JERSEY CITY LIST - Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections [Real Estate]

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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brewster wrote:
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mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

Depends on rates, if you assume your buyer is borrowing and has a fixed monthly nut in mind. $12k more in tax means $1k less in borrowing power. At 4.5% on a 30 yr, $1000 gets you $200k. So assuming the buyer has the extra downpayment, they're budget is $200k less than it was pre-reval.

Yvonne, prove what you're saying, otherwise it's more lies. Tax liens are sold at auction and the residual after taxes and loans are paid is returned to the owner.

Were you around when the bulk lien was going on? I was, I had neighbors in the lien sale and the buyers of these liens did not want to sell back the liens. The way the law is written, you have two years to foreclose. A neighbor who lost his wife to cancer fell behind after reval, there was one salary then. He continued to pay his current taxes but the lien holder was avoiding him for the lien he brought. He was lucky that his nephew spent money to hire an attorney to sue to lien holder. Some of this actually wound up in Judge Velesquez court. I don't think the Jersey Journal was on line then, but I am sure this information is somewhere is the archives of the Jersey Journal. By the way, the lien holder was charging 18% plus other fees. I do not know why you insist you know everything. I was very involved in the reval with the people who was actually suing the city. The case was drop when McCann became mayor. But, you were not around in this inner circle.

Posted on: 2017/5/24 2:01

RichMauro

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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I remember when Jersey City was just a nice place to live.
Wha hoppen??

Posted on: 2017/5/24 1:24

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

Depends on rates, if you assume your buyer is borrowing and has a fixed monthly nut in mind. $12k more in tax means $1k less in borrowing power. At 4.5% on a 30 yr, $1000 gets you $200k. So assuming the buyer has the extra downpayment, they're budget is $200k less than it was pre-reval.

Or, it depends on demand.

Demand for properties in JC is high, and inventory is tight. Even extreme events like Sandy didn't make a dent in property values.

Quote:

Yvonne, prove what you're saying, otherwise it's more lies. Tax liens are sold at auction and the residual after taxes and loans are paid is returned to the owner.

Actually, Schundler did sell off the tax liens to an underwriter. It required state legislation to pass. There were issues with how it was handled, which make it rather unlikely that will be repeated.

What Yvonne doesn't mention is that despite the problems, it produced a 99% compliance rate.

She also doesn't recognize that thousands of homeowners are getting screwed; or that pushing back the revals makes the system unfair, which causes all the problems that she's crying about in the first place.

Posted on: 2017/5/24 0:43

135jc

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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heights wrote:
Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

I think psychology may play a bigger role than the calculator in that it is a tough sell to say you pay suburb level taxes without the good schools/safe streets/etc.

I hope they raise the taxes even higher so we can compete with the suburbs and hire more police. This is probably why most of the new development are rentals and not condos for sale.

No one is stopping you from contributing more to Jersey City. Last I checked the Police and fire departments were still taking donations.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 23:46

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

Depends on rates, if you assume your buyer is borrowing and has a fixed monthly nut in mind. $12k more in tax means $1k less in borrowing power. At 4.5% on a 30 yr, $1000 gets you $200k. So assuming the buyer has the extra downpayment, they're budget is $200k less than it was pre-reval.

Yvonne, prove what you're saying, otherwise it's more lies. Tax liens are sold at auction and the residual after taxes and loans are paid is returned to the owner.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 22:57

heights

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

mfadam wrote:
Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

I think psychology may play a bigger role than the calculator in that it is a tough sell to say you pay suburb level taxes without the good schools/safe streets/etc.

I hope they raise the taxes even higher so we can compete with the suburbs and hire more police. This is probably why most of the new development are rentals and not condos for sale.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 21:18

Get on your bikes and ride !

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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After the last reval, home values went down and everyone ran to tax court. It took about 10 years before everything stabilize. That is when former Mayor Schundler started his 'bunk lien' sale and sold homes assessed for $200,000 to $300,00 for the price of back taxes.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 20:58

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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Let's say the typical DTJC rowhouse goes from about 12K in taxes to 24K - a simple double. What do you think that does to post-Reval valuations?

