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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Yeah, the french know how to handle things.
We should learn from them.

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heights wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
I agree with you but practically speaking, I don't see much harm in them getting a prayer room.
However, we have to be careful because Muslims in the UK are more vocal than here and have been successfully fighting for gender segregation at public UK universities to accommodate their religion. This has led to a backlash.

If the Brits did not invade those moslem countries they would not have immigrated to England. Do like the French did with their colonies they ignored them, put them in a little corner of the country. They only hired them for simple labor jobs. Another words they pretended they weren't there.

Posted on: 2014/5/30 14:55
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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JCMan8 wrote:
I agree with you but practically speaking, I don't see much harm in them getting a prayer room.
However, we have to be careful because Muslims in the UK are more vocal than here and have been successfully fighting for gender segregation at public UK universities to accommodate their religion. This has led to a backlash.

If the Brits did not invade those moslem countries they would not have immigrated to England. Do like the French did with their colonies they ignored them, put them in a little corner of the country. They only hired them for simple labor jobs. Another words they pretended they weren't there.

Posted on: 2014/5/29 17:44
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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If he wanted it part of his legacy, he should donate the funds to building a student center and dictate what he wants. The school has no real reason to accommodate this inane request.




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caj11 wrote:
Well, I guess the Muslim Student Association at HCCC got their wish to one degree or another. See the Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/hudson.msa

Apparently it will be a room in the library that supposedly can be used by any religion. I think that religion has no place in a community college (or any public university) and it is a little ridiculous that the library has to give up space students used to use for studying and doing work, but at least it's not solely for Muslims. We can guess who will be using it the majority of the time though. Apparently one of the association members considers getting this room his "legacy". Whatever.

You need to pray, you should go to a temple, mosque, church or synagogue. There is at least one of each not too far away in Journal Square.


I agree with you but practically speaking, I don't see much harm in them getting a prayer room.

However, we have to be careful because Muslims in the UK are more vocal than here and have been successfully fighting for gender segregation at public UK universities to accommodate their religion. This has led to a backlash.

Here is an example. We must not let this happen in America.

http://www.channel4.com/news/universi ... -segregation-demo-protest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wome ... e-people-fighting-it.html

Posted on: 2014/5/29 17:26
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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caj11 wrote:
Well, I guess the Muslim Student Association at HCCC got their wish to one degree or another. See the Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/hudson.msa

Apparently it will be a room in the library that supposedly can be used by any religion. I think that religion has no place in a community college (or any public university) and it is a little ridiculous that the library has to give up space students used to use for studying and doing work, but at least it's not solely for Muslims. We can guess who will be using it the majority of the time though. Apparently one of the association members considers getting this room his "legacy". Whatever.

You need to pray, you should go to a temple, mosque, church or synagogue. There is at least one of each not too far away in Journal Square.


I agree with you but practically speaking, I don't see much harm in them getting a prayer room.

However, we have to be careful because Muslims in the UK are more vocal than here and have been successfully fighting for gender segregation at public UK universities to accommodate their religion. This has led to a backlash.

Here is an example. We must not let this happen in America.

http://www.channel4.com/news/universi ... -segregation-demo-protest

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wome ... e-people-fighting-it.html

Posted on: 2014/5/29 16:06
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Well, I guess the Muslim Student Association at HCCC got their wish to one degree or another. See the Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/hudson.msa

Apparently it will be a room in the library that supposedly can be used by any religion. I think that religion has no place in a community college (or any public university) and it is a little ridiculous that the library has to give up space students used to use for studying and doing work, but at least it's not solely for Muslims. We can guess who will be using it the majority of the time though. Apparently one of the association members considers getting this room his "legacy". Whatever.

You need to pray, you should go to a temple, mosque, church or synagogue. There is at least one of each not too far away in Journal Square.

Posted on: 2014/5/29 15:45
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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dtjcview wrote:
Let's say I'm interested in a 2-year science degree at HCCC, and don't care much for sports, music and the arts, why should I subsidize any of that? If it makes the difference between say $30k in debt versus $40k in debt at the end of 2 years - most students would opt-out if they could. But then I guess if it's a problem, people can choose lower-cost colleges like the online ones without sports programs.

