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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
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Quoting Mao and NPR on opinions about religion? You're providing me with amusement, not causing umbrage.


Mao the JCLister and OP, not the Chairman. The one that doesn't resort to artifice to support his/her beliefs. Keep laughing.

http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=351029



Posted on: 2014/6/23 22:05
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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It's not reasonable debate when you state that church services are designed to shut down critical thought. Care to explain that? Back it up perhaps? Where do you get that from? Was that part of Vatican XXXVVVIIIZZZ? You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.



I think Mao expressed it well in a post below. The services turn off left brain activity, and connect more to the right side of the brain. There's been a lot of recent work in neuroscience on finding a "god spot" within the right side of brain. Just go google it, or read books on the topic. Of course you can take that info any way you like. You seem to think I'm implying that RC services are some sort of mass hypnosis. I'm not, no more than I'm suggesting that music, dance, meditation, even TV can all engender the same state of mind - where critical thinking is turned off and the mind is quietened. Are church goers being hypnotized or are they simply connecting to god through a part of their brain? That's down to you to decide. And is that area of the brain evidence of god? That's also your call. You are entitled to continue to take refuge in your umbrage, as am I entitled to continue asking questions and making what I feel are reasonable observations.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741


Quoting Mao and NPR on opinions about religion? You're providing me with amusement, not causing umbrage.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 21:49
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
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It's not reasonable debate when you state that church services are designed to shut down critical thought. Care to explain that? Back it up perhaps? Where do you get that from? Was that part of Vatican XXXVVVIIIZZZ? You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.



I think Mao expressed it well in a post below. The services turn off left brain activity, and connect more to the right side of the brain. There's been a lot of recent work in neuroscience on finding a "god spot" within the right side of brain. Just go google it, or read books on the topic. Of course you can take that info any way you like. You seem to think I'm implying that RC services are some sort of mass hypnosis. I'm not, no more than I'm suggesting that music, dance, meditation, even TV can all engender the same state of mind - where critical thinking is turned off and the mind is quietened. Are church goers being hypnotized or are they simply connecting to god through a part of their brain? That's down to you to decide. And is that area of the brain evidence of god? That's also your call. You are entitled to continue to take refuge in your umbrage, as am I entitled to continue asking questions and making what I feel are reasonable observations.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741

Posted on: 2014/6/23 21:38
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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WhoElseCouldIBe wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Oh come on, do you really think religion is a bastion of critical thinking, anyway?


Of course not, but dtjc states that church hierarchy designs services to shut critical thinking down, which is silly and stupid. Now Obama telling us there is nothing going on at the IRS, keep moving-now that is designed to shut down critical thinking! :)

Posted on: 2014/6/23 21:15
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Oh come on, do you really think religion is a bastion of critical thinking, anyway?

Posted on: 2014/6/23 20:58
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Perhaps you should chill and go to the service.


Tell you what-I'll chill when you stop insulting the Catholic religion. Fair enough? I will pray for you anyway.


Despite what you said, you don't seem very amused...

Posted on: 2014/6/23 20:57
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Perhaps you should chill and go to the service.


Tell you what-I'll chill when you stop insulting the Catholic religion. Fair enough? I will pray for you anyway.


Insulting? And there I was thinking we were having a reasonable debate. Here's some right-wing thinking on the topic that might resonate with you:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/0 ... iveness_of_taking_of.html

"So my answer to the offended is, you have every right to be offended. Now, grow up. If you can't sit at the table of reasoned debate, go back to your bread and circuses. Let the adults figure out the problems of the world."


It's not reasonable debate when you state that church services are designed to shut down critical thought. Care to explain that? Back it up perhaps? Where do you get that from? Was that part of Vatican XXXVVVIIIZZZ? You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.




Posted on: 2014/6/23 20:49
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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As a recovering Catholic and Republican myself, I promise that there is hope for all of you. But first you must admit that you have a problem.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 20:30
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Perhaps you should chill and go to the service.


Tell you what-I'll chill when you stop insulting the Catholic religion. Fair enough? I will pray for you anyway.


