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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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The fact that the Mayor does not have the legal authority to fire Vega is a sidebar. He can call for him to resign. So can the other members of the Council. Without their support he is toast.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:35
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Nope. No smoke. Not even a mirror. I'm not the only one who has explained how this works, and if you want to keep talking around it, knock yourself out. We agree that Vega should resign. You think his not resigning is somehow the Council's fault or Healy's fault. I think his not resigning is squarely and entirely his fault, and the more others are blamed for Vega's choice in this matter, the less accountable he is for his actions. I, too, would like to have seen the Council have voted for Fulop's gesture calling on him to resign (and think Viola might have if she were present), but I did not expect it to happen. Nor did I expect Healy to call for his resignation. But I don't consider it hypocrisy on anyone's part other than Vega's, that Vega hasn't resigned. Others in this thread have stated better than I could, DanL notably, and the JCIndependent's editorial did a good job, too, that Vega's position as an elected official is based on the public trust. That trust is shattered. Btw, I honestly have no idea where you got the second paragraph of your last post. That isn't at all what I was saying. I was trying to illustrate why it's a good, but not always convenient, thing that the Mayor and other council members can't simply force another elected official out of office, using Fulop as an example in a hypothetical situation. Give it another read. Let's hope the "teachable moment" going on at the White House today is more fruitful than this one, because I really don't think you have understood a word I've written, whether deliberately or unintentionally. 
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:34
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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As someone pointed out previously, innocent until proven guilty is not a standard that applies to public opinion, public credibility, ethics, etc. Most of these have to do with the appearance of propriety, fairness, etc. It's a lot looser standard. And that's the issue that's being debated here. We're not in courtroom and we're not a jury. It's just about opinions.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:29
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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I will try and explain why the Mayor has no power over the Councilman. I hope I can explain it in a clearly. Under the States Constituation there are three forms of government. the Executive Branch; the Legislative branch (the Council); and the Judicial branch. The Executive branch (the Mayor) can not dictate to the Legislative Branch. The Executive branch can only do what is in it's power set forth by the Civil Service Commission. The other six people held employment within the side of government that is controlled by the powers of the Executive Branch.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:28
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Sorry, but you're harping on minor procedural issues, claiming they are the heart of the matter, and never addressing my point: Why are the city employees being suspended without pay while Vega stays in office on the grounds that he's innocent until proven guilty? It is nothing but hypocrisy. I'm confident it will soon be resolved in the only way that makes sense: Vega will resign.
The "machine" didn't indict Vega, federal prosecutors did. His ultimate resignation will not threaten the independence of other Council members like Fulop unless you are suggesting that federal prosecutors are controlled by the machine which is absurd under the circumstances. Your latest attempt to characterize my comments are no more accurate than the first few: I am not "throwing around outrage" any more than I'm writing "vitriol" or pursuing an "agenda." I am asking a pretty simple question and you're throwing up a lot of smoke to obscure it. Why?
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:21
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Home away from home
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Holding your hand through this conversation is growing tedious, but I'll bite:
1.) The critical inaccuracy I referenced was your statement in post #578, and again restated in your previous post, that the Council suspended the city workers yet did not suspend Vega, and are therefore hypocrites. When corrected on that fallacy, you shrugged it off as "what's the difference?" And again, in your prior post, you talk about Healy "voting not to ask Vega to resign" and assert that the Council suspended the city employees. Healy doesn't "vote" with the council, he's the Mayor. Structure of government doesn't seem to be important to you, and I don't think a back-and-forth on JCList is going to impress upon you the various nuances involved in separation of powers and elected office. That you can't be bothered to figure it out doesn't make it unimportant or mere semantics. 2) There is zero difference in the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" - it is a right guaranteed by our Federal and State Constitutions. The difference in at will and appointed city employees being fired or suspended has everything to do with their not being elected/hired directly by the people. Their boss has the discretion to suspend them, as they are not directly accountable to the people, but to him. The same is not true for elected officials, and for good reason. If elected officials were subject to suspension or termination the same way city employees are, the machine would have found a (bogus) reason to bounce Fulop long ago. The same doctrine that keeps Fulop's position on the Council secure is the same one protecting Vega. Whether you like it or not. I appreciated Fulop's resolution calling for Vega to resign, but as stated before, it was a non-binding resolution. Of course we knew the way the vote would go. They could have all voted with Fulop and Vega would still get to choose whether or not to step down. 3) Since you're so fond of giving advice, here's some for you: learn to appreciate the way government works a little better before you start throwing around your outrage, or at least have a little more humility when people point out when you get your information wrong. Oh, and when cherry-picking quotes from me, try to get it right. Because what you're claiming I said adds up to vitriol isn't actually what I said. R.I.F. Quote:
Posted on: 2009/7/30 21:08
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 20:50
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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There is no "critical innacuracy." I am questioning the Council's hypocrisy. It is the same people who decided to suspend the city employees and voted not to ask Vega to resign. Even if the decisions about the city employees were made exclusively by Healy, he voted against asking Vega to resign. The fact that Vega is an elected official means they can't suspend him, but it does not they can't vote to encourage him to resign. They had that option any only Fulop voted for it. I am curious to hear the basis for the different standards of presumed innocence for elected and appointed officials. You say it a "critical" difference so "well-settled" that my failure to appreciate it amounts to "vitriol disguised as analysis." Yet several elected officials indicted along with Vega have now resigned including the Mayors of Secaucus and Hoboken. Oh--and what exactly is my "agenda?"
