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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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nugnfutz,

i would agree with you that a telephone survey is nothing short of bogus. if that is where these statistics originated from, then the accuracy is very questionable....BUT:

lets say they are really really really inaccurate. like 50%. meaning, 50% of the reported bites that were reported through this survey simply never happened, or the formula used to put together a country wide figure was inappropriate. is over 2 million bites per year an acceptable number for you? does that not show a serious problem with having dogs roaming around in public?

4.7 million adjusted to 50% error would be 2.35 million bites per year. with 300 million people living in America, that would mean that would be about 2 out of every 300 people get bit, or 1 out of every 150. to me, this number is unacceptable. even if that survey in the end resulted in a 75% error, the numbers are still staggering.

now, i ask myself, how accurate, if AT ALL, are these new, extrapolated statistics, and my first instinct tells me they're a little far fetched, i can only think of a few instances growing up where a friend or classmate was bitten badly by a dog, but who knows?

Posted on: 2008/1/28 12:25
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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From fighters to friends, Vick's pit bulls learn new life
CNN 1.27.08
(AP) -- His back resting comfortably against her chest, Hector nestles his massive canine head into Leslie Nuccio's shoulder, high-fiving pit bull paws against human hands.

The big dog -- 52 pounds -- is social, people-focused, happy now, it seems, wearing a rhinestone collar in his new home in sunny California.

But as Hector sits up, deep scars stand out on his chest, and his eyes are imploring.

Hector ought to be dead, Nuccio knows -- killed in a staged fight, executed for not winning or euthanized by those who see pit bulls seized in busts as "kennel trash," unsuited to any kind of normal life.

Instead, Hector is learning how to be a pet.

After the hell of a fighting ring, he has reached a heaven of sorts: saved by a series of unlikely breaks, transported thousands of miles, along with other dogs rescued with him, and now nurtured by Nuccio, her roommate, Danielle White, and their three other dogs.

The animals barrel around the house, with 4-year-old Hector leading the puppy-like antics -- stealth underwear grabs from the laundry basket, dashes across the living room, food heists from the coffee table -- until it's "love time" and he decelerates and engulfs the women in a hug. VideoWatch why the dogs can shift from fighting rings to family circles ?

"I wish he could let us know what happened to him," says Nuccio, the big tan dog's foster mother.

But what she does know is this: Hector has come a long way since he was trapped in the horrors of Michael Vick's Bad Newz Kennels.

The bust

Authorities descending last year on 1915 Moonlight Road in Surry County, Virginia, found the venue where Vick, the former NFL quarterback, and others staged pit bull fights in covered sheds, tested the animals' fighting prowess and destroyed and disposed of dogs that weren't good fighters.

Vick is serving a 23-month federal sentence after admitting he bankrolled the dogfighting operation and helped kill at least six dogs. Three co-defendants also pleaded guilty and were sentenced. The four now face state animal cruelty charges.

Oscar Allen, who sold a champion pit bull to Vick's dogfighting operation, was sentenced Friday on a federal dogfighting charge.

Officers who carried out the raid found dogs, some injured and scarred, chained to buried car axles. Forensic experts discovered remains of dogs that had been shot, electrocuted, drowned, hanged or slammed to the ground for lacking a desire to fight.

Hector and more than 50 other American Pit Bull Terriers or pit bull mixes were gathered up. So were "parting sticks" used to open fighting dogs' mouths, treadmills to condition them and a "rape stand" used to restrain female dogs that did not submit willingly to breeding.

The dogs, held as evidence in the criminal prosecutions, were taken to six different pounds and shelters in Virginia.

Hector was bunked in the Hanover pound in a cage below a dog named Uba who was smaller and showing anxiety.

Uba flattened on all fours when Tim Racer, an evaluator on a team assembled by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, arrived at his cage.

"Are you going to kill me now?" was the message another evaluator, Donna Reynolds, read in Uba's eyes.

The black-and-white dog tried to wriggle away once out of the cage, but he came around after a while. He wagged his tail when the team showed him a 4-foot doll, to test his response to children. He spun around and got into a play position when they brought out a dog.