Maybe 15% haircut?

I think psychology may play a bigger role than the calculator in that it is a tough sell to say you pay suburb level taxes without the good schools/safe streets/etc.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 20:51

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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

and overpriced

In direct correlation to being undertaxed.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 19:11

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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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MDM wrote:
This is one of the more egregious examples of a building being under assessed:

And overpriced.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 18:51

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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tictaktoe wrote:
Those who are in DTJC and have been sitting on their property since last reval are the ones who are REALLY GETTING AWAY WITH IT so far.

Just want to point out it's anyone who owns one of those undertaxed properties, especially in the last 10 to 20 years when the undertaxing has been most extreme. The assessment does NOT get reset upon sale like it does in some places.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 15:01

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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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wtf is wrong with people who feel reval is a suffering? Who here can't understand the difference between % and $$? Please enroll in a 5th-grade class.

1. As an individual, an avg DTJC resident who has been sitting on his/her property since last reval was getting away with paying lower than the fair share of taxes in light of their increasing property value even after paying the same rate (%).

2. As a neighborhood, DTJC was paying a higher share (in $$$) of state because there are a lot more residents with higher value now and also driven by recent transactions at current market value + not to forget new construction that has come up in the last 30 years on both rental and condo side (Yes, even after the abatement, $ amount becomes substantial for e.g. 1% of $1000 > 2% of $400)

What is common in the above two statements? Those who are in DTJC and have been sitting on their property since last reval are the ones who are REALLY GETTING AWAY WITH IT so far.

So they should STFU, pay up and everyone then starts from the same line. Simple.

If the taxes are too high, probably your home is too expensive for you to live in. Then, just sell it, monetize the gain and buy a place where you can pay the taxes.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 14:29

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Dolomiti wrote:
Actually, I don't understand the mechanisms that they used to calculate current property tax rates in between the revals. Hence the question.

Ok, I covered this in the Ballad of Billy & Tommy, but I'll try again. The actual assessments never changes between revals unless you do significant renovations. So the city raises the tax rate to match the rise in value otherwise they'd never account for inflation. That's how the actual rate is 7.7% not ~2%.

So the way they come up with that 7.7% number is they create a number for the difference between the assessed value and FMV of THE ENTIRE CITY. That's the "ratio", currently 23.66%. The assessment is supposedly 23.66% of FMV, but that's a guesstimate of the average for the whole city. And because that tax raise is for everyone, it's not accurate, and it gets less accurate over time.

If your ratio is less you're paying too little, if it's more you're paying too much. So when DT rose so much faster than anyone else they ended up radically undertaxed because the only mechanism to steer this ship off the rocks is the reval.

And for those really interested, new properties have their assessment set by taking the sale price and dividing by the ratio to get a number in line with everyone else. So newer ratable properties and heavily renovated ones (supposedly) will not see dramatic tax raises. The "supposedly" is that a certain amount of permits like a gut job should trigger a spot reval, but anecdotes are that some do not.

Posted on: 2017/5/23 0:53

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

The actual tax rate on the assessed value is 7.7% (as opposed to an effective rate applied to FMV), thus my calculator turns up $11,242 when you multiply $146k x 0.077.

Rithmatic, man. Do you get it that between revals they raise the rate not the assessments?

Actually, I don't understand the mechanisms that they used to calculate current property tax rates in between the revals. Hence the question.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 23:18

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

I don't have the actual numbers handy in front of me, but the assessed values are just about one fourth of the estimated value. In other words, the city thinks that property is worth about 650K. That is why the reval is long overdue.

I get that part. What I'm not clear on is:

? What is "current assmt" in the database
? Does it have any relation to the current property tax
? If not, then keeping in mind JC hasn't done a reval in nearly 30 years, what is the current tax amount based on?

Posted on: 2017/5/22 23:14

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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stateaidguy's website http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/

He's partisan and wants to cut our aid, but he's been very informative and fair in my experience of reading his posts and blog. Is the SFRA aid formula fair? No idea.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 22:51

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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ProdigalSon wrote:
What percentage on this list is optimal(I think it's 100%)? Additionally is it determining local fair share based on total value of homes in that town/district? Is that why so many beach towns with small populations, and even less school age students have virtually zero tax levy? It would be interesting to see the actual school budgets on this list as well.

