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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolomiti wrote:
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jcdd wrote:
Dolomiti - shame on you!

I feel no shame whatsoever for being rational about assessing risk or infrastructure requirements.


I feel no shame whatsoever for being rational about assessing risk or infrastructure requirements paid.

Posted on: 2013/2/23 8:07
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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jcdd wrote:
Dolomiti - shame on you!

I feel no shame whatsoever for being rational about assessing risk or infrastructure requirements.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 22:50
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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vindication15 wrote:
What risk does putting the pipeline in teh Hudson pose?

That's a good question. I can only guess that if an underwater pipeline does leak, it's going to take a lot longer, and pollute a lot more, before it can be fixed.


As compared to having it near schools, parks, and homes when it leaks and/or explodes? Are you nuts? Let's say it pollutes all of the hudson and kills a million fish as compared to giving one child lifelong health problems. I will take it polluting the Hudson any day of the week.

Do you see the fallacy of your argument? You are saying, "IF IT DOES LEAK" then saying "It's not a death trap."

Let's just assume that it's an extremely safe pipeline with only 1 error in a million pipes built. That one error can result in harm to human life so if there is another way (underwater and has been done before with other gas pipes) then why not do it? Oh yeah, cause Spectra execs need to buy those sports cars and spend it on prostitutes.




Posted on: 2013/2/22 22:44
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolomiti - shame on you!

Posted on: 2013/2/22 22:32
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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vindication15 wrote:
What risk does putting the pipeline in teh Hudson pose?

That's a good question. I can only guess that if an underwater pipeline does leak, it's going to take a lot longer, and pollute a lot more, before it can be fixed.

We've already used the Arthur Kill as a dumping ground for about a century, and the Hudson is also just getting clean. It might not be a bad idea to stop treating those waterways like big garbage cans. Just a thought.

PCB's might not be present in large amounts near Manhattan. The only PCB-related dredging that I'm aware of is much further up the Hudson.

But the more critical point for me is that I'm not regarding this as a long string of dynamite in the first place, so I don't see a pressing need to send it all underwater.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 22:31
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolimiti: come clean - are you in the energy business? Do you have any affiliation with Spectra? DO you stand to profit/benefit from the pipeline in any way?

No
No
and No.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 22:12
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Screw your odds of it not happening. It did happen in Edison. I drove home from work that night on rt 287 about an hour before the big bang. I still have that what if feeling. I had work mates who lived in Durham Woods. Durham Woods was sort of by itself back then not much surrounding it. I can?t image what the effect would be if it happened in JC.

The Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation Natural Gas Pipeline Explosion and Fire occurred in Edison, New Jersey on March 23, 1994 where a 36" diameter natural gas pipeline broke and exploded into flames next to the Durham Woods apartment complex along New Durham Road at its junction with Interstate 287. The cause of this breakage was given by the NTSB as mechanical damage. The resulting fire destroyed or severely damaged 14 of the apartment buildings. Over 1,500 apartment residents were evacuated, 100 residents were left homeless, and one death occurred from a heart attack suffered by Sandra Snyder, who was unable to summon emergency workers "amid the chaos." Because the fire occurred so close to the Durham Woods complex, residents in the area also refer to it as the Durham Woods fire.

This is real this is the Durham Woods fire..?.
(takes a while to get started, listen to the roar)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature= ... _detailpage&v=NyMbaZ9FVjA









PS ? the topper is I read from the Spectra FAQ?s that the gas in the pipeline is odorless. We are not going to know what hit us.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 21:49
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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It's useless having a discussion with this dirty shill. Make an excellent point, and he'll try to deflect attention to any other topic than actually address your point. It's a pathetic tactic, not only for its desperation but for its obvious transparency.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 20:25
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolomiti wrote:
[a bunch of stuff after selectively cutting and pasting from my reply]


Well okay, what about tanker trucks and residential gas? How many miles long was the biggest fuel-carrying tanker convoy you have ever seen? In fact, have you ever seen a convoy of tanker trucks, of any length, snaking its way through a metropolitan area? That sounds like a bad idea, doesn?t it?

When we talk about a large-diameter transmission pipeline, we?re talking about highly compressed flammable gas, contained in an enormous pressure vessel that stretches for miles. Likening it to fuel-oil tankers or small residential gas pipelines at low pressure is inaccurate if not plain dishonest. If you want to sound like you have a vested interest in the pipeline?s construction and use, you?re on the right track, but I hope that isn?t the case.

