I'm game. I'll be there. Lets see how many 3 min speeches we can give on the topic! Can anyone make a petition?


PS SICULO
Quote:

We've already had a robust love fest about our overwhelming support for municonsol. This isn't a partisan issue. This is something WE want for OUR community (Christie or no Christie).

Christie is pushing hard for this and like it or not, this is the future for most municipalities, too much waste in local and state Gov.

Power to the new Gov!

I saw this NJ.com article: WWHD (What would Hudson do)? State pols from to host public forum on improving state

Go ask for municipal consolidation - lets cut the waste in this town:
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/02/post_65.html

I think consolidation of Hudson is a brilliant idea. For issues of development and transportation having just one administration would make a world of difference. Other than the cost savings, the more reasons to argue for this the better. In this era of corruption, I would think transparency and accountability could be greatly improved.

this is an exciting idea and i do hope it works out there ...

there was a constitutional convention in jersey back in 1947 ... it was called after a referendum --- as far as i can see ...

http://www.njstatelib.org/NJ_Informat ... itutionv1/NJConst1n2.html

if it does and it could happen here too, consolidating the large number of small, independent and irrelevant municipalities would be the first among the many changes that they should consider ...

is there a political will in the state to change to status quo? i doubt that there is the will today ... but who knows what will happen with increasing property and income tax levels, disappearing public services, etc ...

I've been following the California constitutional convention idea from afar - it has tremendous potential! I'm hopeful that it becomes a template for other states to address long-standing, sytemic, seemingly unsolvable problems. Something like this is probably what will be necessary to restructure NJ govt.

Quote: consolidation is likely to reduce the problem with wide-spread corruption. however, a fundamental change in the structure of the state's governance, government, and political infrastructure would (or could) change it http://www.repaircalifornia.org/

I would do almost anything to see this happen - work, poll, contribute, whatever. I don't think people around here understand the implications of consolidation and how much they are loosing out by going with status quo. We can be guaranteed there are plenty of politicians, unions, and other nominal contributors that would vehemently fight the change - it means a shift in power.

Yes - please give me better government! I am begging!

Municipalities are what hold NJ back from being the great state it could be

Initiatives work at local levels. I think it depends on the charter, but don't quote me on that. From what I know, the state only has one form of referendum. That referendum does not allow a vote to create a law or binds the legislature to do anything.

Aren't there two different types of referneda? There is a ballot initiative, which requires x number of signatures and is independent of the legislative process and there is the "open question" that I think you are describing - I'm pretty sure that's how it works. The Open Spaces initiative in November didn't require legislative action, did it?

I definitely agree that the legislature is never ever ever (NEVER) going to address this.

Actually, you might find this really interesting, but referenda don't mean anything in New Jersey. It's essentially a poll. Any referenda must be adopted by the state legislature (which means they have to vote on it) something they could have done in the first place.

So to recap:
The legislature votes to place a question on the ballot.
The people vote.
They then adopt the question into law if it passes.

The secret:
They could have adopted it as a law regardless.
They could pass it into law even if it fails.

Probably the biggest inhibitor to consolidaiton and municipal change derives from the fact that legislators who are often mayors and friends of mayors and municipal government must make the changes. No one likes to screw their friend :/

Quote:

Ah, we dare to dream! I agree with Mr. Levin, though - the referendum is probably the only way any of this type of stuff will come about, if ever. No way the majority of the currently entrenched state and local politicians (often one and the same) will do this on their own - completely at odds with their own best interests.

The fact that this thread was posted more than 24 hours ago and only six people have participated doesn't instill great confidence that you could excite enough people to get something meaningful off the ground. Talk costs nothing and just about everyone on this board isn't willing to invest even that much....

But, so as not to be a complete Debbie Downer, maybe a reasonable step is to enlist Melissa Hayes of the Jersey Journal. She posted in the property tax thread and is looking for story angles along the good governance (or at least the "rise up against bad governance") angle. I'll try her.

T-Bird: You?re right. The question is what do you do? I would be great if someone in this love-fest was ?someone?, and new the proper channels one needs to take to turn something like this into public policy. I?ll write the JCI just for kicks but I doubt that will get us anywhere. How does one lobby for this? Any ideas?

I doubt anything big will come of this; it certainly is fun to entertain the idea of good government or at least a marginally less horrendous government model.

The Answer is Municipal Consolidation! I agree too!

Quote:

It would, but at this point I'd settle for even a broader discussion. JCList is great and all, but a few dozen people agreeing with each other (while engendering a good feeling!) doesn't end up leading to anything.

Would be great to see the Star Ledger, JJ, JCI, and/or the Reporter pick this up and make it an ongoing topic that they investigate and report - not just reprinting someone's letter every so often. I don't see any other solutions on the horizon that have the same potential to fix the state's financial mess that consolidation does. Discussion of it shouldn't be confined to the dark recesses of the internet!!

now this would make a hell of a pubic referendum!

BRAVO on this topic!

I am more than ready to see municipalities broken apart and our social services consolidated at a county level. It would benefit all of us - it would also weed out corruption (or at least reduce the number of corrupt players).

I agree - the bastards that stand in our way are those who agree with what is essential elitist segregated schooling. Oddly enough, counties that maintain and update school districts every few year by making sure each school has a reasonable cross section of the people in the area, preform better in academics and sports.

Hudson would be a great pilot for this change - there is no one good anything here - no one looses out.