"This is the big secret. Most of them were dog-tolerant to dog-social. It was completely opposite of what we were led to believe," Reynolds said.

How much to trust the capacity of fighting dogs to have a new life as pets or working dogs is an issue that has divided animal advocates. Some believe they should be put down as a precaution, while others say they must be evaluated individually. One dog seized at Bad Newz was euthanized as too aggressive, but the others have had different fates.

Nearly half have been sent to a Utah sanctuary, Best Friends Animal Society, where handlers will work with them. None showed human aggression and many have potential for adoption someday. Others, evaluated as being immediate candidates for foster care and eventual adoption, went to several other groups.

Chance for a new life

Among the latter was Hector.

A team of animal welfare experts got things rolling last July when federal authorities sought ownership of the seized dogs. The result, they say, was groundbreaking.

The Oakland, California-based pit bull rescue and education group Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit Bulls, or BAD RAP, which had done similar rescues from busts in California, asked Assistant U.S. Attorney Michael Gill for permission to evaluate and rescue as many of the dogs as possible, with the hope of eventually placing them in adoptive homes.

"Much to our amazement, he said yes," said Reynolds, who heads BAD RAP. "This doesn't happen. People don't say yes to pit bulls."

Gill declined to comment, but those familiar with the Vick case said the Justice Department hoped early on to find a way to give the dogs a second chance. As part of his plea deal, Vick agreed to pay for the dogs' care.

The court even appointed a guardian and special master, Valparaiso University animal law expert Rebecca Huss, who oversaw the dogs' disposition and recommended which rescue groups would accept them.

One result of the unusual process, said ASPCA's Stephen Zawistowski, is that shelters that always euthanized such dogs are now saying "you've given us permission to care" about giving them a second chance.

Each dog was evaluated as an individual. Huss recalled the good-natured-but-quiet Rose, whose overbreeding had led to mammary tumors. In the end, needing surgery but unable to tolerate anesthesia, Rose was mercifully put down, just days after being transferred to a foster home.

"The good thing was she didn't die in the shelter," Huss said. "She had a little time in the sun, not enough, but a little time in the sun."

Huss received reports from an ASPCA-led evaluation team and from volunteers who observed and worked with the dogs where they were being held as evidence in shelters and pounds.

Nicole Rattay, a volunteer from BAD RAP, spent six weeks visiting the Vick dogs in shelters every day, e-mailing and phoning her observations to Huss.

"Some dogs were ready to learn 'sit' and obedience," she said. "Some needed more time to accept touch and feel comfortable in their surrounding. Sometimes I would just sit in their kennels." For some, bits of roasted chicken became a "motivator," she said.

She mentioned Handsome Dan, who bridled at touching at first but gradually grew more comfortable, though not enough for foster home placement, at least not yet. He ended up going to Best Friends.

"I hope that he can overcome what was done to him," said Rattay.

Hector's journey

BAD RAP won government approval in mid-October to transport a group of dogs to California foster homes to get them out of confinement.

Hector and a dozen others were about to make the cross-country trip in a rented 33-foot recreational vehicle.

But first, they had to get ready.

Four BAD RAP members -- Racer, Reynolds, Rattay and Steve Smith -- cruised a Richmond, Virginia, Wal-Mart, loading up with doggy sleeping mats, crates, bowls and chew sticks. The next day, they split up in twos to pick up, bathe and exercise the 13 pit bulls from four shelters. Then they loaded them up.

Rattay walked through the RV, cooing and checking her cargo to the thump-thump-thump of happy tails against dog crates. One dog circled his bed. Another stretched and yawned. A third slathered her outstretched hand with kisses.

"Oh my goodness," she cooed to them. "It's nice to see you again. Hi buddy, hi."

At first, the caretakers put cardboard between the crates to offer the dogs privacy and calm. "But they were happier when they could see their neighbor," Rattay said.

She and Smith took turns driving and napping on the 2?-day trip (Racer and Reynolds flew home to prepare for the dogs' arrival).

The dogs drifted to sleep in their crates -- atop the RV table, benches, queen bed and couch, and an area above the cab -- but jumped right up each time the RV stopped for a break at a highway rest area.

