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Re: The futility of gun control
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This is what I said, and it was not my idea - don't attribute the suggestion to me, it's totally ridiculous:
AlexC wrote: So the insurance solution will work like this: We would require gun buyers to purchase insurance for owning a gun. If a gun was used in a crime and killed someone, even if the firearm was stolen, the insurance companies provide compensation to the victims. What this suggests is that the vast majority, like what 99.99% of gun owners would be taxed to pay for the criminal or negligent use of a firearm? Insurance companies, assuming they will underwrite this - the actuarial tables would not work. I don't think it would be possible.
Posted on: 2013/7/9 1:36
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fat-ass-bike write: Yeah, it is a good question, - if I seek protection from tyrannical government in my right to bear arms, why would I want to live in the only country where this right is protected by the Constitution? Yeah, I mean if only we could master the deeps of knowledge and reasoning that would allow us to solve this mistery wrapped in enigma! Quote: Frank_M wrote: So? Condoms can be said to facilitate rape. Of course, a rape is possible without a condom just like murder is possible without a gun. So what? In your logic this means nothing. And of course, baseball bats, kitchen knives also facilitate murder. Gasoline facilitates arson. Right? Is it not how your logic works? Or is it a special logic that is only applicable in some cases where you want it to work and is inapplicable in the others? Quote: Frank_M wrote: Is it? If that "common sense" matched reality, Vermont would have been the most criminal state of them all and Chicago and DC would have been relatively well off. Or, for that matter, Switzerland where everyone serves in the army and then take is assaulted weapon home with him after the end of the service, - if your "common sense" were reality based, that would have been the slaughterhouse. Anyways, a "common sense" must be based on some data, or at least, reasoning. Otherwise, it is not a "common sense", but a so called "prejudice". Do you have any data that would show that a level of violence is inversely corellated with how armed the society is? Of course, you would know to use only the data where an adjustment was made for other factors, right? And, of course, when you will be calculating the number of people being murdered in a disarmed society, you are not going to forget to add everyone who was murdered by their governments, right? Quote: AlexC wrote: Only gun owners? No knife owners? How about people endowed with an equipment that can be used for rape? Should they buy insurance too? What other rights do you plan to limit to only those who can pay the insurance? Oh, and what about the reverse? When a gun is used to stop a violent criminal, - do you plan to pay the owner for all the lives that he may have saved now and in the future?
Posted on: 2013/7/9 1:22
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Honestly, no. They are the 500 lb gorilla. The only organization that can actually mount enough resistance to all of the totally ridiculous laws (such as the one passed in CT) with money and political clout to put fear into and oust lawmakers.
I know we live in NJ and already have some of the toughest, and actually sensible laws, which works for me, but the line has to be drawn. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/7/8 17:57
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Posted on: 2013/7/8 17:16
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It works for cars especially if a school bus or an ice cream is involved. The car owner takes the hit.
Posted on: 2013/7/8 17:01
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Get on your bikes and ride !
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You can't give them guns, that's how they steal all our jobs! Guns are for Americans only... but not the native kind. /s
Posted on: 2013/7/8 16:51
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So much for the, "very low number and excellent result." Just wanted to notify you, if you haven't already seen the morning news.....the military coup continues to build up the body count in Cairo with 42 protestors shot to death and more than 300 injured. So when you say the Egyptians can teach a thing or two about democracy, are you suggesting we have an armed revolution too?
Posted on: 2013/7/8 14:32
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I neither claimed nor implied that the existence of guns provokes violence. However, these weapons do indeed serve the purpose of facilitating violence and threats of violence, just as spoons facilitate the consumption of soup. Guns are also a potent, relevant variable in the subject of gun violence, while spoons are hardly a significant variable in our nation?s obesity epidemic. Same thing with your weird condom/rape connection. There are many other factors involved, but the large scale manufacture, distribution, and marketing of powerful weapons to civilians in the United States is a vital component of an equation that includes an unacceptably high number of wrongful injuries and deaths. This isn?t something I ?concocted,? it?s common sense. Quote:
I didn?t say that either, not even close. I?m simply identifying a conspicuous lack of perception and objectivity.