Also one thing this list reinforces to me is that their are way to many municipalities in NJ.

If you want to know more about this go to stateaidguy's website. It's linked up thread. There is a complicated formula involving incomes demographics and real estate prices to determine local share.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 20:23

ProdigalSon

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

bodhipooh wrote:
Not to pick arguments, but aren't all those DTJC brownstones also "million dollar homes"? And, look how much of a stink they are raising over having to pay their fair share after 10 - 20 years of underpaying... I am sure in five years time, the city will be expected to shoulder a larger portion of the local BOE budget, and shit *will* hit the fan.

Was there an argument there? The issue of redistributing taxes to make school funding fair is not going away, but I believe sending JC taxes into the stratosphere to raise another $200m, like over 3.5%, won't happen. The economic damage would be catastrophic, dwarfing the reval because it would effect every unabated property, not just the older DT ones.

I find it telling that Monroe always ties the high budget to poor performance, like he'd be OK with it if it got results. That's unlikely. BTW Monroe, your portrayal of Millburn as a tax victim is nonsense. They're not far above JC in the list of Tax Levy as percentage of Local Fair Share for schools. JC:32.75% Milburn: 41.3%. There's plenty of towns underaided, neighboring W Orange is at 128.38%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... 1GBqhMuPDKDMTk/edit#gid=0
Linked from http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/

Does JC BOE need to be pulled apart and put back together? Absolutely. Every district in the state should be held accountable for where it's money goes, by outside auditors, every year. Maybe if we cut off the sweet juice the 599 districts will see the light of consolidating. The smoke and mirrors to make public money vanish pisses me off. Oh, and no district living on the state tit should get to make it's own worker contracts, including Millburn.

What percentage on this list is optimal(I think it's 100%)? Additionally is it determining local fair share based on total value of homes in that town/district? Is that why so many beach towns with small populations, and even less school age students have virtually zero tax levy? It would be interesting to see the actual school budgets on this list as well.

Also one thing this list reinforces to me is that their are way to many municipalities in NJ.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 19:50

MDM

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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This is one of the more egregious examples of a building being under assessed:

Resized Image

Posted on: 2017/5/22 19:30

bodhipooh

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Hmmm

So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

I don't have the actual numbers handy in front of me, but the assessed values are just about one fourth of the estimated value. In other words, the city thinks that property is worth about 650K. That is why the reval is long overdue. The market realities don't match the BS values being assumed. As a result, that property is paying about 1.85% of the assumed value. But, as you have shown, the reality is that they are paying under 1%. That's the type of property that will see a hefty increase in property taxes in 2018, likely getting a bill that is more than double their current levy. I really do wonder what will happen: the more I talk to people, the more I realize they are in denial as to what is coming in 2018. I still hear people saying things like "it's impossible, there is no way the city will allow this".

Posted on: 2017/5/22 18:04

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

The actual tax rate on the assessed value is 7.7% (as opposed to an effective rate applied to FMV), thus my calculator turns up $11,242 when you multiply $146k x 0.077.

Rithmatic, man. Do you get it that between revals they raise the rate not the assessments?

Posted on: 2017/5/22 16:43

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Hmmm

So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 15:30

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Posted on: 2017/5/22 3:37

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Oh, I forgot to mention. If you rent in JC, and your landlord's property taxes go up, do you think that will have any effect on your rent...?

Posted on: 2017/5/22 0:17

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

Bamb00zle wrote:
All this makes me even happier that I recently sold and moved to a rental. A tax rate of 2.1% on my former property would triple my taxes, and the impact on the property value would be severe, much more than the capital gains tax I'll pay.

Property taxes need to be adjusted to be fair. However, because of irresponsible actions by successive JC Administrations in avoiding a reval for 28 years it will be very painful. And when the State shifts more school costs to JC it will be worse. Even if that takes a couple of years, people will see it coming so it will hit property values.