Posted on: 2009/7/30 20:26
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Not only that, but when you actually cast a vote about yourself. Unbelievable.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 17:18
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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No - you aren't wrong. That non-binding vote is the closest thing to a "mechanism" the council has. That's why I mentioned it. Mr. Vega had even graciously said he would "accept the decision of the council." Not much risk there when you know the answer going in. Recall is the only currently existing method to remove an elected official in NJ.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 17:17
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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I thought Fulop's ordinance was a non-binding "no confidence" vote. Which, even had it passed, could have gone entirely unheeded by Vega. I could be wrong though. (There's a sentence you don't hear much 'round here.)
Posted on: 2009/7/30 17:10
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The council, or more accurately Fulop, tried the one avenue to remove Vega that it has available to it yesterday. By a vote of 7-1, "Team Healy minus one" found there is nothing wrong with Vega and that his ability to perform as council president hasn't been compromised in the least.
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 17:06
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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So you don't think there should be a different standard for how to remove those elected by the people to serve a specific term and those hired at will or appointed? We'll agree to disagree on that one, but it's pretty well-settled in representative democracies with separate branches of government. Quote:
I'll get on that, right after you get out of the habit of shrugging off critical inaccuracies as "what's the diff?". Along with that tendency to feign objectivity when you're just as agenda-driven as the rest of JCList.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:41
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How is saying there is a double standard between the way the appointed officials are removed from office upon indictment while Vega is allowed to continue in office because he's innocent until proven guilty "vitriol" and not "analysis?"
You have got to get out of the habit of attacking the character and morality of people who disagree with you.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:28
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Um, yeah, there's really a difference. Silly facts, always getting in the way of vitriol-disguised-as-analysis.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:20
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Is there really a difference? Did the Mayor ask Vega to resign?
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:17
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Home away from home
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Did the Council suspend the other city employees, or did the mayor?
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:16
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Exactly. The mayor doesn't have the authority to suspend Vega, even if he were inclined to (which he clearly isn't). Different standards should apply to those elected by the people and those hired at will or appointed by the mayor and under his supervision. Regardless of whether it leads to the desirable outcome in every instance, that's how representative government works. Not sure if there's a mechanism in place for the Council to remove one of its own (not that they would in this case).
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:14
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Obviously, But the Council voted not to ask for his resignation on the grounds that he is innocent until proved guilty while suspending his co-defendants. Hypocrisy.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:11
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Home away from home
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The headline reads:
Vega is elected official, so his checks continue...
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:04
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Why is Vega "innocent until proven guilty" while the others are suspended without pay? One standard please.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 16:01
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I live by the river.