How will this pipeline become an expensive hurdle? How won?t it? Take the highway and interchange for example. It will require major renovation and/or redesign during the lifespan of the pipeline. That will mean carefully working around it, limiting the design options for transit infrastructure, and making the work much more expensive. There?s enough crap in the way already.

My criticism of the pipeline route isn?t alarmist or irrational. I?m mostly critical of two aspects: (1) Its low tolerance for mishap, and (2) its potential interference with future development and civil engineering work. It just isn?t the brightest plan that Spectra could have proposed.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 20:12
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vindication15 wrote:
What risk does putting the pipeline in teh Hudson pose? if the pipeline leaks, blows up, or anything else - isn't it better to have the Hudson and wildlife affected VERSUS THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY?
You can't have it both ways - say the pipeline is unsafe in the water but totally safe on land. That's retarded.
Even in terms of construction - isn't it better to disturb the hudson and bring up whatever contaminants there are in the water and kill fish instead of doing it on land and risking the health of THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY
Again, there is ABSOLUTELY no good reason why this can't be in the Hudson

If they can put a couple of tunnels through the Hudson why not a pipeline.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 19:16
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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What risk does putting the pipeline in teh Hudson pose? if the pipeline leaks, blows up, or anything else - isn't it better to have the Hudson and wildlife affected VERSUS THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY?

You can't have it both ways - say the pipeline is unsafe in the water but totally safe on land. That's retarded.

Even in terms of construction - isn't it better to disturb the hudson and bring up whatever contaminants there are in the water and kill fish instead of doing it on land and risking the health of THE PEOPLE OF JERSEY CITY

Again, there is ABSOLUTELY no good reason why this can't be in the Hudson


Posted on: 2013/2/22 19:05
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Dolimiti: come clean - are you in the energy business? Do you have any affiliation with Spectra? DO you stand to profit/benefit from the pipeline in any way?


Posted on: 2013/2/22 19:01
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Frank_M wrote:
The point I?m making is that some things have very low tolerance for error, and a large diameter, high pressure gas transmission line.... is one of those things.

True, but the history indicates that residential gas lines -- which unquestionably will be running into those exact same areas when they're developed -- carry similar, if not the same, risks.

The same logic can be applied to the gas stations located at the Holland Tunnel entrance. Obviously if a station did go up in flames, it would shut down the tunnel (probably in both directions) for a few days. Why is it not "inevitable" that over, say, a 100 year span, one of them will catch on fire? Or, gas tankers intermittently catch on fire; over 100 years, is it not "inevitable" that one will burst into flames on the Turnpike?

Actually, the odds on that are pretty good. As in, it's already happened. In November 2011, a tanker caught on fire near Exit 18W on the Turnpike. (http://gothamist.com/2011/11/08/video ... reball_on_jersey_turn.php) And yet, we don't block tankers from driving in JC, on major highways or near critical infrastructure.


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This pipeline will most likely become an expensive hurdle standing in the way of improving our transit infrastructure over the next half century.

How?

Most of the areas near the rail lines are already slated for development. Or do you believe that in 50 years, NJ Transit will want to demolish a string of residential towers, and what is now the A&P and 18th Street, and whatever will be built next to Newport Green Park, to put in additional rail lines? Or that it is impossible to work around existing infrastructure?

There is no doubt that the Light Rail goes right over numerous residential gas lines. They successfully constructed it without causing any ruptures or explosions.

Speaking of which, keep in mind that local opposition to the Light Rail was fierce. We see this right now in Tenafly, whose residents insist they don't want it because of concerns over safety, the EIS, parking, disruption of the main shopping district... So maybe the real barrier won't be a pipe in the ground whose location will be marked, it'll be local opposition to *cough* added infrastructure.


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Unfortunately, the route seems to driven by Spectra?s profitability and their helpful industry colleagues in the FERC more than just the energy requirements of NYC.

There's no question that Spectra is trying to make its lines profitable; that's what companies do.

Putting in infrastructure is always going to be resisted, no matter what. Any citizen who loses the battle will insists that the government agencies involved are corrupt and/or the victim of regulatory capture.

That said, sinking pipelines in the Arthur Kill (once one of the most polluted waterways on the planet, and now barely eking out a recovery) and the Hudson River has its own hazards.

It also seems unwise to wait until Manhattan has completely maxed out its capacity before remotely considering allowing any improvements.