Assembly-line style, the couple walked, watered and fed each of the 13 dogs, causing some gawks from other drivers who'd stopped, but never any questions from the dogs.

"They did fabulous," Rattay said. "They understood the program right away and got in and out of their crates."

Mostly things went fine for Hector and his fellow passengers in the rolling kennel, though one incident briefly worried Smith and Rattay.

It hadn't occurred to them to map a route that avoided places with ordinances banning pit bulls. A groundskeeper at an Arkansas rest stop warned them that "further down the road, they will take that dog from you unless you have proper paperwork."

"We finished it up and got moving," Rattay said.

At 10 a.m. on a Tuesday, Rattay pulled the RV in front of Racer and Reynolds' house.

It had been a long trip, and soon after the two couples unloaded and walked the dogs, both drivers and animals fell asleep in the living room waiting for foster families to arrive.

Smith snored a little, Rattay remembered, and a dog gave a low grumble.

Hector's settling into his new life, getting further and further from his past.

Weekly "canine good citizen" classes are correcting his social ineptitude. And he's taking cues on good manners from patient Pandora, a female pit bull mix who's queen of the household's dogs. Once Hector graduates, he'll take classes to become a certified therapy dog, helping at nursing homes and the like.

For now, he's learning the simple pleasures of a blanket at bedtime, a peanut butter-filled chew toy, even classical music.

"I put on Yo-Yo Ma one day and he cocked his head, laid down and listened to the cello next to the speaker," Nuccio said. "He's turning out to be a man of high class and culture."

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayofl ... 7/vick.dogs.ap/index.html

Posted on: 2008/1/27 20:54
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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PS:

If you extrapolate the 1.8% and 0.3% CDC numbers to Jersey City, it works out at over 80 dog bites/week, 14/week of which need medical treatment.

If the real JC numbers were this high, I don't think there'd be many other topics on this site.

Posted on: 2007/12/18 20:10
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Grovepath. READ THE REPORT. Let me make it easy for you.
Click here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog4.pdf

The figures you and the CDC throw around are based a TELEPHONE SURVEY. Not very scientific. No distinction was made between accidents (dog nipped my hand when grabbing a ball), versus real attacks. No independent verification. My point was the A&E stats are likely more reliable.

Posted on: 2007/12/18 18:03
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Quote:

nugnfutz wrote:

First read the report on the stats you throw around. This was a telephone survey, without independent verification. Around 5600 people (56%) responded to the phone survey, with 92 adults and 94 children reporting dog bites based on the phone survey. This data was then normalized and extrapolated to the entire population. Factual that there were 5 million dog bites in 1994? Doubt it. The hospital stats are probably more reliable for comparison.


From the CDC:

Annually in the United States 4.7 million people are bitten by dogs. Of these, approximately 800,000 people require medical attention. That is, each year 1.8% of the U.S. population is bitten by a dog, and 0.3% of the U.S. population seeks medical care for a bite.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm

Quote:

nugnfutz wrote:

However, the biggest impact overall is likely down to education: educating children, parents, dog owners, police, and others on how to deal with dogs.


Really!

Posted on: 2007/12/18 15:48
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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With all these stats, it only tells me we have a lot of dumb-ass owners out there that requires more regulatory control. License's are needed for all dogs and a test should be introduced to get that license.
Special extra training for the owners of breeds and/or individual dogs with the potential or perceived aggressive nature towards humans and other dogs, should be considered also.
Hopefully they can introduce a license for humans to have children - My all time hate is abused or neglected kids, and JC has more then its fair share - JC seems to be a magnet for lunatic parents and as a consequence feral kids running around

Posted on: 2007/12/18 12:44
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Quote:

trp3 wrote:
.........
1. maybe i'm just missing your point and construction of the "For" and "Against" list you made, but these two statements completely contradict each other. Is one of them true, or both of them wrong?

