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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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La_Verdad wrote:
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MDM wrote:

Electric cars would replace ICE if the energy storage issues could ever be worked out. Current technology based on lithium / cobalt is not economically viable, safe, or environmentally sound. The issues have been papered over via subsidies, tax breaks, and a lot of virtue signalling."


And oil producers, refiners, pipelines, and automakers haven't benefited from subsidies and tax breaks? Not to mention the massive externalities they create and do not pay for. Please.

There is a misconception about insufficient battery life in today's electric vehicles. Many (not all) EVs offer 200+ mile range per charge. The misconception stems from people not understanding how they actually use their car 95+% of the time. For the vast majority of the people, the vast majority of the time, 200 miles per day is much more than necessary. I'm not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy an EV, but if you honestly assess your needs, there is a good chance that battery life isn't an actual barrier to purchasing one.


My reaction was the same: to bemoan subsidies for EVs while the oil industry continues to enjoy unfettered support and subsidies from the government (both directly, and indirectly) seems a bit myopic, or downright disingenuous.

Hybrids no longer enjoy any sort of tax incentive (at least at the federal government) and the tax credit for EVs is quite limited (available to the first 200K deliveries for a BRAND/MAKER) so the overall cost to the federal government is much smaller than the cost of support and subsidies provided to the oil industry.

Anyone that doubts that EVs will someday overtake regular ICE vehicles is simply in denial. That person would have likely also thought that cars in general were a fad and horse-drawn carriages would prevail. Advances in technology have made EVs more affordable and more suitable for everyday use for the average person.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the only challenge to EV ownership for the vast majority people would be long road trips, and that's an issue that goes away for certain brands, such as Tesla and Porsche very soon. As other manufacturers adopt more advanced charging technologies, this will soon cease to be a concern. But, for the rest of population that seldom travels more than 100+ miles in a day, this is a non issue.

Posted on: 6/7 22:42
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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MDM wrote:

Electric cars would replace ICE if the energy storage issues could ever be worked out. Current technology based on lithium / cobalt is not economically viable, safe, or environmentally sound. The issues have been papered over via subsidies, tax breaks, and a lot of virtue signalling."


And oil producers, refiners, pipelines, and automakers haven't benefited from subsidies and tax breaks? Not to mention the massive externalities they create and do not pay for. Please.

There is a misconception about insufficient battery life in today's electric vehicles. Many (not all) EVs offer 200+ mile range per charge. The misconception stems from people not understanding how they actually use their car 95+% of the time. For the vast majority of the people, the vast majority of the time, 200 miles per day is much more than necessary. I'm not telling anyone they should or shouldn't buy an EV, but if you honestly assess your needs, there is a good chance that battery life isn't an actual barrier to purchasing one.

Posted on: 6/7 18:44
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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MDM wrote:
Electric cars would replace ICE if the energy storage issues could ever be worked out.


I agree, but hybrids are different animal than EVs. You get the braking regeneration, huge in the city, and added acceleration from the battery so you can downsize the IC engine. A massive amount of fuel waste comes from the oversized engines of modern cars, they're vastly overpowered compared to older vehicles. My 1991 Caravan had 150 hp, and was just fine, I drove it at 90mph across Montana and up and down mountains all over Appalachia. The 2001 had 180, my 2010 Odyssey has 244 hp, the 2019 has 280. All that engine development could have given better mileage rather than more power. This is why people are hitting 45 mph by the middle of a 400 ft long block.

Posted on: 6/7 17:56
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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When the Prius came out I thought all cars would be hybrids within a decade, it just made so much damn sense. Now it's more than 2, and they're still exotic. What a mess. You're right, every transit, fleet or local business vehicle on the road should be EV.


Electric cars would replace ICE if the energy storage issues could ever be worked out. Current technology based on lithium / cobalt is not economically viable, safe, or environmentally sound. The issues have been papered over via subsidies, tax breaks, and a lot of virtue signalling. Short of government mandating their purchase (which will have dire economic and environmental consequences)... when the subsidies / tax breaks disappear, so will hybrids and electric vehicles. The exception being expensive toys for wealthy people.

There are companies / groups working on alternative technology: Batteries based on aluminum have far greater storage capacity, but a very short lifespan. So far, they are reserved for special military applications.

There is also hope that graphene based batteries might work (there has been progress in this regard), but so far, none have been built that could economically power an electric car.


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Posted on: 6/7 13:59
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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Jersey City to buy 5 electric garbage trucks with $2M in state funds

Today 11:20 AM (6/6/2019)
By Jordan Wolman | The Jersey Journal

Jersey City residents may soon notice some new additions to city streets thanks to $2 million in state funding.

New Jersey’s Department of Environmental Protection recently awarded Jersey City more than $2 million to purchase five new electric garbage trucks, which will replace the city’s fleet of diesel trucks.