@FAB - same question applies to providing rooms for religious services or prayers. Why should I pay for any of that?


Sport has always been an integral part of education - both the physical and mental aspects. This said, I agree that once you reach the university level, there should be an option to fees, but you will also find that sport at university level does generate a huge income from tv broadcasting rights, sponsorship, apparel and attendance to games; thus I can only assume a percentage of that income goes into the 'general consolidated' income of the university.

Individuals could look at attending universities that don't provide for a home team in any sports ... they are out there and not just online

Religious rooms / prayer rooms should be a user pays process / format at any school or public building, providing a sustainable space is available. I don't believe we should compare a religious group to a chess club looking for space!

Universities and Colleges should look to build a non-denomination building that caters to all religions and can be used by other groups or clubs - It would be hired out for a nominal fee and no one group can have exclusive use - It would be a compromise and generate some money for its maintenance and use.

Posted on: 2014/5/29 1:58

Edited by fat-ass-bike on 2014/5/29 2:26:37
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/khurram ... ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Muslim Is the New Catholic

Khurram Dara


On a summer evening in late July 1840, Catholic parents, teachers, and community members congregated in the basement of St. James Church in Lower Manhattan awaiting the address of Rt. Rev. Bishop John Hughes. Interrupted by applause throughout, Hughes stood before the crowd calling for what the largely immigrant Catholic population in the city longed for -- public funding of parochial schools. Their efforts were met with great hostility. Opponents claimed the public was in danger, the Constitution was at risk of subversion, and "union" of the Catholic Church and our government was imminent.

Nearly 175 years later, not unlike that summer night in 1840, students and their families assembled at P.S. 69 in Jackson Heights, Queens rallying to persuade the city to accommodate the Muslim population by closing school on Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha, the two most celebrated holidays in Islam. In response, critics have warned of the "Islamization of New York," and have accused Mayor Bill de Blasio, who vowed to add the holidays to the school calendar, of succumbing to "Islamic supremacist demands." Of course, this ignorance is hardly representative of public sentiment on the issue, but even reasonable onlookers may question why religion and public schools are said in the same breath -- is there not a "wall of separation" that stands between church and state?

In reality, New York City public schools have a rich and intertwined history with religion. As a matter of fact, the first public schools in the city were essentially Protestant. A predominantly Protestant population combined with strong anti-Catholic prejudice at the time had resulted in public schools that taught the King James Bible and used textbooks condemning Catholicism. Back then, unlike the rest of the state, city school funds were centrally disbursed by the City Council, with most funds being allocated to the Public School Society, a private nondenominational organization. The Society, despite its unaffiliated status, would fund schools that broadly (and in some cases, more pointedly) taught Protestant values, while "sectarian" schools, including those ran by Catholic organizations, were denied such funds. Angered by what had amounted to public funding of Protestant schools, Catholics, led by Bishop John Hughes (who would later become Archbishop of New York), sought funding for their schools.

In a period where many held deep bias against Catholicism, attempts to secure parochial school funding were met with heavy-handed accusations. Opponents appealed to existing prejudice and suggested these efforts would lead to the "Catholicization" of America. They were able to rationalize such fears by pointing to clergymen and other leaders who had called for Catholic domination in society. Relying on separation of church and state -- an idea that had lay dormant since Thomas Jefferson mentioned it in a letter decades earlier without much fanfare -- they argued that funding religious schools would be contrary to American values and policy.

The fight would last for years, with anti-Catholics scoring victories in some states through "Blaine Amendments" prohibiting direct government aid to religiously affiliated schools, and more generally, with the landmark Supreme Court decision in Everson v. Board of Education, which enshrined the "wall of separation between church and state" in American jurisprudence. Despite this, over time, social and cultural attitudes towards Catholicism would gradually change and the issue would take a backseat in national politics.

It's hard not to draw parallels between the trials and tribulations of Catholics in 19th century America (well documented in Phillip Hamburger's Separation of Church and State) and the current quandary of the American Muslim.