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
1. Public and press hysteria over dogs has created an unhealthly and unneccessary public fear of ALL dogs.


do you consider 5 million bites per year an "unnecessary public fear"? with such a high occurence, why would you trust ANYONE'S dog? with such high numbers, I would certainly be paranoid if I saw a dog approaching my 5 year old in a park.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many police carry dog treats?


oh no you dit' int'......

the day i see a cop with a bag of dog treats strapped to his belt is the day i lose all faith in law enforcement in the United States.

"HEY! Meyer! Don't forget your doggy treats! Yeah, they're being issued to all officers now. Make sure you feed a few dogs today. Oh yeah, and here's your bag of lollipops for the little boys and girls."

nugnfuts wrote:

Quote:
How many routinely stop day-to-day and pet local dogs on the street (which gives the dog their scent and marks them as a friend)?


who in their right mind would pet various dogs throughout the neighborhood while on patrol, knowing how potentially dangerous all of them are? not to mention, what good does that do? honestly? do the cops need to make it a priority to be in good standings with the neighborhoods' K-9's? this sounds totally absurd!

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many children without dogs are taught the "tree" or the "tortoise"?


WHAT

THE

HELL

is the "tree" or the "tortoise"??????????

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many parents let their kids give their scent to local dogs in their local park?


again.....5 MILLION bites a year.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many parents know the right way to stop a dog attacking their child? (I've seen recent horror stories on TV of mothers using their arms and bodies as shields and getting mauled.)


enlighten me, my friend. how does a 30 or 40 something year old woman pry an 80 or 90 pound dog off of her child's neck, face, or arm? hmmmmm? what would be "the right way" of handling that situation? do they offer this class in college, because i don't recall this one being offered:

How to murder a dog that is mauling your child 101.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
(Do you blame the SUV or the driver?)


if this is your "best comparison", then i guess i'll follow suit by saying this:

If it happens 5 million times a year, eventually you gotta start looking at the SUV.


First read the report on the stats you throw around. This was a telephone survey, without independent verification. Around 5600 people (56%) responded to the phone survey, with 92 adults and 94 children reporting dog bites based on the phone survey. This data was then normalized and extrapolated to the entire population. Factual that there were 5 million dog bites in 1994? Doubt it. The hospital stats are probably more reliable for comparison.

On the for-and-against on jaw strength, they are exactly that - two opposing points of view. My take is there is no difference in jaw strength of a pit versus say a German Shephard. The GS however hasn't typically been trained to fight and hasn't for example been trained to swing on a rope by jaw-power alone.

Regards public fear and what I consider irresponsible reporting, yes there is far too high a number of bites in the US. Even the 12 deaths or so is 12 too many. Scaremongering though creates more potential conflict, and in-turn creates the perfect circumstances for bites to occur. I'd much rather see parents (and non dog owners) feel comfortable with any contact with dogs, and to do that requires a certain confidence on how to deal with dogs other than a fear response. Similarly dog owners need to be better educated on how to control their dogs, and in-particular in how to recognise and avoid situations where their loving little bundle of fur bites the face off someone. The JJ report could have included some CDC recommendations such as:

Quote:

Preventing Dog Bites

Teach children basic safety around dogs and review regularly:

Do not approach an unfamiliar dog.
Do not run from a dog and scream.
Remain motionless (e.g., "be still like a tree") when approached by an unfamiliar dog.
If knocked over by a dog, roll into a ball and lie still (e.g., "be still like a log").
Do not play with a dog unless supervised by an adult.
Immediately report stray dogs or dogs displaying unusual behavior to an adult.
Avoid direct eye contact with a dog.
Do not disturb a dog who is sleeping, eating, or caring for puppies.
Do not pet a dog without allowing it to see and sniff you first.
If bitten, immediately report the bite to an adult.


How do you pry a dog off someone? You can break up a dog fight by grabbing the dogs back legs and pulling it away while circling. If it doesnt release its grip, use pepper spay, a trashcash lid or anything u can hit it hard on the head while keeping you separated from it. Umbrellas and fire extinguishers have also been known to work. Do they offer classes in this? No, but they should. No difference to giving people driving lessons and road safety classes imo.

