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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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A rail tunnel from Bayonne or Jersey City to Brooklyn has been looked at, several times over the past century or so. Some are saying its time to revisit the idea. See:http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article ... ich-never-quite-went-away
I'm for it, as I think it would reduce truck traffic at the Hudson crossings. A giant train ferry has also been studied as an alternative or interim step. Think a ferry that big could spare some space for bikes? Hmmm.The return of the cross-harbor tunnel Freight Ferry Study
Posted on: 2013/8/4 16:14
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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So, basically, you believe that the whole country is supposed to gift you with the tunnel. You live in a very nice place, with great views, restaurants and an access to the Manhattan, but you think that you also deserve to get something more, - and the good people from all the 50 state must build it for you and your only concern is that those people may dare to ask you pay. Quote:
Well, in this case, if you think that the tunnel is more wanted than it is expensive, - create a company, sign up everyone who believes in it, get permits from the Port Authority, - and build it. And then you can charge us tolls, - so that if you are right about it all, you'd get rich as a result. On the other hand, if you do not really believe that this would be profitable idea - please, do not try to force others to invest in it.
Posted on: 2013/8/4 15:50
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I think before increasing bike lanes they need to do some sort of public outreach to cyclists AND motorists about the rules of the road. I both cycle and drive, and honestly both can be horrible. Cyclists blowing red lights, mowing people down on sidewalks. Cars speeding down Grand St. or taking turns without signalling.
I would like to see some sort of poster or billboard campaign highlighting rules of the road (i.e. share the road, both cars and bikes need to behave as vehicles, etc.). And maybe some events where they give out safety gear for cyclists - helmets, reflective gear, etc. I see so many cyclists without helmets and it's hard to understand given how people drive around here.
Posted on: 2013/8/4 15:08
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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Exactly. That's why I'm posting here, before I start sending this around like I thought of all this. I've already been in contact with a friend of mine who is a member of bike JC. He has the latest draft, and I intend to go to their next meeting if I can make it. I had the feeling that there was already some momentum on this kind of thing and it was just a matter of finding it and connecting.
Posted on: 2013/8/4 14:23
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Posted on: 2013/8/4 7:59
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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BP, I know you mean well, but you didn't invent the wheel, nor bike advocacy in JC. Why don't you join bikejc.org and actually find out what the dialog, wins and losses have been over the years between the hardworking longtime bike advocates and the various agencies and elected officials?
Posted on: 2013/8/4 4:28
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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Hello all,
I just joined jclist as I thought I might find some people of a similar mindset, and I see from this thread that my hunch was correct. I'm interested in improving conditions for bicycling in JC, and I recently composed a letter to the new mayor that I'd like to put out for signing when I do a final draft. I'd be interested in your comments and discussion regarding the letter, which you will find below. Dear Mayor Fulop: We, the undersigned, would like to congratulate you on your recent inauguration. It has been reported that your administration will mark an end to decades of ?machine politics? in Jersey City. We hope that this is so, and we would like to suggest some other positive steps you can make for Jersey City and the region at large. We would like to see Jersey City become more bicycle-friendly. We feel that bikes are a viable transportation option and should be given greater consideration in new development and infrastructure projects. As you are most likely aware, New York City has made substantial investments in bicycle infrastructure in recent years with bike lanes, dedicated bike paths, and the popular CitiBike program. We feel that many of the metropolitan area?s transportation problems could be mitigated with improvements that make biking more amenable and safer. Besides allowing their users to save on the expense of automobiles or other transportation options, you have the benefit of reduced emissions in a region that often suffers from poor air quality. Consider also the pounding that streets take from cars and the costs of car-oriented infrastructure to a municipality really start to add up. Bicycle infrastructure can be created for a fraction of the cost of typical automobile infrastructure. Much of Jersey City is of a scale and density that make it ideal for bicycle commuting. It is largely a matter of filling in the missing pieces. More bike lanes and dedicated bike paths are an obvious start. Secure, weather-proof storage near transit stations would go a long way. If you go to train stations in most cities in the Netherlands, a country known for bicycle planning and infrastructure, you will find a staffed bicycle ?valet? system. Many of them are paired with a bicycle repair shop. Bicycles can be left overnight and even weeks on end. At the PATH stations here, there are few locations where you can lock a bicycle. If one were to leave the bike overnight, the bike may be removed and impounded, as signage clearly warns. We think that this is sending the wrong message. The transit stations should be as welcoming as possible to bikes. The simple act of leaving a bicycle at a transit station in order to make a weekend trip should not have to include the risk of impoundment, theft or vandalism. Another idea that has been promoted to the Port Authority is larger elevators in the Port Authority Bus Terminal. A little bit of digging revealed that the reason the Port Authority does not allow bicycles on buses bound for the terminal is that they feel that the elevators are not large enough. They are already at capacity. While this is outside of the city limits, it is an issue that affects commuters from Jersey City as well as quality of life for the region as a whole. We would like to urge you to get behind this proposal. How about a ?CitiBike?-style bike sharing system on this side of the Hudson? Hoboken is researching the idea. Jersey City has the mixed blessing of a lot of old, disused railroad right-of-way. Could some of it be re-purposed for bikes or mixed-use trails? Can developers of apartment buildings be required to plan for convenient bike storage? It is acknowledged that the city already has incentives for green buildings and that LEED rating system points are awarded for bike racks. Business districts should have convenient and safe places to lock bikes while shopping, and the ongoing bike rack design competition is a welcome initiative. The suggestions in this letter could be seen as possible manifestations of Resolution 11-68, regarding sustainable land use practices. All of these strategies contribute to a more livable, ?green? city. Making transportation alternatives throughout the metropolitan area as seamless as possible is a key strategy. Just as the currently-stalled ARC tunnel would have vastly simplified train service to Manhattan, bike routes need to be planned in ways that allow for smooth transitions to other modes. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and again, we wish you well as you begin your first term.