Posted on: 2013/7/8 13:43
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So you fear government to justify the right to bear arms ! Why did you then come to the US if you fear our government - wouldn't you have been better off migrating to a pacific island or an Asian nation like Japan? Why go through all the stress of living in fear and arming yourself? You must be living in fear everytime you see a police vehicle or person in military attire!
Posted on: 2013/7/8 7:03
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Show me yours and I show you mine. Your "connections" are no facts. It is just what you want to believe in. It is just something that you concocted in your head, - "an existence of guns must provoke violence". Well, by the same logic the mere existence of the tool that simplifies sex, - must promote sex crimes. Or, if you want to , - just as an existence of spoons must provoke obesity. Same logic. Quote:
Now, that is simply not a truthful statement. I enumerated some violations by the federal government not few comments ago. Quote: Additionally, what do you think could be accomplished more effectively by our federal government through the use of force? Everything that a government, any government does, - is through the use of force, or through the threat. Otherwise, I'd seize paying taxes for anything beyond the Section 8 of the Constitution long time ago. Quote: Those who routinely trumpet the value of the Second Amendment as it was written, rarely compare the alleged threat of brutal oppression to the slew of powerful societal control mechanisms in place that already influence Americans to concoct and support questionable policies, agendas, and trends. These control factors include both deliberate and incidental agents such as: advertising, marketing, consumerism, ... Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is, - "What's wrong with little tyranny? It would aggrieve me less than watching other people freely behaving in the ways that I do not approve!"
Posted on: 2013/7/8 2:53
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While there are direct connections between the widespread manufacture, distribution, and marketing of addictive, intoxicating drugs and drug abuse, as there are the widespread manufacture, distribution, and marketing of powerful weapons and their deployment as tools of aggression and harm, can you help me understand your condom/rape connection? To what extent do you believe condoms facilitate or enable this particular act of violence, and for bonus points, how does that compare to the use of, oh, firearms in cases of rape? Quote: Quote: In that case, what are your specific fears? I'm curious because, despite the common allusion to our federal government as a potentially violent or oppressive threat, few seem willing to deliberately spell out their concerns. Additionally, what do you think could be accomplished more effectively by our federal government through the use of force? Those who routinely trumpet the value of the Second Amendment as it was written, rarely compare the alleged threat of brutal oppression to the slew of powerful societal control mechanisms in place that already influence Americans to concoct and support questionable policies, agendas, and trends. These control factors include both deliberate and incidental agents such as: advertising, marketing, consumerism, the scarcity of genuinely free and objective press, elaborate entertainment spectacle and the cult of celebrity, hero worship, pride, selfishness, ignorance, isolation, feelings of inferiority, lust for power, one-upmanship for its own sake, racism, fear of unemployment, fear of illness, fear of terrorism, widespread malnutrition, disproportionately expensive education, daily life made increasingly abstract through technology, the reliance on prescription drugs that act as emotional straight-jackets, and holy crap the list just goes on... Why force us to go along with the ride at gunpoint when we're actively bidding for the opportunity to stand in line for it?
Posted on: 2013/7/7 19:50
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fat-ass-bike wrote: There was a national holiday this past week, - you may remember that you got a day off from work possibly. Would you be interested at all to learn something about the origins of that holiday? Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Well, this here current administration did the following: (a) in violation of the law, supplied arms to the Mexican drug cartels, lied about it to the Congress and planned to use those rifles to blame the populace for the trafficking in order to institute further gun controls, (b) used the power of the IRS to harass and investigate the political opponents (that on top of the IRS collecting all financial data on all citizens without any warrant, and it being empowered to arrest my accounts without going to any court, and it being empowered to demand that I proved my innocence if the pick me at random), (c) conducted a war without any act of Congress, (d) conducted mass surveillance of the citizenry, (e) raised taxes and forced the population to buy the services that some of us do not want to purchase, (d) created tons of laws that make almost everything we do a federal crime, and so on and so forth. If any of the Founding Fathers learned about half of what this government is doing, even the most peaceful of them, like Dickinson would have demanded to abolish this Government, not merely to impeach the President. Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Nobody forces you to do that. Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: Actually, the words that you need to use is "civil rights groups". This is what you call an association of citizenry who are concerned about the preservation of one or more of their civil rights. And, if an existence of a a "civil rights group" you see as a problem, - well, then I think you need to do the same thing I did years ago in the USSR, - look around and think "is this the country that meets my political ideas? Do I need to move in with the people who are more in tune with what I believe in?" Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: It is only a "paranoia" if it is not justified. If that were the case you could feel superior and call them paranoid people names. On the other hand, if it IS justified, than you look just... well, let's call it "naive".