The idea of a reverse mortgage to pay more tax to this dysfunctional City, particularly in view of a likely substantial hit to property values in the near future, has no appeal to me. The way I see it I've taken my gains and will wait.

Other factors are important to me as well. Transportation woes on NJT and PATH are only going to get a lot worse when all the over-development is completed. And with all those apartments becoming available and a softening NYC rental market the DT JC property market is going to look a whole lot different when those new assessment notices go out in about 12 months IMHO.

Uh huh fascinating

Hoboken completed its reval some time in 2013. Property values have gained 65% since January 2013. While JC RE prices are hardly guaranteed to increase under any circumstances, it's unlikely that the reval will seriously undermine property values in the long run.

Plus, the reval will be painful for some people -- and beneficial to others, namely the people who were carrying your water while you owned your place.

Thus, it seems highly unlikely that you can take the proceeds of your old apartment, and subtract the cost of rent (which is likely to increase next year), and buy back into the market in early 2019 without paying more. And properties that might be cheap? Those will have, wait for it... bigger tax bills, probably too big for you to want to pay.

We keep hearing people bitch about PATH, and problems keep not getting worse. Not to mention that by 2019 or so, at least some of the signal improvements will be phased in. And let's get real, it's going to be a lot easier to commute to NYC via the PATH train in 2019 than by driving or NJ Transit, and cheaper than taking a ferry (which will only benefit you if you live and work close to the ferry terminals) or a bus from the suburbs.

I.e. even if PATH sucks, everything else is probably gonna be worse.

Renting has some advantages. There are many viable reasons to sell a home and rent. Saving money by dodging a property tax increase that won't hit for about a year? It what may still be a hot market in the interim? Not sure that's one of them.

Posted on: 2017/5/21 23:55

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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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All this makes me even happier that I recently sold and moved to a rental. A tax rate of 2.1% on my former property would triple my taxes, and the impact on the property value would be severe, much more than the capital gains tax I'll pay.

Property taxes need to be adjusted to be fair. However, because of irresponsible actions by successive JC Administrations in avoiding a reval for 28 years it will be very painful. And when the State shifts more school costs to JC it will be worse. Even if that takes a couple of years, people will see it coming so it will hit property values.

The idea of a reverse mortgage to pay more tax to this dysfunctional City, particularly in view of a likely substantial hit to property values in the near future, has no appeal to me. The way I see it I've taken my gains and will wait.

Other factors are important to me as well. Transportation woes on NJT and PATH are only going to get a lot worse when all the over-development is completed. And with all those apartments becoming available and a softening NYC rental market the DT JC property market is going to look a whole lot different when those new assessment notices go out in about 12 months IMHO.

Posted on: 2017/5/21 17:58

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

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Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

2/3 of homeowners will pay their fair share, but 1/3 will not be affected - tax abated properties. So therefore, there will never be a fair share of taxes.

1) I was asking why brewster is asserting that there is some type of limit on the effectiveness or reductions via an appeal.

2) I call BS on the idea that 1/3 of Jersey City housing units are abated.

3) Regardless of anything with with abatements, the reval makes property taxes more fair. And contrary to Monroe's claim, despite the fact that it's going to negatively impact me personally, I still advocate not just for this reval, but for more frequent revaluations.

I don't make up these figure. I quote established figures. There was a time when it was 1/4 but all of the new development has pushed up these numbers. The ratable base of around $6 billion and nearly 3 billion is tax exempted. That figure excludes churches, schools, cemeteries, and public buildings.

Posted on: 2017/5/21 17:16

Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections

#98

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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

2/3 of homeowners will pay their fair share, but 1/3 will not be affected - tax abated properties. So therefore, there will never be a fair share of taxes.

1) I was asking why brewster is asserting that there is some type of limit on the effectiveness or reductions via an appeal.

2) I call BS on the idea that 1/3 of Jersey City housing units are abated.

3) Regardless of anything with with abatements, the reval makes property taxes more fair. And contrary to Monroe's claim, despite the fact that it's going to negatively impact me personally, I still advocate not just for this reval, but for more frequent revaluations.

Posted on: 2017/5/21 16:55