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Nuclear fission.... probably claims lives every day....

I won't say "nuclear power plants and weapons are 100% safe." The problem is that every type of fossil fuel or nuclear power has risks and costs lives.

Coal mining is dangerous, and the tailings are a huge environmental problem. Oil production is also hazardous, and sparks lots of political conflict. Both harm the environment when used to generate electricity.

Renewable energy is significantly safer, and better for the environment (although building the devices still has a carbon footprint). But generating enough energy for NYC via renewable sources is beyond our current abilities.

For example, a pilot water turbine project in the East River installed 30 turbines at a cost of $7 million, and provided power to 10,000 Manhattan residents. At current usage rates, you'd need 5,000 turbines to meet Manhattan's electricity requirements, at a cost of $1.7 trillion. If the units become twice as effective at half the cost, you're still looking at 2500 units @ $450 million. Even the most optimistic forecasts suggest that water power will cover 15% of US energy needs.


Anything we do right now carries a risk, and we constantly live with these risks. The risks of the transmission pipeline are being vastly overstated, and ultimately all that does is scare the residents, without really making their lives any safer.

Posted on: 2013/2/22 18:45
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MDM wrote:
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Frank_M wrote:


The fatality rate from nuclear weapons is even lower--does that make them safe?
.



Technically, that would make our storage and handling of the weapons very safe. Though we did lose in the Pacific years ago. It was never found.


edit: The Air Force also dropped an H-bomb off Georgia in the 50's. It's still out in the ocean.. somewhere...


The point I?m making is that some things have very low tolerance for error, and a large diameter, high pressure gas transmission line running through a major access point to and from the island of Manhattan?an access point that itself will experience a hyperactive rate of major development and construction in the future?is one of those things.

For example, the region between JC and Hoboken where the pipeline will turn east is currently a post-industrial civil engineering mess, but it will probably not be recognizable as such in fifty years. Additionally, while a major pipeline accident is a low probability event, when it is tested against a large number of trials, an unexpected result becomes increasingly inevitable. Given the lifespan of the pipeline and its location in proximity to future major works, I wouldn?t bet on its safety.

Finally, we don?t even have to talk about worst case scenarios. The pipeline runs along a major highway, under a major interchange, and close to important rail and automobile tunnels, all of which are currently undersized for their service. This pipeline will most likely become an expensive hurdle standing in the way of improving our transit infrastructure over the next half century. Unfortunately, the route seems to driven by Spectra?s profitability and their helpful industry colleagues in the FERC more than just the energy requirements of NYC.

(Nuclear fission is another technology, whether deployed for weapons or energy, with an exceptionally low tolerance for error, and its opportunity for accident and catastrophe is repeatedly tested on a large scale. But realistically, it probably claims lives every day. Carcinogenic radioactive contamination released into the environment from works at Hanford, Oak Ridge, and Los Alamos, and the boosted weapon tests in the Marshall Islands is not insignificant, and may only be a fraction what Soviet projects were responsible for. The accidents at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima were also events that we can?t afford. So no, it?s really not safe even though people have not been deliberately attacked with nuclear weapons since 1945.)

Posted on: 2013/2/22 14:35
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Frank_M wrote:


The fatality rate from nuclear weapons is even lower--does that make them safe?
.



Technically, that would make our storage and handling of the weapons very safe. Though we did lose in the Pacific years ago. It was never found.


edit: The Air Force also dropped an H-bomb off Georgia in the 50's. It's still out in the ocean.. somewhere...

Posted on: 2013/2/21 23:21
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Dolomiti says there are environmental concerns as to putting the pipeline in the water. God forbid we put the fish and wildlife in the polluted Hudson river at risk - instead lets offload that risk on to the citizens of Jersey City.

Environmental risk = nice convenient little excuse for Spectra to take the CHEAPEST option possible at the risk to humans.

DO you want to talk about environmental risks? Spectra plans on building this pipeline under the 78 extension near the Mary Benson park - which was recently closed due to lead contamination. Per the JC director of public works, the entire e area near the park/78 (directly where the pipeline construction will take place) likely has lead contamination. THey don't know why yet. Either is is because of filler that was used to "fill" the area way back when, or perhaps it is sloughing off the turnpike extension itself. Has Spectra considered the potential for further airborne lead contamination when construction begins in this area? Again, it is within 100 feet from a school. The EPA should be invovled.

