dtjcview wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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Also, small note about human nature. If someone isn't allowed to fully participate in a conversation and feels like they're being lectured to they just leave.
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That cuts both ways - when a proposed solution seems to involve replacing leaders that aren't lecturing the community on family planning and personal responsibility in the "right" way.

No doubt. But how do we avoid discussing family planning and personal responsibility when these two things are probably the most undeniable and significant ingredients that are missing in this situation?

SO...how does that square with your proposal to "kick out the PC police"? Who are they? Aren't they just people that disagree with a point of view?

devilsadvocate wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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Also, small note about human nature. If someone isn't allowed to fully participate in a conversation and feels like they're being lectured to they just leave.
...

That cuts both ways - when a proposed solution seems to involve replacing leaders that aren't lecturing the community on family planning and personal responsibility in the "right" way.

No doubt. But how do we avoid discussing family planning and personal responsibility when these two things are probably the most undeniable and significant ingredients that are missing in this situation?

dtjcview wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
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Also, small note about human nature. If someone isn't allowed to fully participate in a conversation and feels like they're being lectured to they just leave.
...

That cuts both ways - when a proposed solution seems to involve replacing leaders that aren't lecturing the community on family planning and personal responsibility in the "right" way.

devilsadvocate wrote:
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Also, small note about human nature. If someone isn't allowed to fully participate in a conversation and feels like they're being lectured to they just leave.
...

dtjcview wrote:


Yes I'm interested in a reasoned debate.

@Devilsadvocate - while we're kicking out the PC police, can we also kick out the over-simplistic scripts on causes and solution?

JCMan8 wrote:
I foolishly thought you were being honest when you claimed you were genuinely interested in what others have to say. Your mind is quite closed, and all you wanted to do was spout the same tired talking points. Everything you say stems from the notion that these people have no control over their actions, and are simply byproducts of harmful factors that surround them. Bullshit. You have to play the cards you are dealt in life, and while it is undeniable that some start at a (sometime extreme) disadvantage, you offer no hope at all, just excuses.

You apparently completely fail to grasp the distinction between culture, which is a series of learned, voluntary behaviors, and nature, which is inherent.

Your defense of what "they" say on education is indefensible. Maybe one reason the US ed system sucks for a particular group is that this group has no interest in furthering their own education? That's what Obama was talking about with the "acting white" bit, but your closed mind did not acknowledge his point.

And the sad thing is how you treat personal responsibility as a "narrative," instead of a concrete concept that literally applies to everyone in this country.

Finally, I note that you failed to offer a single concrete solution in this thread. Unless you want to count your welfare scheme which subsequently was proven not to work. So have fun trotting out your schtick of half-baked analysis and excuses and continue to watch as literally nothing improves.

Debates about the status and progress of black families in the United States started before the Moynihan report and have clearly raged since. The report focused on how black family structure contributed to a host of factors that all impeded progress toward social equity. In the decades since its release, many of the social trends that concerned Moynihan have worsened for blacks and nonblacks alike. Today it is clear that no one factor by itself holds the key to economic and social progress. Policymakers, community leaders, and individuals themselves must act to enhance economic opportunities and social equity for black men and families. Otherwise, we may spend the next 50 years lamenting our continued lack of progress.

JCMan8 wrote:
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Please point to one post in this thread which implied "it's simply nature that can't be 'fixed.'" No need to lie or create scarecrows to support your position. And are you seriously suggesting it isn't worthwhile to try and fix an easily identifiable and destructive correlation?

It's ironic that you previously assailed others for lack of "independent thought" and parroting a "party line," yet you don't see any hypocrisy in trotting out the Democratic "party line" on this issue.

Predictably, you listed everything but the kitchen sink yet failed to mention even a whiff of personal responsibility. Or a destructive culture.

You cannot be intellectually honest in approaching this issue and fail to mention an entrenched culture that glorifies violence and promiscuity, and abhors education. You just can't.

You do touch on the biggest factor - single parent families - yet you ask the incorrect question. You say "what causes those family break-ups?" When the reality is there was never a "family" to be broken up to begin with. The verified statistic is 72% of African American children are born out of wedlock. That means a guy who knocks up a woman and splits, because he doesn't want the responsibility of fatherhood. What causes that? Lack of personal responsibility coupled with a culture that condones and encourages this behavior.