The city’s proposal, aimed at curbing carbon emissions and improving air quality, was chosen from more than 150 submissions. The funds come out of the state’s $72.2 million share of federal settlements following a lawsuit against Volkswagen for recording fraudulent emission levels in their diesel vehicles.

https://www.nj.com/hudson/2019/06/jers ... th-2m-in-state-funds.html

Posted on: 6/6 15:57
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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Left unmentioned: will the charging stations that will be accessible to the public be free? Most small to midsized cities around the country have moved to provide subsidize charging stations that provide free charging to the public during non-business hours. This is a great way to encourage adoption of EVs by the general public.

Right now, the largest obstacle to EV ownership in JC, or any other urban city, is a lack of convenient charging solutions. Cities that deploy charging stations in government buildings and parking lots help address that problem by making them available for general use after hours, and most of them do so free of charge. It would be nice to see the same here.


Isn't the entire block of First between Marin and Provost charging stations? I'm not saying it's enough to shift the market, but there are a lot there and they're never fully occupied.


I did mention that stretch of charging stations in one of previous replies. But, it should be pointed out that there are two sections to the street charging units. The easternmost section (directly in front of The ArtHouse JC) are zoned for EXCLUSIVE use by EVs, and the municipal code stipulates that the cars must be plugged in and charging. There is a huge caveat, though: the charging stations are from the ChargePoint network, but only 2 of them are available to the general public. The others are actually "restricted use" and you must have a further membership with Greenspot in order to use them. The western section (the one in front of The Oakman) are actually NOT EV exclusive, so they are usually taken by regular vehicles. Of those stations, I think most (or, all?) are fully available to any ChargePoint customer. The rates being levied by ChargePoint at those stations are REALLY high.

In any case, whether 10 or 15 stations are available, this is very limited, and not entirely practical, unless you happen to live close by. There are 20 Tesla chargers at the Newport Mall parking lot, along with a few stations from other networks, and those see a lot of use. The city has not made a conscious effort to support an EV charging infrastructure, and so that makes the adoption of EVs locally more challenging than it needs to be.

As for the other concerns mentioned by the other poster, the matter of range anxiety is very overblown (most people only commute short distances and seldom require roundtrips longer than 100 miles) and newer standards and technologies allow some EVs to charge at very high rates, and battery capacity continues to improve. The only time an EV becomes impractical for the average person is when attempting a long road trip, as charging times make it entirely impractical, unless you are driving a Tesla, which are able to go longer, and charge in a fraction of the time.

Posted on: 6/6 14:45
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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Left unmentioned: will the charging stations that will be accessible to the public be free? Most small to midsized cities around the country have moved to provide subsidize charging stations that provide free charging to the public during non-business hours. This is a great way to encourage adoption of EVs by the general public.

Right now, the largest obstacle to EV ownership in JC, or any other urban city, is a lack of convenient charging solutions. Cities that deploy charging stations in government buildings and parking lots help address that problem by making them available for general use after hours, and most of them do so free of charge. It would be nice to see the same here.


Isn't the entire block of First between Marin and Provost charging stations? I'm not saying it's enough to shift the market, but there are a lot there and they're never fully occupied.

Posted on: 6/6 12:17
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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What is a total no-brainer for all cars and this is the direction things are going, is the mass implementation of hybrid motors by car makers.


When the Prius came out I thought all cars would be hybrids within a decade, it just made so much damn sense. Now it's more than 2, and they're still exotic. What a mess. You're right, every transit, fleet or local business vehicle on the road should be EV.

Posted on: 6/6 2:07
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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This is a great step in the right direction. These are fleet vehicles that have a very rigid and defined scheduled use which easily allows for EV ownership.

For individuals in JC (and elsewhere for the matter), owning an EV is nearly impossible. There is not enough of a charging infrastructure that would make it feasible for the average car owner. California is a classic example. Has massive demand and still cannot build the charging network to meet it. I'm all for EV's, but we are a far ways away from making it accessible, easy and range anxiety free.

What is a total no-brainer for all cars and this is the direction things are going, is the mass implementation of hybrid motors by car makers. This allows for zero charging, no range anxiety and heavily reduces emissions. 90% of people driving a modern hybrid would have no clue about the difference from a driving and more important, ownership experience.

Summary.....buy a Hybrid. Once there are local charging stations readily available and you don't need to travel long distances, by and EV.

Posted on: 6/5 23:00
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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All the no turn on red signs recently put up has been terrible for air quality.
...but a whole lot better for pedestrians. Every other driver never looked right for who was on the curb, stepping off.


Perhaps. But, a couple of problems: people continue to flaunt that type of signage (never have I lived or visited anywhere where STOP signs are treated as entirely optional) and enforcement is abysmal. Additionally, while drivers around here are overly entitled and downright dangerous, the pedestrians are not any better: lots of people jump off the curb from in between parked cars without seeming regard for their own person. And, add to that the many asswipes that ride on sidewalks and come out flying at intersections, and you have a recipe for chaos, which is exactly what happens. I have had a TON of people come off sidewalks on bikes at high speed and as a driver you are not expecting (or, looking for) cyclists to appear in a crosswalk as you are approaching or about to cross.


Pedestrians without self preservation skills truly amaze me. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the middle of a parallel park when someone walks between me and the car I'm about to kiss. A postal worker did it the other day and looked at me in disgust when I pointed out to her she nearly got hit.