Insulting? And there I was thinking we were having a reasonable debate. Here's some right-wing thinking on the topic that might resonate with you:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/0 ... iveness_of_taking_of.html

"So my answer to the offended is, you have every right to be offended. Now, grow up. If you can't sit at the table of reasoned debate, go back to your bread and circuses. Let the adults figure out the problems of the world."

Posted on: 2014/6/23 20:26
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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dtjcview wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Perhaps you should chill and go to the service.


Tell you what-I'll chill when you stop insulting the Catholic religion. Fair enough? I will pray for you anyway.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 17:19
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Monroe wrote:
What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.


Perhaps you should chill and go to the service.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 16:50
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind.

The Church designed the services to shut down critical thinking?? I'd say that was a criticism of some type.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 14:30
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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I'm amused that some would try and criticize the 'trance like' feeling you may get while opening your heart and mind in church-do the same people criticize the 'trance like' feeling many get while, say, doing transcendental meditation or yoga? Or praying towards Mecca multiple times a day?? Or praying at Temple???


Or in song. Or dance. For me it was an observation, not a criticism. Psychologically, I'd guess it was very healthy.

Posted on: 2014/6/23 13:34
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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I'm amused that some would try and criticize the 'trance like' feeling you may get while opening your heart and mind in church-do the same people criticize the 'trance like' feeling many get while, say, doing transcendental meditation or yoga? Or praying towards Mecca multiple times a day?? Or praying at Temple???

Posted on: 2014/6/23 13:09
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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I am not even Catholic - nor would I ever consider myself to be a traditionalist (or a Hipster, for that matter), but I do enjoy the latin mass at St. Anthony's. Particularly for the beautiful music. I like to bring my daughter there to listen and appreciate live music that is rare to experience. She is only 2, but she enjoys it as much as I do.

Posted on: 2014/6/22 17:45
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Dear Dtjc:

LOL recognizing the trance like effect of Mass and that it shares some functional similarity to therapy. Sometimes people talk about it as left brain functioning as opposed to right brain functioning (which rushes ahead rationally and spoils the end of the movie). Ritual is pretty universal in human societies and gives meaning to life. Traditional christian liturgy is heavily indebted to the ancient Jewish liturgy- both in the temple of Solomon, the synagog, and the home. Protestant worship is much more linear and non ritualistic and non symbolic. Post Vatican II worship is very Protestant in nature.

I read this book in high school and it still has power:
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Ritual-Chr ... -Alan-Watts/dp/0807013757


I think Watts sort of lives off of greats like these:

The Idea of the Holy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Otto

Sacred and Profane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade

Ciao

Mao

Posted on: 2014/6/22 2:55
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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@Mao - thanks for the clarification. I consider the overall debate between the various factions within the RC church as healthy, though as an outsider some of the secrecy disturbs me.

Interestingly enough I attended an RC wedding and funeral last year. What struck me most was the services seemed to engender a trance-like state designed to shut-down critical thinking and quieten the mind. If the services were in Latin, that effect would likely be doubled - you're not going to be internally digesting whether you actually agree with everything said. But then again, that's probably no worse than a weekly therapy session, or spending a few hours in front of TV. My wife hates me when I guess the ending mid-way through movies - guess I have trouble turning off my critical thinking.

Posted on: 2014/6/21 16:40
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Reason I ask about Opus Dei, is why the secrecy? Perhaps googling "hipster" is more enticing than googling "Opus Dei" or "SSPX". Is the push for "traditonalism" and Latin mass a right-wing RC backlash to the election of the first truly liberal pope in decades and the fear of a Vatican III? If this was Islam, the press might characterize this as a return to intolerant, religious fundamentalism. Hardly "hipster".


Nah, you can point the finger at Dan Brown for the interest in Opus Dei.


I actually think that the rise of Opus Dei is a sign of the fractious and tumultuous times we live in, rather than down to the single author of the Da Vinci code. I've known quite a few members of OD long before that book was published. Over the centuries the RC church has tolerated and sometimes promoted a number of "cults within the cult" (Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits, etc), to allow for some healthy internal debate and avoid deeper schisms. Anyone from the outside that views the RC church as a simple one-minded Borg collective, is missing the huge internal debates that are raging.