Senseless violence committed under the guise of religion has left Islam under significant scrutiny, and understandably so. But legitimate concern has too often morphed into unreasonable suspicion. Schools routinely accommodate religious holidays by closing so long as there is a "secular purpose" for doing so, such as high absenteeism. Critics however, have cast what appears to be a reasonable request as a scheme by Muslims to "Islamize" the nation. This, of course, is hard to envision considering existing constitutional restraints like the "secular purpose" requirement.

Undeterred by reality, opponents have highlighted extremist rhetoric from Muslim clerics abroad advocating Islamic supremacy to validate their bold claims, just as anti-Catholics did in the 19th century. If some clerics call for global Islamic domination, and a school closes on a Muslim holiday, then clearly this must be evidence of extremist goals coming to fruition, right? Of course, this is not the case; one is not necessarily caused by the other. Though logically problematic, this type of group attribution may seem subtle and inconsequential. But upon closer examination it may have more serious implications.

One of the most remarkable aspects of American society is its religious pluralism. Treating Muslims as one single, monolithic group handicaps the benefits of social and civic engagement that have allowed this pluralism to flourish. If they do engage, their actions will be construed as part of a supremacist conspiracy simply because other Muslims abroad have sermonized as much. And if they don't, lest we forget, their inaction and resulting isolation will be evidence of Islam's incompatibility with Americanism. This is the conundrum American Muslims face.

Islamic terrorism is, undoubtedly, a serious threat. "Islamization" of our country by American Muslims, who make up less than 1 percent of the population, is not. Though hardly an apples-to-apples comparison, we may be able to find solace in the fate of 19th century Catholic bigotry -- because these clever generalizations are increasingly convoluting public discourse, distracting from important policy issues, and by and large, wasting everyone's time.

Posted on: 2014/5/29 1:37
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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I just returned from the Freeholder's Meeting and I gave my opinion on a prayer room in the county college. Only time will tell what will happen.

Posted on: 2014/5/9 0:04
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Sports and music theoretically is something anybody at HCCC could participate in. I don't think HCCC has any sports teams anyway, nor do I believe there is a student orchestra or band.

A Muslim prayer room, by contrast, is limited to Muslims. A non-sectarian institution should not be required to provide something like that.

Posted on: 2014/5/8 0:48
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dtjcview wrote:
Let's say I'm interested in a 2-year science degree at HCCC, and don't care much for sports, music and the arts, why should I subsidize any of that? If it makes the difference between say $30k in debt versus $40k in debt at the end of 2 years - most students would opt-out if they could. But then I guess if it's a problem, people can choose lower-cost colleges like the online ones without sports programs.

@FAB - same question applies to providing rooms for religious services or prayers. Why should I pay for any of that?


HCCC doesn't have a sports or music program. But I guess you'd argue they should eliminate studio arts in some sort of cost saving measure? At my school athletics were funded indecently from the university. It did not factor into tuition cost at all.

These are two different issues, the prayer thing is all about separation of church and state. I doubt it would cause any sort of increased cost which is what you seem concerned about.

Posted on: 2014/5/8 0:39
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Let's say I'm interested in a 2-year science degree at HCCC, and don't care much for sports, music and the arts, why should I subsidize any of that? If it makes the difference between say $30k in debt versus $40k in debt at the end of 2 years - most students would opt-out if they could. But then I guess if it's a problem, people can choose lower-cost colleges like the online ones without sports programs.

@FAB - same question applies to providing rooms for religious services or prayers. Why should I pay for any of that?

Posted on: 2014/5/8 0:26
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Posted on: 2014/5/7 23:58
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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PremiumContent wrote:
...
You don't have to like it but it's been a part of the collegiate experience for over a 100 years. I just don't understand your point about "hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores". Especially since college sports probably more than anything in this country is fair on gender terms due to Title IX. Women have more opportunities here than anywhere else since there is a system for developing female athletes. This is the main reason why US Women dominate the Olympics.


Does college sports help with the cost of education, or simply add to massive college debt, along with their Olympic medals?


I don't think that's the way to look at it. Sports just like music, and art are important parts of education. I don't think they should be eliminated if they aren't profitable.