Police and children avoiding peoples dogs because of 5 million bites/year? Think you have that the wrong way around. If the dog knows you and is introduced in a controlled way, it's much less likely to bite you. Your point illustrates the fear-mongering impact of the press. Police carrying dog treats absurd? Well, instead of shouting "stop or I'll shoot" to a dog in it's home protecting its territory, why not throw a treat first? Do the police need to be in good standing with local neighborhood K9s? Err yes - that'd be a great way to break down barriers between the police and community. Best way to get to know people is through their pets.

And on the SUV comparision - go look at the stats yourself.

Quote:

.....
In the United States during 2005, 1,451 children ages 14 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and approximately 203,000 were injured. That?s an average of 4 deaths and 556 injuries each day (NHTSA 2006b).
.....
and
Each year, 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites; half of these are children. Of those injured, 386,000 require treatment in an emergency department and about a dozen die.



For the CDC factsheets, I don't see dog bites listed as a major cause under http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/children.htm

Posted on: 2007/12/18 8:33
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
- a bite from a Pit is likely to cause more serious injury than from most other breed because of the power in its jaws and the fact it's nearly impossible to break its grip during a bite.


and then wrote:

Quote:
No evidence that Pits have stronger bite strength than comparable sized dogs, nor have they any "jaw-locking" mechanism other than through what is trained into them.


maybe i'm just missing your point and construction of the "For" and "Against" list you made, but these two statements completely contradict each other. Is one of them true, or both of them wrong?

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
1. Public and press hysteria over dogs has created an unhealthly and unneccessary public fear of ALL dogs.


do you consider 5 million bites per year an "unnecessary public fear"? with such a high occurence, why would you trust ANYONE'S dog? with such high numbers, I would certainly be paranoid if I saw a dog approaching my 5 year old in a park.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many police carry dog treats?


oh no you dit' int'......

the day i see a cop with a bag of dog treats strapped to his belt is the day i lose all faith in law enforcement in the United States.

"HEY! Meyer! Don't forget your doggy treats! Yeah, they're being issued to all officers now. Make sure you feed a few dogs today. Oh yeah, and here's your bag of lollipops for the little boys and girls."

nugnfuts wrote:

Quote:
How many routinely stop day-to-day and pet local dogs on the street (which gives the dog their scent and marks them as a friend)?


who in their right mind would pet various dogs throughout the neighborhood while on patrol, knowing how potentially dangerous all of them are? not to mention, what good does that do? honestly? do the cops need to make it a priority to be in good standings with the neighborhoods' K-9's? this sounds totally absurd!

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many children without dogs are taught the "tree" or the "tortoise"?


WHAT

THE

HELL

is the "tree" or the "tortoise"??????????

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many parents let their kids give their scent to local dogs in their local park?


again.....5 MILLION bites a year.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
How many parents know the right way to stop a dog attacking their child? (I've seen recent horror stories on TV of mothers using their arms and bodies as shields and getting mauled.)


enlighten me, my friend. how does a 30 or 40 something year old woman pry an 80 or 90 pound dog off of her child's neck, face, or arm? hmmmmm? what would be "the right way" of handling that situation? do they offer this class in college, because i don't recall this one being offered:

How to murder a dog that is mauling your child 101.

nugnfutz wrote:

Quote:
(Do you blame the SUV or the driver?)


if this is your "best comparison", then i guess i'll follow suit by saying this:

If it happens 5 million times a year, eventually you gotta start looking at the SUV.

Posted on: 2007/12/17 19:19
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Last few posts interesting. I love FBA's cartoons. (I'd like to see the one of bikers crashing into potholes be attached to each and everyone of those "bike lanes".

When we do events, we often hand out literature on how children should behave when they see strange dogs - either leashed or unleashed. Parents and guardians should also be aware that they should never leave dogs and toddlers alone and unsupervised. You can't expect a toddler to be able to read canine body language or back ott at a warning grown. No matter how trustworthy and good-natured the family pet is, he/she is only canine.

I regret not going through the whole list of dog breeds on that report. A Yorkie killing someone? What was the age of the victim? What were the circumstances? Sounds CSI worthy....