I find it fascinating to watch it play out, particularly since the election of Pope Francis. Pass the popcorn please.

Posted on: 2014/6/21 16:10
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Dear Monroe:

Yes, indeed, Dan Brown. He has laughed all the way to the bank for sure.

But for the record, I am not now nor have I ever been a member of Opus Dei. Too bad, too, because it probably would have spared me from some of my misspent youth.

Btw, I am a big proponent of traditional Catholic forms- the parish, sodality, oratory, monastery, and order- as opposed to these new ecclesial movements which too often have cult like qualities. This is much truer of movements like St. Edigo Community, Neo Cats, and Legionnaires of Christ (whose founder, Maciel, was the Devil himself).

Thanks though for the info on the use of Latin by members. Always good to hear. I knew they say "Serviam" upon waking, as in "I will serve [the Lord], from a psalm of David.

Pax by the way, is peace. You know, shalom, salaam, etc. It is most often used in my experience by ex priests and nuns or catholic activists in things like the Catholic Worker or Pax Christi (the pacifist no nukes movement no capital punishment). I think of it as a shortened version of Pax et bonum, the hello/good bye phrased used by St. Francis of Assisi (peace and goodness (or salvation).

Anyway, as I said in the original post, I did not really buy in to the thesis of the article. It is correct in that the Latin Mass movement has its biggest supporters from Catholics in their 20s and 30s. The older ones have just adjusted or given up for the most part. Hipsters I think cultivate a certain retro sensibility, though in an ironic fashion. That also might justify the conceit.

But the post was not trying to be secret or esoteric. It was the opposite, you dope! It is to try to get the message out of our little ghetto. And I post all the time here in very clear terms life for tomorrow.:

FEAST OF CORPUS CHRISITI. MASS AND PROCESSION AT 9:00 AM, ST. ANTHONY's CHURCH. HADYN's MISSA BREVIS.

Also, my handle had been "Publius" but somehow, through an ironic adminstrator, I think, it became, Mao, that bloodthirsty commie!

Yes, Pope Francis is a 1970s style Pope. He prefers tango masses to Palestrina. Monty Python can no longer parody the current church because one can't tell the difference. Yes, the Holy Father is right when he decries the materialism of our age but unfortunate that he does not seem to offer an antidote. He is right to give an example of doing with less in his life. Yet our prayers can never be maimed but should be our best offering.

But traditionalism has nothing, nothing to do with a backlash against Francis, who is merely a starker expression of the day in day out papacy since 1970. Our hope is in the Name of the Lord who made heaven and earth. Catholicism by its nature is traditional. Revelation came to end when the last apostle died. The successors of the apostles, the bishops, preserve and articulate this revelation. The liturgy itself is the rule of faith.

So, DTJC, please come to the Feast and drink ye of the cup of immortality (as the Russian Orthodox communion verse goes).

Pax et bonum,

Mao

Posted on: 2014/6/21 16:03
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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dtjcview wrote:
Reason I ask about Opus Dei, is why the secrecy? Perhaps googling "hipster" is more enticing than googling "Opus Dei" or "SSPX". Is the push for "traditonalism" and Latin mass a right-wing RC backlash to the election of the first truly liberal pope in decades and the fear of a Vatican III? If this was Islam, the press might characterize this as a return to intolerant, religious fundamentalism. Hardly "hipster".


Nah, you can point the finger at Dan Brown for the interest in Opus Dei.

Posted on: 2014/6/21 15:13
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Reason I ask about Opus Dei, is why the secrecy? Perhaps googling "hipster" is more enticing than googling "Opus Dei" or "SSPX". Is the push for "traditonalism" and Latin mass a right-wing RC backlash to the election of the first truly liberal pope in decades and the fear of a Vatican III? If this was Islam, the press might characterize this as a return to intolerant, religious fundamentalism. Hardly "hipster".