Also note that this influences some of your other factors, such as level of gangs. It is also documented that those who grow up in single-parent households (where the single parent is busy working, leaving an empty house) are more likely to join gangs.

And "standard of education" makes no difference when the dominant black culture is for blacks to shun other blacks who try to further their education as "acting white." Don't take my word for it, why not listen to Obama himself?

So I will repeat that role models and leadership is a tangible, easily identifiable factor that I think is essential to fixing a destructive culture.

dtjcview wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
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A culture change simply needs to happen as a prerequisite for meaningful lasting improvement. Exactly how to accomplish this is extraordinary complex and difficult.

One thing that would go a long way is strong, true leadership in the African American community. I strongly believe that they simply do not have enough upstanding role models to look up to. People like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are complete frauds, simply looking for opportunities to line their pockets rather than benefit their community.

Case in point, I don't think either (or any other of their ilk) have uttered one word in condemnation of the recent cop-killing or the subsequent "shrine" worshipping him. The only time you see these folks come out is when a cop (usually wrongfully) assaults a member of the African American community. In this way, they constantly generate negative emotions in their followers, such as victimization and anger, instead of positive ones such as education or self-improvement.

True leaders and role models can advocate for common-sense practices that will lead to betterment of the overall community, such as the stressing the importance of using education to get ahead, or the value in not having kids at too young an age and promoting condom use.

So I think one priority should be focused on identifying and promoting more positive role models, who in turn can spread productive messages. And changing the status quo and minimizing the influence of the current "leaders."

Role model and leadership is certainly an area that could be explored.

The problem I have with the News 12 reporters comments, and with some of the other posts on the thread, is focusing on one correlation, and implying if we fix that, we fix the problem. Or worse and implying that it's simply nature that can't be "fixed".

There are a lot of correlations between crime:
- level of poverty
- level of drug sales and use
- standard of education
- availability of jobs
- strength of community policing and overall community support
- "broken windows"
- access to quality healthcare, child and mental health services, rehab
- quality of housing
- level of gangs
- sentencing terms, and prison population

The problem doesn't have one simple root cause, nor one simple easy solution. To me pointing out the single parent percentages, is like pointing out the correlation between ice cream sales and murder rates - except that I might speculative that I can reduce crime rates more by handing out free AC units and electric, than handing out condoms.

The issue is more complex than that. Granted, single parent families is likely a contributing factor, but probably one of many factors, and we should also be asking what causes those family break-ups.

JCMan8 wrote:
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A culture change simply needs to happen as a prerequisite for meaningful lasting improvement. Exactly how to accomplish this is extraordinary complex and difficult.

One thing that would go a long way is strong, true leadership in the African American community. I strongly believe that they simply do not have enough upstanding role models to look up to. People like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are complete frauds, simply looking for opportunities to line their pockets rather than benefit their community.

Case in point, I don't think either (or any other of their ilk) have uttered one word in condemnation of the recent cop-killing or the subsequent "shrine" worshipping him. The only time you see these folks come out is when a cop (usually wrongfully) assaults a member of the African American community. In this way, they constantly generate negative emotions in their followers, such as victimization and anger, instead of positive ones such as education or self-improvement.

True leaders and role models can advocate for common-sense practices that will lead to betterment of the overall community, such as the stressing the importance of using education to get ahead, or the value in not having kids at too young an age and promoting condom use.

So I think one priority should be focused on identifying and promoting more positive role models, who in turn can spread productive messages. And changing the status quo and minimizing the influence of the current "leaders."

dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Mostly, that the kids are brought up in poverty because of absentee fathers who make bad decisions to become sperm donors to children that they don't want to parent. The cop killer's wife said he'd be home maybe 2 nights a week. Tough to be a gang banger and a good dad I suppose.

Add the kind of new 'morality' that seems to celebrate this type of behavior-Shawn Kemp, and Antonio Cromartie who has 4 kids with his wife, and 8 others with SEVEN different other women. Or Travis Henry, former Buffalo Bill, with 11 kids by 10 women. And all those sports stars end up broke and don't support all those kids.