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Home away from home
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If it's a record tied to any of 11 officials, feds want it
Thursday, July 30, 2009 Journal staff writer Federal investigators have served subpoenas on government offices in three Hudson County municipalities where elected officials were swept up last week in a sprawling FBI corruption probe. Officials in Hoboken and Jersey City confirmed yesterday they have received criminal subpoenas from the U.S. Attorney's Office. A law enforcement official with knowledge of the probe said Secaucus Town Hall also has been subpoenaed. Officials there did not return calls for comment. The subpoenas began arriving late last week shortly after Hoboken Mayor Peter Cammarano III, Secaucus Mayor Dennis Elwell, and nine Jersey City employees and officials, including City Council President Mariano Vega Jr. and Deputy Mayor Leona Beldini, were arrested on charges of taking bribes from an FBI informant. Elwell announced his resignation from office Tuesday. "We are busy at work responding to the government subpoenas concerning the employees and officials who were arrested," said City Clerk Robert Byrne. According to two officials familiar with the subpoenas, investigators are seeking e-mails, letters and records connected to the officials arrested and to the projects allegedly discussed with the informant. THE STAR LEDGER Ken Thorbourne contributed to this story. ================================= 6 city employees in sweep are off municipal payroll Vega is elected official, so his checks continue Wednesday, July 29, 2009 By KEN THORBOURNE JOURNAL STAFF WRITER Six Jersey City employees arrested in last week's corruption sweep received their last paychecks from the city on Thursday, officials confirmed yesterday. They will continue to receive health benefits paid by the city through August, when they will be given the option to purchase health insurance through COBRA, city officials said. Advertisement These employees can no longer contribute to their pension plans, but the city would have to pay its share of the pension tab if the defendants are vindicated in court, officials said. The affected employees: Deputy Mayor Leona Beldini; John Guarini, a clerk in the Building Department; Maher Malik, deputy director of the city's Department of Health and Human Services; Joseph Castagna, the city's health officer; Guy Catrillo, a former City Council candidate and planning aide; and Michael Manzo, a firefighter. All are charged with accepting money from a government informant posing as a developer seeking favors to fast-track his project. Also charged with accepting bribes last week were Joseph Cardwell, a political operative and commissioner on the Jersey City Municipal Utilities Authority; and Edward Cheatam, a board member of the Jersey City Housing Authority. At the direction of Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy, the Law Department is researching the procedure and grounds on which the mayor and the City Council can remove Cardwell from the MUA board, said city spokeswoman Jennifer Morrill. The post offers no salary, but comes with health benefits. Cheatam agreed to resign from the housing authority board on Saturday, but his letter has not yet arrived, said Raj Mukherji, chairman of the JCHA board. "I requested the resignation," Mukherji said. "We just didn't need a distraction from the good work that we do." Jersey City Council President Mariano Vega Jr. was also arrested on corruption charges, but he couldn't be suspended by Healy since he is an elected official, Morrill said. Vega, charged with accepting $30,000 in bribes, has proclaimed his innocence and is refusing to step down.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 12:02
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Home away from home
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I should have said US Federal Government Level.
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Posted on: 2009/7/30 4:01
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Home away from home
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But then he became one.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 3:55
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Re: Several local politicians arrested on corruption charges
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Just can't stay away
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A people? Aren't all of law enforcement at the "Government Level"?
Posted on: 2009/7/30 3:45
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U.S. Attorney Chris Christie has a 100% conviction rate for corrupt politicians and officials. Perhaps Allenwood Feederal Prison Camp will have to add a New Jersey senatorial section and a Bergen County wing by the time Chris Christie's done. One can hope this trend continues.
I was also talking to a very high ranking people in Law Enforcement. He is at Government Level. When on the subject on what is going on here and if Corzine can come out and want Vega to resign, why not Healy & Team Healy Members, he said that is because they want to be good to Vega, because if they force him out, they all know that Vega knows where the bodies are buried and could turn on them to the FBI, which he will end up doing once the FBI pressures him. Beldini too, they will work to get her to talk. The FBI wants Healy, they just want to connect the dots with the money. Hopefully down the road we can remove the entire Team Healy, if he goes down. They all benefited from those illegal campaign contributions and used that money to get elected.
Posted on: 2009/7/30 3:34
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nixon was a lawyer too. and he was not a crook.
of course, we may want to remember this ...
i love you tube, but
beats everything else....
Posted on: 2009/7/30 2:38
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i could see this.. the guy was a judge after all
Posted on: 2009/7/30 2:23
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Umm, No. The only reason Healy was not in cuffs like the other crooks is cause his underlings are not that bright and allowed him to set things up so that he gets most of the benefit while having very little exposure. Mark my words, Healy is guilty as hell and will go down because he does not have the clout nor money to pay to keep everyone silent. The feds will make offers to get him and someone will talk. Also, all councilmembers, except Fulop: Smug and silent, even as the political world around them crumbles. How far down do bribes trickle?
Posted on: 2009/7/30 1:41
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I think you are absolutely right. Its very possible he skirts by without any dirt. If only this all came out earlier, before the election, the court of public opinion might have offered some justice the legal system couldn't. Of course, the AG's office said there was absolutely no political motivation behind this, so the big take down coming after the municipal election had nothing to do with the fact that we are now about 100 days away from the gubernatorial election.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 20:51
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