Posted on: 2014/6/21 14:28
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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In Opus Dei, numeraries don’t speak in tongues, but they do speak in Latin. They attend mass every day in Latin in their centers and all of the responses are recited in Latin. They read along with a missal with the words in Latin. They also greet each other in Latin: one member says “Pax,” (Peace) and the other member says, “In aeternum.” (For all eternity) Many of the spontaneous prayers passed down from the Founder or the Prelate are in Latin, like “Omnia bonum.” (all for the best)


So Mao. Given you have signed some of your posts with "Pax", this part of your Opus Dei agenda?

Posted on: 2014/6/21 2:45
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Dear wishful thinking:

Good points all. Part of the point of ritual after all is that it consists of actions that are sort of second nature and that are meaningful. So you're right to warn of preciousness of it. Related to this, liturgy, according to liturgists and anthropologists, is supposed to have an organic quality. That is the big criticism of the Novus Ordo- that it was a fabrication of the 1970s by an academic committee. Also, one remembers Screwtape in the book by CS Lewis where the little devil is instructed to make his charge into a liturgy critic. I think Robertson Davies book the Cunning Man in its portrayal of a high Anglo Catholic parish is a pretty entertaining treatment of these dangers (in the book the rector is poisoned so that he dies at the high altar- I think by the curate in order to further his cult of personality).

The first time I went to a Latin Mass was sort of by mistake. I was in Paris and wandered in to a Lefebrist church. In those days, I considered them schismatic (I don't now), and really thought it was an impossible idea that they were clinging to forms the rest of the Church had disgarded. But after like my third time, it suddenly felt more organic, more ritualized, more prayerful than the way I had been praying all my life.

Mao

Posted on: 2014/6/20 19:50
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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@mao - Well, it did get me to click on the link... but for the life of me I don't know what to make of this. For the record, I was raised Catholic, post Vatican II (my family's church was in a working class Polish-American neighborhood, so my earliest memories are of mass being said in Polish) and I don't disagree with you about the sublime or profound qualities of the Latin Mass, but could this be yet one more example of people fetishizing gratuitous characteristics of a thing? Like people's kvelling over 'Downton Abbey' or 'Mad Men', which sanitize the social realities of the periods; or hipsters (invariably children of the privledged) wearing Carhart clothing?

Posted on: 2014/6/20 17:39
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Your probably right cbg.

We here on this board are for the most part post modern dabblers. We are spiritualists, or vegans, or tarot practitioners, or yogaists, or nature worshipers, or gender issuers, or Ayahuasca tea drinkers. Not that there is anything wrong with any of this, but it brings to mind, a quote from GK Chesterton.


When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything.

Posted on: 2014/6/19 20:21
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Re: Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

Posted on: 2014/6/19 20:12
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Hipster Mass, 9:00 AM, Every Sunday, St. Anthony at 6th & Brunswich
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http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/ar ... o-church-5785685902491648


Well it got you to click on this anyway did it not? If you didn't click the link, it references the interest among the young in the old, in the hip, in tradition, i.e., Latin, and rubrics, and chant and Palestrina, and fasting, and confessing, etc.

There is some truth to this, though. These congregations tend to be young and the battles of the soixante huitards ('68ers) are about as relevant to them as, I dunno, the dispute between the Guelphs and Ghibellines.

At St. Anthony's the median age of the Latin Mass congregant is probably about 40- with as many under as over. (Though I miss some of the niceties of the distinction between average and mean). Can anyone enlighten. I notice at my mother's run of the mill Catholic parish in a lovely town at the shore that almost everyone has grey hair.

The Economist wrote about this two years ago.

http://www.economist.com/news/interna ... raditionalist-avant-garde

Right now, under Pope Francis the Relevant, any Catholic who supports this is virtually suspect and subjected to ridicule, banishment, and suspension- even if Benedict the XVI, probably the smartest Pope of the last 100 years, whether you like him or not, definitely settled that this form of liturgy is the right of the faithful everywhere and is always sacred.

Posted on: 2014/6/19 19:57
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