These anecdotes mean nothing.

If and when you are capable of independent creative thought, start understanding cause and effort, and stop simply cutting, pasting and parroting Republican party line, people on this forum might give you some credibility.

dtjcview wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Mostly, that the kids are brought up in poverty because of absentee fathers who make bad decisions to become sperm donors to children that they don't want to parent. The cop killer's wife said he'd be home maybe 2 nights a week. Tough to be a gang banger and a good dad I suppose.

Add the kind of new 'morality' that seems to celebrate this type of behavior-Shawn Kemp, and Antonio Cromartie who has 4 kids with his wife, and 8 others with SEVEN different other women. Or Travis Henry, former Buffalo Bill, with 11 kids by 10 women. And all those sports stars end up broke and don't support all those kids.

These anecdotes mean nothing.

If and when you are capable of independent creative thought, start understanding cause and effort, and stop simply cutting, pasting and parroting Republican party line, people on this forum might give you some credibility.

Monroe quoted Obama, not a Republican. Since you can't address the merits, you slam the "Republican party line," because attacking the perceived messenger is far easier than addressing the message.

But let me guess, if you ever decided to address the merits, it would involve casting a wide net of blame but curiously would omit any whiff of personal responsibility.

What merits? Let's hear your thoughts on the subject - genuinely interested if you can add anything to the debate that's not simply a cut and paste. What are you and Monroe actually proposing? More condoms and lectures? What?

JCMan8 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Mostly, that the kids are brought up in poverty because of absentee fathers who make bad decisions to become sperm donors to children that they don't want to parent. The cop killer's wife said he'd be home maybe 2 nights a week. Tough to be a gang banger and a good dad I suppose.

Add the kind of new 'morality' that seems to celebrate this type of behavior-Shawn Kemp, and Antonio Cromartie who has 4 kids with his wife, and 8 others with SEVEN different other women. Or Travis Henry, former Buffalo Bill, with 11 kids by 10 women. And all those sports stars end up broke and don't support all those kids.

These anecdotes mean nothing.

If and when you are capable of independent creative thought, start understanding cause and effort, and stop simply cutting, pasting and parroting Republican party line, people on this forum might give you some credibility.

Monroe quoted Obama, not a Republican. Since you can't address the merits, you slam the "Republican party line," because attacking the perceived messenger is far easier than addressing the message.

But let me guess, if you ever decided to address the merits, it would involve casting a wide net of blame but curiously would omit any whiff of personal responsibility.

dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Mostly, that the kids are brought up in poverty because of absentee fathers who make bad decisions to become sperm donors to children that they don't want to parent. The cop killer's wife said he'd be home maybe 2 nights a week. Tough to be a gang banger and a good dad I suppose.

Add the kind of new 'morality' that seems to celebrate this type of behavior-Shawn Kemp, and Antonio Cromartie who has 4 kids with his wife, and 8 others with SEVEN different other women. Or Travis Henry, former Buffalo Bill, with 11 kids by 10 women. And all those sports stars end up broke and don't support all those kids.

These anecdotes mean nothing.

If and when you are capable of independent creative thought, start understanding cause and effort, and stop simply cutting, pasting and parroting Republican party line, people on this forum might give you some credibility.

Monroe wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Mostly, that the kids are brought up in poverty because of absentee fathers who make bad decisions to become sperm donors to children that they don't want to parent. The cop killer's wife said he'd be home maybe 2 nights a week. Tough to be a gang banger and a good dad I suppose.

Add the kind of new 'morality' that seems to celebrate this type of behavior-Shawn Kemp, and Antonio Cromartie who has 4 kids with his wife, and 8 others with SEVEN different other women. Or Travis Henry, former Buffalo Bill, with 11 kids by 10 women. And all those sports stars end up broke and don't support all those kids.

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Ok. And what's your take on that? What your definition of "root cause" and solution?

Monroe wrote:
Read post 6 in this thread.

Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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The way to break the cycle of poverty is not to father kids you can't help support/raise.

And when has simply telling people what to do or not do ever worked? The real argument is what to do with welfare - whether to cut it, or shift incentives and pay more. And I think the answer is the latter.