Posted on: 2013/8/4 3:36
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It would interesting to know what the figures are for commuters that ONLY use the Path from NJ to WTC Station - I would bet there is many that do and I suggest we target that group for an alternative route across the Hudson to help reduce the numbers in the train for those that continue past wtc station.
I'd target the white collar sect of lower manhattan to make the move to reside in JC - especially in those empty highrise apartments. I'd then target the artie sect around geenwich village to reside in our downtown precinct. I still believe we need a bike / pedestrian tunnel for both groups - the envornmental and budget conscious professional. In turn I'd like Fulop to make JC the most sustainable city in the US - This will get many migrating from the tri-state area ...... I hope!
Posted on: 2013/8/3 2:24
Edited by fat-ass-bike on 2013/8/3 2:39:37
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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Ferry might not be as fuel efficient/passenger-mile as the bus, but it can take a much more direct route to its destination than a bus... distance travelled will be quite a bit less.
If the cost weren't as high, I'd do bike/ferry every day (instead of bike > JSQ PATH > NYC subway or walk or Citibike to work). Much more pleasant way to go about it.
Posted on: 2013/8/3 1:58
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Seems to conflict somewhat with what I found, not shocking. I also found a link to a paywalled paper, "Design, Economics and Politics: The Viability of Urban Ferry Systems". Funny thing is it's publisher is the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers, 601 Pavonia Avenue, Jersey City, NJ!
Posted on: 2013/8/2 20:12
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I found this:
While the literature on highway fuel consumption is abundant, studies on ferry boat fuel use are scarce. Bradley and Assoc. [1] calculated an average ferry boat diesel fuel consumption of 12.6 passenger-miles per gallon (passenger-MPG), based on data from the National Transit Database (which is discussed further below). This compared to national averages of 27.7 passenger-MPG for a single-occupant vehicle, 32.5 passenger-MPG for a city transit bus, and 55.4 passenger-MPG for a two-person carpool in 2007. Automobile fuel consumption rates were based on a U.S. fleet economy average of 22.7 MPG. Link to full PDF I only quick scanned the article. I will read it in length later (if I have time).
Posted on: 2013/8/2 18:07
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I think the ferry is probably the go-to option, though I believe there is an environmental concern, regarding erosion near the terminals that has been cited before and that would need to be addressed first.
Not really sure where the current thinking on that is.