Posted on: 2013/7/7 14:36
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You should be paranoid (although if you don't want to own a gun, it's still a free country) - US government spying on it's own citizens is at unprecedented levels.
Posted on: 2013/7/7 14:01
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Governement change without a US style 2nd amendment to bear arms - The point which was missed, is that an individual to bear arms to protect themselves againt a 'bad' government is crap - We can impeach and dump our president if they commit a wrong.
We have enough checks and balances to dump a corrupt administration - Nixon was a classic. So the arguement to bear arms to protect oneself from government is flawed / poppycock. The real problem with the gun culture is we have too many lobby groups and fear advocates to promote gun ownership. We have too many new citizens that have immigrated their paranoia and fear of governments and authority with them.
Posted on: 2013/7/7 2:30
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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fat-ass-bike wrote: That was a military coup, oh The Most Informed One. Quote: fat-ass-bike wrote: What part of that military coup against an elected government do you consider the most teaching moment? I mean, beside the fact that we learned that "Democracy" is not a synonym of "freedom" and a democratically elected government can be pretty much fascist, if it is not bound by the obligation to observe the rights of the political minorities. Quote: JPhurst wrote: Hey, we can do even better. Let's open a police investigation! Screw the presumption of innocence! Let's immediately issue a search warrant for all the possessions and go through them! And, why stop there? The government of the country where I grew up was sending everyone who disagreed with their doctrine to a psychiatrist. We can too! Quote: JPhurst wrote: Again, why stop there? If you believe it is permissible to force-feed people propaganda just because they want to exercise their rights, - let's just create reeducation camps for everyone. Quote: AlexC wrote: Why use a euphemism? "Neocons", - forsooth! You should be brave enough to call us by our proper name, - uppity Jews who presume to have an opinion in this WASPy nation. And it is just funny how disparaging your mention of the Tea Party sounds around the 4th of July. Second, your mention of your liberalism is entirely unnecessary in this dialogue. It proves nothing and it can't be used to support any argument of yours. The only reason you mentioned it, - you figured that without this oath of allegiance to the Party, Frank is not going to consider your arguments on merit. You believe that your fellow liberal is not able to derive their opinion from facts and reason, divorced from their politics. For shame.
Posted on: 2013/7/7 1:10
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What you do not obviously know is what caused the Morsi Government to be abolished by EGIPTIAN MILITARY (armed man). Muslim Brotherhood is a group supported by POTUS. They are responsible for sensless killings, prosecution and torture of unarmed civilians mostly based on their religious beliefs. My point is that unarmed population is a population of victims. And I respect your opinion that goverment is your best friend. I guess politicians never lied to you?
Posted on: 2013/7/6 15:06
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Boris - this wasn't an argument but a statement. I am differentiating myself against a lot of others who defend the 2nd Amendment. There are a lot of us that are neither right wing Tea Party nor NeoCons. But we will fight for our rights.
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Posted on: 2013/7/6 14:06
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5. Have a prospective gun owner take this exam. 100% correct needed to get a permit.
http://www.crmvet.org/info/la-littest.pdf
Posted on: 2013/7/6 13:50
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4. Gun shops must provide advice on other methods of self defense, including martial arts training. Gun shops must also offer lessons in the virtues of pacifism. Or at least not appointing yourself neighborhood watchman and disregarding a police officer's instruction NOT to follow the person that you think "looks suspicious."
