce crowding on the PATH trains. Why can't they have a giant footbridge linking a pier from each side jetting out into the Hudson.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 16:18
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Look, don't get me wrong. I love foot bridges. I think a bridge over the canal would be interesting. Consider the impact of a bridge. Either one, its low and closes boat traffic to the Marina, which is not a good idea economically. Or two, a bridge would need to be high enough to allow boats to pass under, which has its own obstacles. Meanwhile, the river walkway will eventually extend beyond essex street when LHN is completed. I think a better use of time and resources would be to pursue 1. completing this walkway sooner, rather than waiting for LHN to be built out to the canal, and 2. building a walkway along the southern bank of the canal from Jersey Ave to LSP.

Meanwhile, speaking of pedestrian bridges, I'd love to see a pedestrian bridge linking lower Manhattan and Jersey City. Sure, its a pipe dream and all, but how fantastic would that be? The views would be incredible, and it would be a major tourist attraction much like the Brooklyn Bridge, not to mention a useful evacuation route should the PATH be out of service. All this would be especially if some celebrity starchitect designed it. Of course, in this pragmatic age of ours, I don't see any government body stepping forward to realize an ambitious plan simply for the sake doing it.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 15:37
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Xerxes -
You have to understand that many citiznes of Jersey City are from the backlands where they do everything by cara nd the car is the center of their universe. They can't understand that having a footbridge across the canal (or even two) would make JC a lot nicer place for those without cars or for those who simply like to walk and bike.

It was probably people like that who were complaining about the Hudson River Park in Manhattan (spectacular) and the light rail (can someone say "crowded"?).

Posted on: 2007/9/12 15:22
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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ianmac47 wrote:
Yeah, well there already is pedestrian access at Jersey Avenue.


Yes, that's true...and of course there's nothing to stop people from walking to Kennedy Boulevard along Grand Street and then back into the park.
Perhaps one could walk along the walkway and then at Exchange Place take the Light Rail to the Park and then walk the mile or so back to the walway.
Or if money isn't an object one could be picked up by helicopter at Portside and be taken a couple hundred feet accross the Marina entrance.

Is there something inherently difficult to understand about the concept of a CONTINUOUS WALKWAY ALONG THE HUDSON?
If they could do it in Manhattan, I'm sure they could manage it in a burb like Jersey City...except for the cheaply greased palms in JC.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 14:25
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Xerxes wrote:
I KNOW this is akin to the words of Karl Marx but how about CLOSING THE MARINA to anything that will not fit under whatever bridge is used.

Or better yet, CLOSING THE MARINA. Period.


But the marina is beautiful, just about every photo of the New York Harbor includes some pretty little sailboats, and boats have been going up the Morris Canal for almost 200 years. If anything, I think the government ought to promote more recreational sailing on the Hudson River and try to reopen a lot more of the Morris Canal, not cage whatever bit of the canal is still left.

On the other hand: a big, huge problem with the marina is that it shuts out nonprofit sailing clubs, to benefit Offshore and other for-profit sailing clubs than can afford to pay high rents.

Possible solutions:

- Require the marina to offer much more frequent ferry service between Portside and the park. There's no reason a small ferry -- maybe even a rowboat -- shouldn't head over to Portside the instant a pedestrian or cyclist shows up on the dock.

- Require the marina to make a serious effort to support bare-bones, nonprofit sailing clubs, so that ordinary people get to sail.
-

Posted on: 2007/9/12 14:13
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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Yeah, well there already is pedestrian access at Jersey Avenue.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 14:08
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I KNOW this is akin to the words of Karl Marx but how about CLOSING THE MARINA to anything that will not fit under whatever bridge is used.

Or better yet, CLOSING THE MARINA. Period.

That marina is in a state park. There is no private interest involved that cannot be legally "taken."

Access by foot to one of the very rare inter-city State Parks should not be held hostage to yacht owners desires for convenient cruising. Let them park at some ramshackle down near Keansburg...or Tierra del Fuego!

Posted on: 2007/9/12 13:53
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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I would worry about tunnels -- first flooding and then having to walk through the hoboken one when this guy is heading home...

============================
He doesn't know how he lost his pants

Wednesday, September 12, 2007

HOBOKEN - Police found a drunk, half-naked man walking down the street, who said somebody robbed his pants and underwear, according to police reports.

Police saw a 44-year-old Jersey City man clad only in a blue polo shirt and slippers walking up Court Street, from First Street, on Sunday at 12:20 a.m., reports said. When cops asked what happened, the man admitted to having been drinking but could not say how much, police said.

The man, who was also holding a cell phone and wallet, said that "two guys" had removed his pants but could not remember exactly how the act was committed, reports said. Emergency services checked him over and found no visible sign of injury so he was released to his wife - who had been contacted through a friend using his cell phone, reports said.

CHARLES HACK

Posted on: 2007/9/12 11:25
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
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ianmac47 wrote:
What would be amazing over the morris canal connecting LSP to Paulus Hooke is a Curling Bridge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Curlingbridge.jpg

Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, and of course, in London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Heatherwick


Think tunnel from Washington St near the Korean War Memorial to LSP - Wide enough to have bikes pass each other. Submerge man size sewer pipes.

The same can be done with the Newport / Hoboken connection - only where they need to cross the water.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 10:33
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
#19
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There are way too many large boats going in and out of there to make that possible.

Posted on: 2007/9/12 3:48
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Re: NJ transit to build pedestrian bridge from Hoboken to Newport
#18
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What would be amazing over the morris canal connecting LSP to Paulus Hooke is a Curling Bridge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Curlingbridge.jpg

Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, and of course, in London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Heatherwick

Posted on: 2007/9/12 3:10
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