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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
 
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2008/10/19 1:18 Last Login : 2020/9/25 20:40 From somewhere else
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Yeah, that's all well and good, but what is really accomplished? Don't you think that if terrorists were lurking among us, looking for any and every opportunity to turn NYC and its environs into Beirut of the '80s something would have happened by now? Of course we need to be vigilant in a common sense sort of way, but trying to prevent recurrance of the last attack is the same failed strategy that has been pursued in the past. For all of the hysteria, there just aren't people turning themselves into human bombs and driving into buildings or blowing up shopping malls - either one of which is imminently doable and completely unstoppable given current security measures.
Atlantic had a great story on how TSA fails to prevent even obvious violations in many circumstances - and that's in a very controlled environment where people pass through metal detectors and scanners single file at the discretion of the TSA. Do you really think the subways, PATH, Penn Station, et al can operate like that? Of course not. Alan raises a good secondary point - the system is only as safe as all of the stations feeding into it as well. I can get on a train in Mountain Station NJ, east of South Orange, where there is no attendant. My two suitcases and I will arrive in Hoboken 30 minutes later in the middle of morning rush hour. Sadly, to me at least, the legacy of the WTC attack won't be that we are safer and have learned some lesson because we can never be "safe." That's just the way life is. No, the real legacy will be that fear is the most effective tool available to people who want to control you to achieve their objectives.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 15:19
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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Yes, let's get back to the civil liberties question: do we have a "civil liberty" which protects us from being millimeter-wave scanned? This effort at the PATH is just a trial, and by allowing passengers to choose other stations, it's not a real security measure. In the 1960s and 1970s there were many hijackings of airlines. The perpetrators used guns, knives, bombs, etc. Thus, we now accept scans as prerequisite for air travel. Here, the scan is more than a metal detector. It will guns, knives, bombs, pacemakers, cell phones, undergarments, nipple rings, etc. Given the architecture of train stations, Amtrak, NJ Transit, and PATH may have to run scans at the building or concourse entrance to be comparable to airports. The 2004 Madrid train bombings told us what we already knew: trains are highly vulnerable to terrorist attacks. New York is the ideal target: there are many trains, tunnels, bridges, entrances, and people. Infrastructure disruptions alone would accomplish a terrorist's task. The practical costs of preventing every attack would be high, and would inevitably fail. For example, at Newark Penn having a scanner at four building entrances rather than at 12 platform entrances is a big difference. The time lost is a real minus for rail passengers, who are already somewhat inconvenienced. Moreover, to protect Newark Penn Station means enforcing security at Trenton, Hamilton, Princeton Junction, Jersey Avenue, New Brunswick... and every other station in theNH Transit system and the Amtrak system, including Philly and Baltimore and Raleigh. For a system with so many gaps, sacrificing freedom is a bad and wasteful precedent. Is ianmac right that it props up the security culture's version of the "military industrial" complex? Very likely, yes, and that will only continue.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 14:45
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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The experts make money from the military industrial complex. Each x-ray screening machine or air puffing machine or metal detector yields thousands of dollars in profit for a private manufacturer; no one turns a profit when the government hires an agent to investigate and arrest potential terrorists before they kill people. Why are Port Authority security experts so concerned about the potential threat to the PATH? Because then they get more money for equipment and personnel; more money means expanding their own little fiefdoms.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 14:37
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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Almost too late.
Listen, I can see both sides of this argument. It's a matter of opinion and personal comfort level. I personally choose to play the game officials set before us because the only other option is to move to an island somewhere with a crate full of rifles and transistor radio and hope for the best. If I have to make sacrifices for general safety, I am ok with that.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 13:14
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
 
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jennymayla wrote:
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It's not too late. The potential damage control, including collateral damage, is substantial. And also? They are the security experts. We are just people with a platform where we like to b*tch about things. Unless you are a senior level security official, in which case I apologize. Fail fail.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 12:23
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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The terrorists are already willing/expecting to die, maybe not quite execution style but I doubt that incident changed their resolve. Unfortunately that police operation was very flawed. But I do wonder when you find something suspicious, what happens next and how long do you really have to do anything about it and make the right call. If you shout a warning and it is not understood or the person decides to run because they are an illegal (as the police claimed) we could see repetitions of what happened in London.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 11:36
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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It's not too late. The potential damage control, including collateral damage, is substantial. And also? They are the security experts. We are just people with a platform where we like to b*tch about things. Unless you are a senior level security official, in which case I apologize. Fail fail.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 11:36
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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We should pay homage to that Brazilian. The incident that killed him will go far in showing the terrorists we mean business.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 11:04
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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That's a good point. Suppose you detect something that looks like a bomb that a middle-eastern looking person has strapped to themselves under their middle-eastern looking clothes. How do you go about apprehending them without them setting it off? You pretty much have to shoot to kill, don't you? Like the London police did to that suspect who turned out to be an innocent Brazilian electrician.
Posted on: 2009/6/11 2:49
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
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Who cares if we are xrayed, I feel much safer and since when dose class have to come into the pix, I have nothing to hide and feel much safer.You would be the first to scream if we were attacked again and we didnt do anything to help prevent it
Posted on: 2009/6/10 23:00
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
Joined:
2006/11/13 18:42 Last Login : 2022/2/28 7:31 From 280 Grove Street
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Have there been any close calls for terrorist attacks by means of a siht load of crap being smuggled into the PATH?