Posted on: 2013/7/6 13:43
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Seeing what's going on in Texas, I propose the following.
1. Every gun shop must be required to have a licensed psychiatrist on site, and that psychiatrist must have admitting privileges to a licensed psychiatric facility within 30 miles of the shop. 2. Prior to selling a gun, a dealer must show a prospective client a film demonstrating the dangers of gun violence. The dealer must then allow a 1 week cooling off period to allow the customer to consider whether they still want to purchase a gun. 3. A purchaser must demonstrate, if they are married, that they have their spouse's consent to own a gun.
Posted on: 2013/7/6 13:39
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We are talking of a complete change of government and president - 30 dead is very very low and an excellent result for democracy in a so called unconstitutional middle east country. No need to bear arms, no need to have assualt weapons with no need to instill fear of government. Egyptians could teach many Americans about democracy, the power of the people and those fear mongering advocates that promote the need to arm against government. If you had armed civilians with a similar amendment right to ours, it would have escalated will nutters shooting any and all government officials and representatives
Posted on: 2013/7/6 6:38
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: The futility of gun control
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Egypt? 30 dead and counting.
Posted on: 2013/7/6 5:49
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The citizens of Egypt through out the government without the need for individuals to bear arms - Interesting !
Posted on: 2013/7/6 3:54
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Frank_M wrote: I presume you also purchase condoms. Do you want to claim your share of guilt for the rapes? Ever played an occasional inning of baseball? Well, that means you are responsible for some heads that were smashed in by the bats. Took a swim in a pool? Now, look at all the innocent kids that die from drowining. Their blood is on you. And that one, - counts for a whole lot of blood. Do I need to continue? Do I need to mention kitchen knives? Matches? Electricity? Are we ready to put this most pitiful argument to rest? Quote: AlexC wrote: Ah, sorry. Hey, Frank, did I just call you argument pitiful? I take it back. This is so much worse. Seems like you guys have lost all ability to argue on merit. Alex feel compelled to proclaim his allegiance to the cause in order to make you honestly consider his arguments. Quote: AlexC wrote: You'd be interested to learn any capable metal worker can make a gun. This is not rocket science. This is a technology from XIX century, for crying out loud!
Posted on: 2013/7/6 3:48
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I think every person should carry a shovel so they can dig a hole, stick their head in it and wait for police every time crime occurs. PEOPLE! Open your eyes! Media promotes violence, especially towards our youth. Prisons are being privatized. On the other hand law abiding class is supposed to give up their rights to defend their family. BTW...more legal guns means less crime. Look up study conducted by CDC which was ordered by King Obamma.
Posted on: 2013/7/5 19:03
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The founding fathers never heard of the Telephone, Radio, Movies, Television and Internet Blogs. Are they covered under the 1st Amendment??? Your logic is faulty. I hope we can maintain this discourse without personal attacks
Posted on: 2013/7/4 17:19
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Posted on: 2013/7/4 17:13
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with firearms, for better or worse, technology has overtaken laws and ethics with 3-d printable guns (Wiki Weapons). As with everything, it's the intent that matters, not the object itself.
http://www.guns.com/2013/07/01/3d-pri ... nd-glock-powered-shuty-9/
Posted on: 2013/7/4 0:46
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When we choose to support industries that manufacture drugs or firearms, we are helping to pay for the further manufacture and distribution of potentially dangerous products that are used inappropriately or maliciously at an alarming rate. We?re definitely part of the equation.
Posted on: 2013/7/3 13:25
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In other news...
Illinois is now a shall issue State (IL had a complete ban on concealed carrying of weapons). There are now only 7 states that do not allow the general public to carry weapons, which NJ is one of them. The IL CCW law was actually ordered the 7th Circuit Court Of Appeals that ruled that IL's lack of a CCW law violated the 2nd Amendment. NJ basically bans concealed carry in practice (NJ is a 'May Issue' state, but in practice doesn't issue permits). Curious if a 7th Circuit Ruling could finally force NJ to become a 'Shall Issue' state.
Posted on: 2013/7/3 12:16
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