But to answer your question, at the major conference level sports programs generate income (Big Ten, SEC, etc.) as well as provide the schools with advertising and exposure through being on TV. At lower levels they probably break even or maybe lose money, I don't really know.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 23:44
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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PremiumContent wrote:
...
You don't have to like it but it's been a part of the collegiate experience for over a 100 years. I just don't understand your point about "hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores". Especially since college sports probably more than anything in this country is fair on gender terms due to Title IX. Women have more opportunities here than anywhere else since there is a system for developing female athletes. This is the main reason why US Women dominate the Olympics.


Does college sports help with the cost of education, or simply add to massive college debt, along with their Olympic medals?

Posted on: 2014/5/7 20:15
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Oh, it doesn't matter if you are gay or straight, but if you don't jump on the band wagon and loudly fetishize organized athletics... It really irritates me when people try to get me excited about the fact that there are gay athletes, although I suppose I should be philosophical and consider this a stepping stone to an out gay President, or... Pope!?


You don't have to like it but it's been a part of the collegiate experience for over a 100 years. I just don't understand your point about "hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores". Especially since college sports probably more than anything in this country is fair on gender terms due to Title IX. Women have more opportunities here than anywhere else since there is a system for developing female athletes. This is the main reason why US Women dominate the Olympics.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 19:28
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Oh, it doesn't matter if you are gay or straight, but if you don't jump on the band wagon and loudly fetishize organized athletics... It really irritates me when people try to get me excited about the fact that there are gay athletes, although I suppose I should be philosophical and consider this a stepping stone to an out gay President, or... Pope!?

Posted on: 2014/5/7 18:45
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Quote:

PremiumContent wrote:
Quote:

Wishful_Thinking wrote:
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PremiumContent wrote:
If you dedicate a room to prayer you are taking away a space that could be used for something actually worthwhile.

Please... how much space on any given campus is dedicated to athletics? For someone not into sports, that is a bigger waste of space.


Wrong, sports are no different than art and music and have a place in education. Plus they keep alumni engaged and money flowing (though probably not at the Community College level).

The issue here is that a room should not be dedicated for a single specific religion in a public institution.

Your biases precede you. Sports only have a role in education, insofar as they perpetuate hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores. I agree with you on the money angle, though - probably the worst reason the strangle-hold of organized sports on education is tolerated, as it keeps middle-aged former (and arm-chair) athletes involved.


I guess you feel that you can't be gay and an athlete. Tell that to Michael Sam and Brtiney Griener.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 18:09
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Quote:

PremiumContent wrote:
Quote:

Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Quote:

PremiumContent wrote:
If you dedicate a room to prayer you are taking away a space that could be used for something actually worthwhile.

Please... how much space on any given campus is dedicated to athletics? For someone not into sports, that is a bigger waste of space.


Wrong, sports are no different than art and music and have a place in education. Plus they keep alumni engaged and money flowing (though probably not at the Community College level).

The issue here is that a room should not be dedicated for a single specific religion in a public institution.

Your biases precede you. Sports only have a role in education, insofar as they perpetuate hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores. I agree with you on the money angle, though - probably the worst reason the strangle-hold of organized sports on education is tolerated, as it keeps middle-aged former (and arm-chair) athletes involved.


Be that as it may, the fact remains that our Constitution guarantees separation of church and state. It does NOT guarantee a separation of sports and state. So, hence the reason why it is OK for government and public institutions to allocate money/resources for sports, but not for religious purposes.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 17:57
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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PremiumContent wrote:
Quote:

Wishful_Thinking wrote:
Quote:

PremiumContent wrote:
If you dedicate a room to prayer you are taking away a space that could be used for something actually worthwhile.

Please... how much space on any given campus is dedicated to athletics? For someone not into sports, that is a bigger waste of space.


Wrong, sports are no different than art and music and have a place in education. Plus they keep alumni engaged and money flowing (though probably not at the Community College level).

The issue here is that a room should not be dedicated for a single specific religion in a public institution.

Your biases precede you. Sports only have a role in education, insofar as they perpetuate hetero-normative, patriarchal societal mores. I agree with you on the money angle, though - probably the worst reason the strangle-hold of organized sports on education is tolerated, as it keeps middle-aged former (and arm-chair) athletes involved.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 16:52
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Yvonne wrote:
...Jesus said a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and the two will be one flesh...it is his father intent.