Posted on: 2007/12/17 18:04
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Posted on: 2007/12/17 14:00
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Quote:

trp3 wrote:
although I'm so completely sick of the freakin' dog talk on this website, i am routinely amazed by the blind ignorance of these psycho dog lovers. like, i don't know.......people that post using the name "CatsandDogs".........for example.

CatsandDogs wrote:

Quote:
Remember all, you are more likely to be bit by a mosquito carrying West Nile Virus than you are to get bit by a dog - pitbull or otherwise. Please stop the hysteria about pits for crying out loud.


sorry, but what a ridiculous statement.

i just checked the facts, and you couldn't be more incorrect.

there were, in 2006, 4269 cases of West Nile Virus in the USA last year.

now go to this website:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

better yet, don't bother, i'll give you a quick summary:

there are, on avg., just under 5 MILLION dog bites, per year, in the United States.

800,000 of which require medical attention, 368,000 of them need to be sent to emergency medical depts.

1,000 PER DAY are treated in Emergency Medical Rooms.

Quote: "Most of the victims who receive medical attention are children, half of whom are bitten in the face."

lovely.

the most common age for people being bit by dogs is 5 to 9 years old, and the numbers go down as the ages go up. on avg., only 26 attacks are fatal every year, but there sure are a hell of alot of young children walking around with scars on their faces or something worse, not to mention traumatized.

hell, google this kind of thing, there are lawyers all over the United States that specialize in dog bite cases. they make a living off of these repeating occurences.



Your right. Dog bites are one of the most common and serious causes of child injuries according to the CDC. Some people consider it an epidemic. As a dog owner I fully agree that problem needs tackling at every level.

Your also right on the comparison to mosquitos and West Nile. There's likely many more mosquito bites annually than dog bites, much less incidence of west nile versus A&E dog bite visits, but the comparison is fairly pointless. Entirely different problems.

So going back to the original question and the purpose behind it.

Should pit bulls be outlawed?

For:
- Pit bulls (and Rottweilers) respresent the 2 highest breeds that cause death in the USA according to the stats
- Pits are regularly trained to be "aggressive" for the purpose of 'sport" or as guard dogs.
- a bite from a Pit is likely to cause more serious injury than from most other breed because of the power in its jaws and the fact it's nearly impossible to break its grip during a bite.

Against
- No evidence that banning pits and similar breed reduces injury or deaths due to dog bites (from Canada and Britain)
- No evidence that Pits have stronger bite strength than comparable sized dogs, nor have they any "jaw-locking" mechanism other than through what is trained into them.
- Pits consistently score highly on breed temperament tests designed to test how well they deal with family and social situations.
- The bite statistics themselves are suspect since most people attribute every dog bite from an unknown type of dog to the Pit Bull, and there's no A&E record kept of cause of attack.

Most dog experts say that if you ban Pit Bulls, it will not tackle the real underlying causes of dog bites. I'd go a little futher and say the following:

1. Public and press hysteria over dogs has created an unhealthly and unneccessary public fear of ALL dogs. The best comparision to this would be the press creating a similar hysteria over SUVs and the relationship to injuries and deaths to children from road injuries involving SUVs. (Do you blame the SUV or the driver?)

2.Ban pits? What breeds are next? I'd bet the majority of the serious bite injuries are dogs that have been trained as guard dogs, or abused as fighting dogs. Do people think that banning pits solves this? Heck! An angry Jack Russell terrier can do near the same damage to a kid as a Pit for those people who know dogs.

3. Education, education, education. For example, the JCPD carry firearms, mace and all kinds of offensive weapons. They know they come into contact daily with local dogs. How many police carry dog treats? How many routinely stop day-to-day and pet local dogs on the street (which gives the dog their scent and marks them as a friend)? How many children without dogs are taught the "tree" or the "tortoise"? How many parents let their kids give their scent to local dogs in their local park? How many parents know the right way to stop a dog attacking their child? (I've seen recent horror stories on TV of mothers using their arms and bodies as shields and getting mauled.)

IMO the more people treat every dog with fear and as a potential attacker, the more self-fulfilling it becomes. Dogs sense fear and will react with fight or flight.