Engineer all you want, without enforcement the shitshow will continue.

Posted on: 6/5 17:44
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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All the no turn on red signs recently put up has been terrible for air quality.
...but a whole lot better for pedestrians. Every other driver never looked right for who was on the curb, stepping off.


Perhaps. But, a couple of problems: people continue to flaunt that type of signage (never have I lived or visited anywhere where STOP signs are treated as entirely optional) and enforcement is abysmal. Additionally, while drivers around here are overly entitled and downright dangerous, the pedestrians are not any better: lots of people jump off the curb from in between parked cars without seeming regard for their own person. And, add to that the many asswipes that ride on sidewalks and come out flying at intersections, and you have a recipe for chaos, which is exactly what happens. I have had a TON of people come off sidewalks on bikes at high speed and as a driver you are not expecting (or, looking for) cyclists to appear in a crosswalk as you are approaching or about to cross.

Posted on: 6/5 17:14
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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All the no turn on red signs recently put up has been terrible for air quality.
...but a whole lot better for pedestrians. Every other driver never looked right for who was on the curb, stepping off.

Posted on: 6/5 16:09
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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135jc wrote:
All the no turn on red signs recently put up has been terrible for air quality.


Yet more reason to encourage adoption of EVs by the general population. NYC has adopted well defined plans to try and get a large percentage of cars on the road to be electric (desired goal is at least 20%, iirc) and while it may seem lofty, over in Norway they have achieved even greater numbers. In fact, during the past quarter (or, year?) the majority of new car registrations were for EVs. With the right policies in place, an entire country is being transformed in a few years. There is no reason why we couldn't accomplish the same. There are some very real and valid benefits to increased adoption of EVs, chief among them an improvement in general air quality. Currently, NYC has one of the highest pediatric asthma incidence in the nation, which has spurred the city into adoption stringent idling laws, and to push for EV adoption.

If we are serious about becoming the best mid-sized city in the US, we should be studying what other cities are doing and perhaps emulate some of their policies.

Posted on: 6/5 14:16
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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All the no turn on red signs recently put up has been terrible for air quality.

Posted on: 6/5 0:30
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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bodhipooh wrote:
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Left unmentioned: will the charging stations that will be accessible to the public be free? Most small to midsized cities around the country have moved to provide subsidize charging stations that provide free charging to the public during non-business hours. This is a great way to encourage adoption of EVs by the general public.

Right now, the largest obstacle to EV ownership in JC, or any other urban city, is a lack of convenient charging solutions. Cities that deploy charging stations in government buildings and parking lots help address that problem by making them available for general use after hours, and most of them do so free of charge. It would be nice to see the same here.


This being JC, land of the entitled prick driver, what will you do when someone simply takes the spot, EV or not, and leaves their car there all day? You can't depend on city enforcement.


The "city owned" charging stations I have used in other places (Rochester, NY and Nashville, TN) are both accessible to the public during non business hours, and free to use (the city covers the cost) and if you try to leave a car parked at city hall, or at a fire station, it would just be towed. Seems easy enough to enforce, given that these are city lots where someone is bound to notice a non-city vehicle taking up a spot, especially if said car is a regular ICE vehicle that is not plugged in.

As for enforcement of non-city owned chargers (say, in public areas, like the stations along 1st St) the city has been spotty on enforcement: some days they come around and ticket vehicles that are parked on those spots without plugging in, and other days they ignore those vehicles. It doesn't help that half of the stations are "optional" EV parking (ie, not exclusive for the use of EV) and the Parking Authority PEOs dont seem able to keep things straight. So, yes, agreed that enforcement could/should be better in public areas, but the enforcement of charging stations in city owned facilites and lots should be a cinch.

Posted on: 6/5 0:07
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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bodhipooh wrote:
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Left unmentioned: will the charging stations that will be accessible to the public be free? Most small to midsized cities around the country have moved to provide subsidize charging stations that provide free charging to the public during non-business hours. This is a great way to encourage adoption of EVs by the general public.

Right now, the largest obstacle to EV ownership in JC, or any other urban city, is a lack of convenient charging solutions. Cities that deploy charging stations in government buildings and parking lots help address that problem by making them available for general use after hours, and most of them do so free of charge. It would be nice to see the same here.


This being JC, land of the entitled prick driver, what will you do when someone simply takes the spot, EV or not, and leaves their car there all day? You can't depend on city enforcement.

Posted on: 6/4 20:11
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Re: New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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Left unmentioned: will the charging stations that will be accessible to the public be free? Most small to midsized cities around the country have moved to provide subsidize charging stations that provide free charging to the public during non-business hours. This is a great way to encourage adoption of EVs by the general public.

Right now, the largest obstacle to EV ownership in JC, or any other urban city, is a lack of convenient charging solutions. Cities that deploy charging stations in government buildings and parking lots help address that problem by making them available for general use after hours, and most of them do so free of charge. It would be nice to see the same here.

Posted on: 6/4 19:22
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New Electric Garbage Trucks...
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