A lot of what-ifs there open to interpretation. Like what if his parents are same-sex, or his wife is male? Who are you to judge the interpretation others choose?

Posted on: 2014/5/7 14:05
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There are people here who cannot read properly, for the record I have said numerous times the laws on same sex marriage makes no exceptions for bakers, florist or other people in the wedding business. Jesus said a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and the two will be one flesh...it is his father intent. I refused to call Jesus a liar. I choose to follow my faith not some laws of government. The reason I believe separation of church and state. Also Jesus said when speaking to the people, He said to do what the Pharisees say not what the Pharisees do. Jesus was referring to the Mosaic laws. The Mosaic laws do ban homosexuality. Do I personally care who someone marries? No really. But at the end of my life I will be judged by Jesus, not by laws of government. I do not care if I am attacked for putting God first. I don't care for government telling me how to practice my religion in any fashion including same sex marriage.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 13:01
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Posted on: 2014/5/7 12:28
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Posted on: 2014/5/7 5:09
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Jesus said give to Cesar what is Cesar and to God what is God. Cesar today is government or the state. So let's keep religion separate from the state. Actually, I was always grateful that this country believes in separation of church and state. I do not want this country telling me what to believe.


You are full of it, you were more than happy to have the government telling folks who they can marry when it came to gay marriage now your praising the lord because the country believes in separation of church and state. Really? I am not buying it and you come across as a hypocrite.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 4:48
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I'm surprised that the local synagogue doesn't open its doors for the muslim community during their times of pray - I'm sure the jewish community could make a buck out if it!

Posted on: 2014/5/7 2:46
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There are enough suggestions on this thread to address this question without causing offense to anyone. I don't know why the students didn't just apply the usual college rule of "ask forgiveness, not permission" - and find and use a vacant room a few times/day on their own initiative. Nobody would have cared. Unless it wasn't about the room, but the controversy.

(In my high school, the teachers frequently forgot their room keys and would send students to the principal to borrow the master key to open their rooms. Of course we made a copy, and could pretty much enter any room in the school at any time. We had no problem finding vacant rooms to hang out in. Initiative.)

Posted on: 2014/5/7 1:36

Edited by dtjcview on 2014/5/7 1:52:00
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Jesus said give to Cesar what is Cesar and to God what is God. Cesar today is government or the state. So let's keep religion separate from the state. Actually, I was always grateful that this country believes in separation of church and state. I do not want this country telling me what to believe.

Posted on: 2014/5/7 0:56
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Wishful_Thinking wrote:
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PremiumContent wrote:
If you dedicate a room to prayer you are taking away a space that could be used for something actually worthwhile.

Please... how much space on any given campus is dedicated to athletics? For someone not into sports, that is a bigger waste of space.


Wrong, sports are no different than art and music and have a place in education. Plus they keep alumni engaged and money flowing (though probably not at the Community College level).

The issue here is that a room should not be dedicated for a single specific religion in a public institution.



Posted on: 2014/5/7 0:47
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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PremiumContent wrote:
If you dedicate a room to prayer you are taking away a space that could be used for something actually worthwhile.

Please... how much space on any given campus is dedicated to athletics? For someone not into sports, that is a bigger waste of space.

Posted on: 2014/5/6 17:59
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Re: Muslim Prayer Room
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Frank_M wrote:
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
I'm struggling to understand why a college should provide a prayer room for any religion or reason. If you want to pray, that's great but do it on your own time and space. Colleges are for education.


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caj11 wrote:
If ANY religious group at HCCC or any other public institution wants to provide for a prayer space, let them provide for it out of their own money by renting a room. Colleges are for education.


Colleges almost always provide facilities that serve a variety of their students’ extracurricular interests and personal needs that are not directly related to education. Dedicating a room for prayer is not much different than dedicating a room for exercise, and similarly, has no influence over the rights and freedoms of students who do not participate.


Should they provide a room that is solely for Muslim prayer, or any other religion, and no one else can use for anything else? I think that is asking a bit much.

A multi-purpose room that gets used for many things where student religious groups come in and offer prayer services may be fine, but a room to be used by any one religion and no others is not only unreasonable, it is inappropriate for a non-sectarian institution funded by taxpayers.

Posted on: 2014/5/6 14:29
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