Enforcing existing city and state laws needs to happen. However, the biggest impact overall is likely down to education: educating children, parents, dog owners, police, and others on how to deal with dogs.

Posted on: 2007/12/17 9:32
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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I only posted that site because it had some interesting facts. A Yorkie actually killed someone between 1975 and 1980 for instance. But let's be honest, dogs are a lot more interesting and a lot better company then most of the folks who whine about them on these threads.

Posted on: 2007/12/17 2:56
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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although I'm so completely sick of the freakin' dog talk on this website, i am routinely amazed by the blind ignorance of these psycho dog lovers. like, i don't know.......people that post using the name "CatsandDogs".........for example.

CatsandDogs wrote:

Quote:
Remember all, you are more likely to be bit by a mosquito carrying West Nile Virus than you are to get bit by a dog - pitbull or otherwise. Please stop the hysteria about pits for crying out loud.


sorry, but what a ridiculous statement.

i just checked the facts, and you couldn't be more incorrect.

there were, in 2006, 4269 cases of West Nile Virus in the USA last year.

now go to this website:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

better yet, don't bother, i'll give you a quick summary:

there are, on avg., just under 5 MILLION dog bites, per year, in the United States.

800,000 of which require medical attention, 368,000 of them need to be sent to emergency medical depts.

1,000 PER DAY are treated in Emergency Medical Rooms.

Quote: "Most of the victims who receive medical attention are children, half of whom are bitten in the face."

lovely.

the most common age for people being bit by dogs is 5 to 9 years old, and the numbers go down as the ages go up. on avg., only 26 attacks are fatal every year, but there sure are a hell of alot of young children walking around with scars on their faces or something worse, not to mention traumatized.

hell, google this kind of thing, there are lawyers all over the United States that specialize in dog bite cases. they make a living off of these repeating occurences.

Posted on: 2007/12/16 22:41
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Well said Lindad.

Remember all, you are more likely to be bit by a mosquito carrying West Nile Virus than you are to get bit by a dog - pitbull or otherwise. Please stop the hysteria about pits for crying out loud.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 22:51
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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If you reread the article, fifty percent of the people polled were against a ban on pit bulls. It's all in the presentation, isn't it?

In addition, the article Vigilante posted regarding human fatalities from dog bites concluded that breed-specific legislation is ineffective . Legislators and law enforcers should punish the deed, not the breed. (I bet if that article was written in the 60's, German Shepherds and Doberman Pinschers would have been the dangerous dogs. Wonder which ones will top the list twenty years from now?)

As anyone who followed the posts on JC List regarding the Hamilton Park pit debacle would know, most of the dog people in Hamilton Park, including people whose dogs had been mauled, felt the same way. The majority of the posts reviled the woman as an irresponsible idiot. While the dog was identified as a pit, not one person called for a ban on the breed. They were angry that a person who could barely control an dog aggressive pet on leash - allowed him to run freely off-leash, putting other dogs at risk.

As far as the other incidents go, I am willing to bet that the owners of those pits - when said owners could be found - had a rap sheets longer than these pit bull threads.

I have always been drawn to large herding or working dogs like German Shepherds, collies and malemutes - and Dobies. After volunteering at the shelter for three years and handling temperment tested pits at PetSmart in Secaucus and other adoption events, I would definitely adopt a pit or a pit mix if the right one came along. I must say I would far prefer a pit over a Yorkie or any size poodle. Labs are cool dogs, but my neighborhood is a rough one. Because of profiling that would be called racist if we were talking humans instead of dogs, I would be much safer walking at night in my neighborhood with my pit than with my Lab. (Again, it is all in ther presentation - or should I say perception, isn't it?) From what I have seen of pit bull character, I know that if someone did attack me, my pit would lay down his or her life to defend me.

I agree with Bdlaw, Fat-Ass Biker and other posters that this is more a quality of life issues than a pit issue. Existing laws should be strictly enforced. Sadly, irresponsible breeding, responsible for many vicious German shepherds back in the day, will be more difficult to stop. Backyard breeders out for quick money will be harder to deal with.
While showing pits at adoption events, I have learned many potential "adoptors" are fine about having male pits neutered before adoption but lose interest when they find out the females will be spayed.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 22:32
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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I've got nothing constructive to add other than "christ on a cracker" is hilarious.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 16:42
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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when my chihuahua goes to the vet, the vets bring in TWO orderlies, instead of one. when i asked why, the response is that little dogs - at the vet - can be more violent/aggressive than big dogs - so for safety, they bring in two for little ones....