Dolomiti, why don't you be honest with us and disclose your affiliation with Spectra? Are you somehow benefiting from this? DO you expect to?

Posted on: 2013/2/21 23:10
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I was just being dramatic because I can't possibly believe a homeowner can be in support of this pipeline. In any case, spectra should put this in the river....no reason besides profits that they do not

Posted on: 2013/2/21 22:37
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You didn't answer my question, Dolomiti. I live about 275 meters from the 30" pipeline.

Where do you live in relation to it?


Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
I've lived in JC for over 10 years, I'm a homeowner. Heaven forbid I disagree with people on this topic... or point out that most people are terrible at evaluating risk.


Posted on: 2013/2/21 20:47
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AlexC wrote:
Really - on top of idiocy, why the hell should we take the risk for NYC gas customers? FCUK NYC, let them take the risk and pay the added cost of running it through Staten Island and the Hudson River.

Again, there is very little risk, as there are already residential gas lines running on every street and into every house.

Dozens, if not hundreds, of other communities "take the risk" so that Jersey City can get what it needs. This includes the pipelines that run to the Linden, NJ facilities; trucks that carry 12,000 gallons of gas to our gas stations; ports in Newark that receive those gas and other hazardous material shipments; and others that receive all our garbage and sewage. Many of these offer no direct benefit to those communities.

If everyone in Lambertville said "Screw Jersey City, the gas line that goes through here is dangerous for us and we don't get anything for it," where should the pipeline go? What community would not make the same calculation?

Running lines in water is not risk-free. There are environmental concerns, and the lines still have to land somewhere.

NYC is also, quite clearly, a big economic engine for JC. That should be rather obvious after Sandy disrupted PATH service. What benefits NYC indirectly benefits JC.


Hey Spectra representative, I mean whatever your name is, some of us are not arguing for no pipeline at all. We want your company to make just SLIGHTLY less in profits and route this in the hudson.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 19:22
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kellyh wrote:
More worried about food poisoning... please.

OK then, why aren't you concerned about gasoline tanker trucks, which drive in and through Jersey City every day?

Resized Image

Resized Image

How about gas stations?

Resized Image


There are over 5000 fires at gas stations every year, which claim an average of two lives. 1 in 13 gas stations has a fire every year. Should we not locate gas stations near tunnels, schools, parks and highways? (http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp? ... on%20safety&cookie_test=1)


I will grant you that photos of big explosions are much more dramatic than deaths by food poisoning. I mean, look at this e.coli, it's kinda neat.

Resized Image


The point is: You can't determine the actual risk by looking at a scary photo. That's why we need to examine the facts and the statistics, not rely on emotional appeals.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 19:04
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AlexC wrote:
Really - on top of idiocy, why the hell should we take the risk for NYC gas customers? FCUK NYC, let them take the risk and pay the added cost of running it through Staten Island and the Hudson River.

Again, there is very little risk, as there are already residential gas lines running on every street and into every house.

Dozens, if not hundreds, of other communities "take the risk" so that Jersey City can get what it needs. This includes the pipelines that run to the Linden, NJ facilities; trucks that carry 12,000 gallons of gas to our gas stations; ports in Newark that receive those gas and other hazardous material shipments; and others that receive all our garbage and sewage. Many of these offer no direct benefit to those communities.

If everyone in Lambertville said "Screw Jersey City, the gas line that goes through here is dangerous for us and we don't get anything for it," where should the pipeline go? What community would not make the same calculation?

Running lines in water is not risk-free. There are environmental concerns, and the lines still have to land somewhere.

NYC is also, quite clearly, a big economic engine for JC. That should be rather obvious after Sandy disrupted PATH service. What benefits NYC indirectly benefits JC.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 18:28
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Dolomiti wrote:
Again, look at the PG&E map I linked above. There are gas transmission lines running through residential neighborhoods in every major city in the Bay Area and beyond, including San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, San Jose, Monterey, Sacramento, and so on. (Link: http://www.pge.com/myhome/edusafety/s ... as/transmissionpipelines/ )


Notice that the transmission lines serving San Francisco aren?t running through Oakland.

Yes, major gas lines already exist in our region, but the issue is the wisdom of installing this pipeline, now. A project like this should be weighed based on its own potential merits and shortcomings over the lifespan of the pipe, not, ?What?s one more??

Posted on: 2013/2/21 18:19
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Your math is intellectually dishonest. Two people die per year in the whole country, the majority of which don't live anywhere near a gas pipeline.