Posted on: 2013/8/2 17:42
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Interesting points. I'd love to see some serious research, like a Masters Thesis, on the economics of ferries. How much fuel per passenger do they really consume per trip compared to a jitney to 42nd St? Google, here I come! Many great cities of the world, and even the US, have ferries and they're not marginal failures as ours are. EDIT: Lord I love living in the internet age! Here's the energy data from http://www.well.com/user/pk/waterfront/Ferry/Ferry-05.pdf. It seems a modern well designed ferry can be as efficient as a bus but nowhere near rail. BTU/passenger-mile: Notes on the relative energy efficiency of ferries, cars, busses and trains There are several ways to calculate the fuel efficiency of a transit vehicle. Power can be measured at the engine flywheel, at the propeller or at the wheels, or as the chemical energy of the fuel consumed. Passenger-miles can be determined using any one of several assumptions about load level or the overhead of deadheading. For this analysis, BTU/passenger mile is based on the chemical energy of the fuel, approximated as 17,500 BTU/lb or 140,000 BTU/gallon for all liquid fuels. For diesel engines, a fuel rate of 0.35 lb/hp-hr is assumed. Passenger loading for a commuter ferry, bus or train is assumed to be 50%, allowing for less then full passenger loads in the commute direction and very low passenger loads in the "reverse commute" direction. Home porting strategies can reduce the number of reverse commute runs, but this is offset by light passenger loading during mid-day service. Single-occupancy car: 7,000 BTU/pax-mile (assuming 20 MPG and 140,000 BTU/gal) AC Transit Bus: 660 BTU/pax-mile one-way with 56 passengers 1,320 BTU/pax-mile at average 50% load. (from http://www.watertransit.org/pubs/eir/Section3.13_Energy.pdf) Light Rail 91 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 182 BTU/pax-mile, 50% load. (from http://www.watertransit.org/pubs/eir/Section3.13_Energy.pdf) BART 68 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 136 BTU/pax-mile, 50% load (from http://www.watertransit.org/pubs/eir/Section3.13_Energy.pdf) Ferries currently in service between the East Bay and San Francisco "Peralta" - 3200 HP, 26 knots, 331 passengers 2,280 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 4,560 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load "Encinal" - 3600 HP, 24 knots, 388 passengers 2,370 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 4,740 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load "Bay Breeze" - 1285 HP, 26 knots, 250 passengers 1,210 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 2,420 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load "Express II" - 850 HP, 28 knots, 149 passengers 1,250 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 2,500 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load Historical: Ferry "Berkeley" (1889) - 1250 HP, 12 knots, 1700 passengers 536 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 1,072 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load (assuming fuel rate of 0.5 lb/hp-hr) Proposed: New design based on "Express II" with maximum speed 20 knots: 640 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 1,280 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load (Reducing fuel consumption/mile by square of speed ratio.) New design based on "Express II" with maximum speed 18 knots: 515 BTU/pax-mile, full passenger load 1030 BTU/pax-mile, 50% passenger load (Reducing fuel consumption/mile by square of speed ratio.)
Posted on: 2013/8/2 17:39
Edited by brewster on 2013/8/2 18:08:49
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I don't believe that is the full story. I think that NY Waterway has adopted the losing strategy of raising prices to make up for decreased ridership. On the face of decreased sales, some companies opt to lower prices (or, some other form of increasing competitiveness) and how to make up the lower margin gains on volume, while others do the exact opposite: raise prices (until, invariably, they price themselves out of existence.)
Quite honestly, the ferry IS nice. And, definitely nicer than the PATH commute, but unless you work close to a ferry terminal in Manhattan, it is way too expensive (even if you can afford it) when compared to other forms of transportation/commuting. The cheapest daily commute by ferry is $14. That's 3 days of commuting by PATH, at the full price. And the PATH gets you to various points in midtown quickly. The ferry lets you out at the terminals, and you walk, cab or subway to your final destination. And, please, don't mention the free shuttle. Being stuck on a shuttle in morning traffic is vexing. Plus, the ferry charges an extra dollar (each way) to bring along your bicycle.
Posted on: 2013/8/2 17:11
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What drives up the cost of the ferries is the price of fuel. They are diesel fuel pigs. Not sure how a small ferry company would solve that problem. Bring back coal fired steam boiler power?
Delta airlines found a way to better keep its fuel costs in check.. they bought a refinery. The Hess refinery in NJ is up for sale I think (its not operating right now).
Posted on: 2013/8/2 16:12
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Just posted on my blog:
Chilltown 2.0: Is Jersey City Ready for the World Stage?
For one thing, with immigrants from the Caribbean, Latin America, the Middle East, Asia, and the Pacific, Jersey City is already ON the world stage. But is it ready to PLAY on the world stage, that?s the question?
The most obvious response is that the question is pointless. Jersey City is a mid-size city on the west bank of the Hudson River in the shadow of New York City. New York City, of course, is a major player on the world stage. But why should Jersey City aspire to be anything more than an appendage to New York City? And even if it aspires to be more, how could it do that?
Good questions, questions I?ll be thinking about in the coming days, weeks, and months. You should do so as well.
My basic conviction?and I?m just going to state it, not argue it?is that Jersey City?s long-term survival depends on it?s ability to actively take a role on the world stage. ...
Posted on: 2013/8/2 15:37
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To shift gears here slightly, i think an easier push for mass transit should be a new light rail line within JC along the west side of the city, possibly along JFK which could integrate with traffic or have its own separate right of way. Dealing with another city is always a tricky venture but asking NJT to extend the light rail within the city could be a relatively cost effective and much needed boost to the rest of the city. Nothing above and below JSQ will improve dramatically unless mass transit to the PATH improves dramatically encouraging more people to move in so they can get to work in the morning. The busses just arent cutting it.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 12:51
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I hear you brewster, we live in a capitalist society based on profit and loss with the government encouraging private enterprize in all facets of social behavior or commuter needs, however those infrustructure projects mentioned did have government backing and financial input.