As I said, don't expect too much from Christie...reality is likely to slam him in the face like Obama

Hero: I sort of agree with you. I unfortunately don?t think its going to happen because lots of politicians don?t want to lose their positions in clout. I think in small town NJ, the property tax to school district elitism is very true, but I don?t think the same hold for Hudson. None of the school systems are stellar so I think it?s a hard sell to say that Jersey City will ruin Union City school; though that argument can have some ground in NB, Bayonne, and Secaucus. That said, that?s why I think we should avoid school, police and fire consolidation completely. We could have multiple school districts under one city-county superintendent. That way, it?s a non-issue. I know that sounds strange, but that concept is already the status quo today (we have a county superintendent though I?m not sure what they do).

T-Bird: You're right that schools are the biggest cash issue. Also, you continue to amaze with your concept of the cost figures.

Quote:

Hero - there's a world of difference between a small school (or more specifically, small class room) and a small school district. Should I be that concerned if my child's elementary school has 1,000 students (instead of 300) if the class size is 20 in either case?

Each administrator you eliminate pays for three or sometimes even four teachers. Same with maintenance, janitorial, capital expenditures. Also, the city/county then has a big piece of land that was previously occupied by an unnecessary school.

It feels like we've reached a breaking point: you can't really raise taxes much more and yet we're facing a colossal deficit that has to be filled. Hard choices are going to have to be made and they might not be popular, but schools are probably the easiest and most obvious place to start. You can cut a whole bunch without significantly affecting the end product.

I'd vote for your plan in a second. I focused on schools and cutting (particularly administration and operations) because there are an insanely high number of school districts in NJ. (603, to be exact. Compared to Maryland's 24. Really.) Police and fire are the third rail - there's no way you'll get anyone to go along with cutting there and that should be a last resort anyway. I like the idea of creating a much more substantial entity and the soft benefits that would likely accompany the real cost efficiencies.

To give you an idea of how heavy the lift is on local consolidation, I was at an event recently where (county exec.) Tom DeGise was speaking. The question of consolidation came up and he mentioned East Newark. He commented on how small it is, the duplicative services, etc. and then says: "But Joe Smith has been the mayor of East Newark for 42 years. He'd never go for it." Why are we asking Joe Smith? Why does he have more than one vote in that election? I understand the practical realities of the whole situation, but really.

The one benefit I'm hoping comes out of the Christie administration is that he begins to lay waste to this whole sordid mess. I think the only way he will have a second term is if he governs like he has one.

I agree that municipal consolidation is sorely needed. but you know what it aiin't gonna happen and why?

because those same people who complalin about sky high property taxes want their children in small school districts, etc.

T-Bird: I think we agree on most everything about consolidation. I like your solution. Your way would comprehensively consolidate 12 towns into 4; it would save loads and taxes for all of us. However, my solution would be a little different. I would merge all the municipal governments at once without changing services at all. It would be Hudson County City, Palisade City, or whatever you?d call it, but it would still have the same number of police, fire, and school districts. I think that solution could happen more feasibility because I don?t think schools, police, and fire districts will go quietly. They have powerful unions; wide-scoping contracts and they would kill consolidation if it started with any of the three. I think a government first model would provide an example to future consolidations and legal authority to eventual consolidation of services. You have a firmer grasp on the numbers than I do. If the school administration might be 3 million in Guttenberg, but the town is 17.5 m, we could save quite a bit by eliminating that government.

Again, your solution is a good as mine, and maybe better! I think my particular attachment to mine stems from the idea that we would have the largest city in the state, one of the largest in the country, and a real force an identity that we can take pride in and market to the world.

That said, neither of us have the option to make any of those alternatives reality. The reason I mentioned consolidation is because there is a new administration in Trenton talking about it. I honestly do not think a radical change of the current law will change anything. It will take the legislature to create anything meaningful. So, if republican gov. and new democratic legislature with new leadership wants to make a change that will lower taxes, they?ll have to force towns to consolidate. They have the power now, and I wish they would.

3G - I agree completely about consolidation, but I wouldn't hold my breath for any great length of time expecting to see a massive roll-up into the county. This is a great thread topic - what specific suggestions would you make for consolidation.

While county-wide consolidation should be the goal, there are certainly more bite-size steps we could and should be taking on the road to that goal. Here is my $0.02:

There are twelve municipalities in our little county, including bumps in the road such as Guttenberg (0.2 sq. miles) and East Newark (0.1 sq. miles). East Newark has a population of 2,377 and consists of literally a dozen blocks. Yet it has a school district (k-8 school, a superintendent and a business administrator), a mayor, six-person city council and other basic services. The administrative and operating costs of the school district are just under $1 million per year. The total non-county portion of E. Newark's taxes are $2.5 million.

Guttenberg also has a school district with a similar overhead burden, but since it's k-8 population is about four times the size of E Newark's, the admin/op costs are $3 million per year. Another mayor, five more council people, etc. The total non-county portion of Guttenberg's taxes are $17.6 million.

Similar cases can be made for Weehawken, Union City, West NY, and Harrison, but Guttenberg and East Newark are the most obvious examples. As a first step, I would roll-up two-thirds of the municipalities so that there would be only four left (combining JC with Bayonne; Harrison with Kearny and ENewark; Secaucus with North Bergen; and the rest - Hoboken/Weehawken/WNY, Guttenberg and Union City)create a regional fire system for the southern half of the county (same as the existing northern regional fire system) and consolidate the school districts into the county.

Several articles like the one below have come out in the past few days. The only solution that could provide long-term lower taxes is Municipal Consolidation. This is true. Unfortunately, The Christie administration is looking at changing the consolidation laws just as the Corzine people did. The legislature has the power to create and dissolve municipal governments. If the new administration was serious about consolidation, they would pass a law mandating that local government merge into county government by like 2012 or 2014.
Personally, I think Hudson should be the first to consolidate. It?s the only way to compete with an identity as large as New York City.

http://www.nj.com/opinion/times/oped/ ... 63710709126320.xml&coll=5

http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20 ... ris++consider+these+ideas