Your conversation about welfare is already in place. It's called the Family Cap. New Jersey was actually the first to implement this policy and has been around for over two decades(Link).

Thanks for the links Pebble. I wasn't aware that these sorts of ideas had been kicked around for quite as long as they have been.

My basic problem with the kinds of numbers folks like Monroe throw out is that there is a big difference between between correlation and causation. And a lot of the research is funded by folks with an agenda, making it difficult to separate fact from fiction. Generally I think it's better to focus on outcomes, and managing those, than speculating and attacking those speculative causes. If we want to tackle causes, we need to leave our bias, prejudices, personal opinions and beliefs aside. And that can be tough for most.

Love the quote in the links btw: "If all the economists were laid end to end, they'd never reach a conclusion" (George Bernard Shaw).

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kjh2110/the-10-most-bizarre-correlations

http://science.howstuffworks.com/inno ... at-are-not-causations.htm

You mean the type of information that President Obama and I quote, right? Are you accusing him of 'bias, prejudice, personal opinion, and beliefs' as well? It wasn't 'tough' for Obama to use the same statistics I shared. What 'agenda' is he supporting?

VanVorster wrote:
Insightful and why conservatives are so myopic in trying to validate their prejudices and confirmation bias http://gawker.com/fox-news-wants-raci ... be-more-racist-1607266682

dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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The way to break the cycle of poverty is not to father kids you can't help support/raise.

And when has simply telling people what to do or not do ever worked? The real argument is what to do with welfare - whether to cut it, or shift incentives and pay more. And I think the answer is the latter.

Your conversation about welfare is already in place. It's called the Family Cap. New Jersey was actually the first to implement this policy and has been around for over two decades(Link).

Thanks for the links Pebble. I wasn't aware that these sorts of ideas had been kicked around for quite as long as they have been.

My basic problem with the kinds of numbers folks like Monroe throw out is that there is a big difference between between correlation and causation. And a lot of the research is funded by folks with an agenda, making it difficult to separate fact from fiction. Generally I think it's better to focus on outcomes, and managing those, than speculating and attacking those speculative causes. If we want to tackle causes, we need to leave our bias, prejudices, personal opinions and beliefs aside. And that can be tough for most.

Love the quote in the links btw: "If all the economists were laid end to end, they'd never reach a conclusion" (George Bernard Shaw).

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kjh2110/the-10-most-bizarre-correlations

http://science.howstuffworks.com/inno ... at-are-not-causations.htm

Pebble wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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The way to break the cycle of poverty is not to father kids you can't help support/raise.

And when has simply telling people what to do or not do ever worked? The real argument is what to do with welfare - whether to cut it, or shift incentives and pay more. And I think the answer is the latter.

Your conversation about welfare is already in place. It's called the Family Cap. New Jersey was actually the first to implement this policy and has been around for over two decades(Link).

dtjcview wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
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The way to break the cycle of poverty is not to father kids you can't help support/raise.

And when has simply telling people what to do or not do ever worked? The real argument is what to do with welfare - whether to cut it, or shift incentives and pay more. And I think the answer is the latter.

Monroe wrote:
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The way to break the cycle of poverty is not to father kids you can't help support/raise.

dtjcview wrote:
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JCMan8 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
When President Obama agrees in substance with the news reporter . . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06 ... -day-speech_n_107220.html

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

Obama has been a huge failure for the black community. He had a chance to get some great messages across to them, because they respect him and will listen to him. Such as stop having kids at such a young age out of wedlock because you are dooming them.

Instead he decides to make his infamous inflammatory "if I had a son, he'd look like Treyvon Martin" comment. Wasted opportunities.

Absolute number-wise, bet there are more white kids in single parent families than black, but it's the added toxic mix of poverty, joblessness, incarcerated parents that make it a bigger issue for the black community.

Talk and condoms are both cheap. How about shifting some of those tax breaks given to married couples into welfare incentives to have kids only in a stable family environment? Existing welfare is designed as a bare minimum to ensure kids don't starve - and perversely can act as an incentive to have kids. A little extra spend could shift that balance.