Why then don't we sell off the PATH, Lightrail, NJ Transit and Subways to the private sector as it never makes a profit for which our taxes are spent towards it? We should also rid ourselves of all government run non profit institutions and be a totally user pays society. I just hope we don't end up on the ugly side of capitalism if we aren't there already.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:52
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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Dubai is an oil fueled vanity project, it cannot be compared to a real city. Real cities must pay for what they build and justify the expense. The PATH and Holland were both built by speculators figuring there was a paying market for their product. Do the numbers and figure out what your baby would cost as a toll road. And BTW, the cast iron PATH tubes are laid on the river bottom. It's not a new idea.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:27
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Tunnels can also be built on the surface of a river bed or even suspended under water - technology and construction methods have come along way.
100 years ago it was unheard of buildings being over 5 storeys high and space travel was a kids fantasy! Think positive, think possibilities - our forefathers did it, so can we! I spent time in Dubai on my last holiday and we can build and do almost anything in the construction world.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:14
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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The Holland tunnel from mouth to mouth is ~2575m, and I'll bet anything it's far deeper than the tunnels you cite. The tunnel you link to only cost $3.7 million because it was only reusing a rail tunnel, not digging a new one.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:07
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The Brooklyn Bridge nearly bankrupt the city but it was built in a time of poverty and high unemployment .... so was the Hoover Dam and many other high cost outlay capital works programs.
Remeber this is just a thought to help solve the commuter issues of the PATH, Holland Tunnel and Ferry Service and I don't have my hands in the city purse , however there would have many other benefits for the city with the idea! This would also increase the gentification of JC (for which I don't particularly like) with white collar Manahattan professionals exploring our neck of the woods for accomodation and homes!
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:06
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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due to our current debt situation, no we cannot. income isn't the only thing that matters, debt does too. if debt >>> income, you're still poor.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 3:01
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http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/ ... bicycle-tunnel-opens.html
We are in the tri-state of one of the biggest cities in the world and we can't afford it? I think not, when you look at the combined population. We live in an area of once the biggest buildings in the world, the biggest and longest bridges in the world because we have heaps of people and the need to commute around the tri-state area - The longest bicycle tunnel is about 850m and the Hudson is about 1200m. Bath, UK are looking to build a 1700m tunnel for cyclists and pedestrians - So it can be achieved If the Holland Tunnel could be retro-fitted to accommodate bicycles and pedestrians, I would bet all my assets that it would be patronized by more of them then motorists.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 2:50
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and who's going to pay for it? the city and state are already broke.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 2:45
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Sure, under a Dutch canal, but I guarantee they're not under a river the size of the Hudson! That's at least $4 billion dollars for some JC residents to be able to walk rather than take a train? Like I said, cheaper to helicopter them. You want to power your own way across the Hudson, get a kayak. If we want to demand transport services, we'd be much more realistic to request the PA subsidize the ferries, and while we're at it, to transfer the PATH to MTA control and make it a free transfer to the subway. The PA never wanted the PATH to begin with.
Posted on: 2013/8/1 2:26
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 Under river bicycle tunnels already exist in smaller cities then JC and NY. They are in Europe, are cost effective and extremely popular as they are free - They also free up public transport of congestion and peak car periods. LA is looking into them and are budgetting for their own tunnel. My only concern is that governemnts invovled with the construction, will attempt to toll the crossing.  If we all recall in history, the Brooklyn Bridge was deemed too expensive, unwanted and the ferries were the answer - Amazing how people can be so wrong and even more bridges were built to accommodate population growth and demand! This will also help with JC sustainability obligations and our carbon footprint reduction - A win for the government, environment and commuter. It will also be a boost for property prices and attract more people over to reside in JC
Posted on: 2013/8/1 1:25
Edited by fat-ass-bike on 2013/8/1 1:54:33
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Re: Down to the River: Newly Minted Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop Plans Big
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Yes. Which is why I said it needs to be competitively priced. Boston's Inner Harbor ferries are $3, that would do it. I really wonder at the economics of operating a ferry. It's equipment can't be more expensive than a rail line: boat vs train car, they both have stations, but a ferry has no rails and switching system to maintain. If it was as subsidized as the MTA or PATH, what would the price be?
Posted on: 2013/7/31 21:51
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Yes, but at 7 dollars a ride the ferry is not a cost effective measure.
Posted on: 2013/7/31 21:16
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Seems like more ferry options is the answer.
Posted on: 2013/7/31 19:55
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