Again, look at the PG&E map I linked above. There are gas transmission lines running through residential neighborhoods in every major city in the Bay Area and beyond, including San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, San Jose, Monterey, Sacramento, and so on. (Link: http://www.pge.com/myhome/edusafety/s ... as/transmissionpipelines/ )

The new line is only an extension from a huge storage facility in Linden, NJ -- which means the gas lines run through numerous dense suburban cities. Existing lines already come into NYC, which means they have to go through dense suburban areas. I believe one Con Ed facility is currently located in Hunts Point in the Bronx.

And there are residential gas lines running to almost every apartment, house and business in the US.

So, the number of people who eat every day in restaurants IS roughly equivalent to the number of people who are living right on top of gas lines.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 17:04
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More worried about food poisoning... please.
Resized Image


Posted on: 2013/2/21 16:46
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Dolomiti wrote:
I've lived in JC for over 10 years, I'm a homeowner. Heaven forbid I disagree with people on this topic... or point out that most people are terrible at evaluating risk.


I appreciate your objectivity, but in your evaluation, are you weighing the risk against the expected pace and magnitude of residential, commercial, highway, and rail development along the pipeline route over its service life? That?s what, 50 years? Similarly, how do you expect its presence will affect long-term development, positively or negatively?

Chances are, this is the most profitable route for Spectra, but it stands to become somebody else?s very expensive problem in the future.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 15:24
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Okay, Dolomiti, my home is about 275 feet from the pipeline.

Where do YOU live?

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Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

tommyc_37 wrote:
Who is this Dolomiti character and why is he/she supporting the pipeline?

Oh, for cryin' out loud.

I've lived in JC for over 10 years, I'm a homeowner. Heaven forbid I disagree with people on this topic... or point out that most people are terrible at evaluating risk.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 14:24
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Really - on top of idiocy, why the hell should we take the risk for NYC gas customers? FCUK NYC, let them take the risk and pay the added cost of running it through Staten Island and the Hudson River.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 14:21
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolomiti wrote:
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kellyh wrote:
And what makes you such an expert?

I'm not an expert, and I have no more information than anyone else. I've stated the facts as I know them, and it's all from public sources.

If you want to know about risk evaluation, Dan Gardner's book The Science of Fear is a decent place to start: http://www.amazon.com/Science-Fear-Sh ... ves-Greater/dp/0525950621

A Psychology Today article also summarized some recent findings on the topic. Several items mentioned in the article likely apply here. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articl ... ays-we-get-the-odds-wrong


Other people have said it well. But I'd add: it doesn't seem unreasonable to fear putting a high-pressure gas pipeline, alongside train tracks carrying chlorine gas, through critical infrastructure, through a densely populated area, a mile or so away from the site of world's worst terrorist attack ever...

I didn't believe any of the 9-11 conspiracy theories. But this pipeline is sheer federal idiocy at best.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 14:13
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Dolomiti wrote:
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kellyh wrote:
And what makes you such an expert?

I'm not an expert, and I have no more information than anyone else. I've stated the facts as I know them, and it's all from public sources.



You're either deliberately or ignorantly misrepresenting the so-called "facts".

Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:

Carbon monoxide poisoning kills around 500 people per year. In contrast, an average of 2 people per year die in gas pipeline explosions. And 5,700 Americans die from food poisoning every year.

I'm 2,850 times more likely to be killed by eating in a neighborhood restaurant than I am to be blown up in a gas explosion. So which of these two should concern me?


Your math is intellectually dishonest. Two people die per year in the whole country, the majority of which don't live anywhere near a gas pipeline. Conversely, the vast majority of Americans (arguably) go out to eat in a restaurants. If the number of people who eat at a restaurant on any given day equalled the number of people living on top of a gas pipeline, you could make a direct comparison of the statistics.

Dismissing the opposition to the pipeline as "good ol' NIMBYism" ignores the fact that perhaps people don't like filthy corporations steamrolling over their concerns for property values and personal safety.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 13:01
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Re: HUGE GAS PIPELINE COMING - through Jersey City
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Chalking concerns up to irrational fears doesn't actually address the issue.

Yes - in all likelihood there won't be any issues, but in the case that some sort of explosion happens it would be disastrous. JC gets very little in return for assuming this risk for the benefit of NYC's energy market.

Why take the chance ? Theres no reason not to run it straight from Staten Island.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 2:00
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