Is the NY subway service doing the same and what about the light-rail. I know if the Holland tunnel gets flooded, it will also flood lower NY, but isn't the subway exist at the WTC higher then the water level of the Hudson ?
Posted on: 2009/6/10 21:08
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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No, what is happening is the further stratification of our society; the wealthy will take the ferry and not be subject to this sort of thing, while the impoverished and working class get the x-ray anal probes.
Posted on: 2009/6/10 19:14
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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The public can measure the success or failure of this new technology when the first images start getting leaked out to the internet for all to see. The temptation is too high for the screeners to share or sell images. It will happen once the machines are handed over to the underpaid and lackadaisical security staff.
Posted on: 2009/6/10 18:23
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Just can't stay away
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What's another way to get to work - the $7 each way ferry? Its absolute BS - if you don't want x-ray waves going through you - you shouldn't have to. And they say its "safe" - just like agent orange, Chernobyl, et al were safe. Its the government's way of making us feel good, when in reality, its a huge waste of money. Off my soap box now...
Posted on: 2009/6/10 17:39
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PATH Commuters To Be Scanned -- Screening for Harmful Materials
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Home away from home
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PATH Commuters To Be Scanned
Screening for Harmful Materials JERSEY CITY, NEW JERSEY - Get ready to be checked from head to toe as you board a PATH train. Commuters who use the transit system that connects New York and New Jersey will be scanned for harmful materials as they pass the turnstile. TSA and PATH officials say the pilot program will be in place for one month. All passengers are subject to search. If a commuter does not want to be scanned, officials say they'll need to find another way to reach their destination. The TSA is holding a demonstration of the scanning device later Wednesday that may help answer privacy questions. Watch the video, above, for Katherine Creag's report. http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/traffic/09 ... ting_new_screening_device
Posted on: 2009/6/10 15:13
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
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Homeland security works with all local police..We need many watchdogs at all levels
Posted on: 2009/6/10 3:25
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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Because an X-ray machine prevents a bomber from pulling the trigger while he is standing at the checkpoint? Because if you stop1 terrorist there aren't 12 more waiting to take his place? Anti-terrorism is the purview of the FBI and CIA, not local, civilian policing agencies.
Posted on: 2009/6/10 3:18
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
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Security fails when we dont screen people and then it is 2 late.
Posted on: 2009/6/10 3:14
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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If a terrorist bomber gets to the point that he is at a security checkpoint, it is already too late. A bomber can still detonate himself at the checkpoint. Security fail.
Posted on: 2009/6/10 2:58
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
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Unfortunately this is the sign of the times. I feel much better with a police prescence and if they have to search and screen so be it. If you have nothing to hide who cares. The Civil Liberties worries about the wrong things, our safety should be the number one issue, not peoples feelings.
Posted on: 2009/6/9 22:46
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
Joined:
2006/11/13 18:42 Last Login : 2022/2/28 7:31 From 280 Grove Street
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Security is BIG busine$$ and nothing to do with terrorist threats.
The biggest threat is GREED and CONTROL
Posted on: 2009/6/9 20:00
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My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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Oh who cares. People air their dirty laundry on this site all the ding dong day and now you're worried about a disinterested police officer seeing an xray of your body?
Big whoop. I care a lot about my civil liberties and my personal freedom, BTW, but to me, this is just not worth the battle. Public safety and all that.
Posted on: 2009/6/9 15:59
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Not too shy to talk
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The PA wants to introduce full-body image scanning into your daily commute and you guys are talking about RATS IN THE SUBWAY?
Do any of you realize that millimeter wave scanning essentially shows the device operator your naked body? Why is the Port Authority treating the PATH system like it's in the middle of a warzone? ----------------- http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90160599 This past week, the Transportation Security Administration introduced new security measures at Baltimore-Washington International Airport, including a controversial "whole-body scanner." The scanner provides guards with an image that strips away a traveler's clothing, revealing everything that person is carrying ? and their naked bodies. TSA spokesperson Christopher White shows Andrea Seabrook how it works. ------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner Clothing and other organic materials are translucent in some extremely high frequency (millimeter wave) radio frequency bands. ------------------- http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/20 ... -to-observe-naked-bodies/ More airports using virtual strip-search machines to observe naked bodies - "Officers reviewing the images don?t interact with passengers, or even see them. They sit in a separate area, look at the pictures on a monitor and push a button to either clear travellers or alert security about a suspicious item." (I personally don't see how this would work in a PATH station..) ------------------- 
Posted on: 2009/6/9 15:25
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Re: PATH: Security Screening
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Just can't stay away
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So those of you with IUDs and belly-rings, etc. - that will show up on these. Enjoy the last of your liberties...
Posted on: 2009/6/9 13:52
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PATH: Security Screening
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Home away from home
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Security Screening Pilot
Passive Millimeter Wave Technology Various PATH Stations June 10 - July 10, 2009 The U.S. Transportation Security Administration, in cooperation with PATH, a subsidiary of The Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, will test passive millimeter wave passenger screening technology that detects threats, including explosive devices. Passive millimeter wave technology does not emit radiation of any kind. It is safe and poses no risk to passengers. To learn more, visit http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/millimeter_wave.shtm All passengers entering a PATH station where screening is taking place are subject to the security screening. Passengers who do not wish to be subject to such screening, must exit at that station. http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/path/html/tsa_screening.html
Posted on: 2009/6/9 13:50
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