Posted on: 2007/12/14 15:27
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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christ on a cracker, are we honestly having another discussion about Pitbulls.....

Posted on: 2007/12/14 15:12
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Yeah, all of that could happen. Or considering current trends and politicos interest in kowtowing for votes, not. Quote:
"More American households have pets than ever ? 68.7 million of them in 2006, according to a new survey by the American Veterinary Medical Association, up 12.4 percent from 2001. Among dog owners, 53.5 percent considered their pets to be members of the family, the survey found.
New York Times 12.13.07 Although I wouldn't be opposed to licensing parents and registering children.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 4:20
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Good point GP and possibly the right way to attack it. Still...gonna be a tough sell. And the state might have to underwrite some of the homeowner insurance.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 4:06
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Landlords who rent to people with dangerous breeds could be required to have an up to date copy of the dog owners liability insurance on file as well as an updated copy of the license -- and what also seems obvious is that the state should not allow dangerous breeds in government housing.

If this was done it would likely affect change very quickly.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 3:36
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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Quote:

"Pit bulls are unlikely to replace poodles, Yorkies and Labs in the hearts and hearths of Hudson County residents anytime soon," wrote NJCU political science professor Fran Moran, one of the poll's authors.


Ummm...no shit sherlock! And what's your scientific or social point worthy of research from an institute of higher learning that we couldnt have got from a sleazy tabloid, or a Cosmo poll?

Quote:

I guess your neighborhood doesn't have the same dog issue as ours - Heaps of pit-bulls with most (from what I've seen) without those registration tags on the dogs. When 'siht hits the fan' around Arlington Park regarding dogs, no-one wants to claim ownership. Its a bit like that pit-bull off leash/attack fiasco with the woman near H/park.
Whatever happen to that dog / woman - was there a court case, or did it simply get swept under the rug like most things?


The NJ law is set up to litigate the owner or destroy the dog. If your dog mauls someone and you got no assets...well tough on the dog and the victim. A high percent of dog owners don't even even pay their license fee of under $10 a year. Think they give a flying sh*t about liability insurance, which would likely cost $500+/year for a pit? Alternatively is NJ going to fill jails with dog owners without licenses that cant pay dog liability insurance?

I think they're need to be a major shift in state and federal policies to make any kind of dent in this issue. And the experience in other countries suggests that dollars spent publicising public awareness of dog bites, and changing attitudes to dog-fighting probably reaps higher dividends than legislating against breeds.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 3:08
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Enforcing licensing laws is the first step to combating animal related problems - including dog bites. If there is accountability ie. your dog's tags can identify you within a matter of minutes as it's owner, you can bet your butt that people are going to be more careful about what their dog does. Like FAB said, something happens, the dogs aren't licensed and no one steps up as the dog's owner. Guess what? That person just got off, whether their dog crapped somewhere and they didn't pick it up or their dog severely mauled someone, they can't be held responsible because no one can prove that the dog belonged to them.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 2:31
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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I guess your neighborhood doesn't have the same dog issue as ours - Heaps of pit-bulls with most (from what I've seen) without those registration tags on the dogs. When 'siht hits the fan' around Arlington Park regarding dogs, no-one wants to claim ownership. Its a bit like that pit-bull off leash/attack fiasco with the woman near H/park.
Whatever happen to that dog / woman - was there a court case, or did it simply get swept under the rug like most things?

Posted on: 2007/12/13 23:51
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Quote:

fat-ass-bike wrote:
Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

I'd like to see that zero tolerance method take effect on dog ownership - Registration should be the highest penalty, then off leash and not picking up crap next.


Really? I mean, seriously? I know, let's make not registering your car an offense that carries 6 months suspended license plus a minimum 6 hours counseling, but DUI will be be a a $60 fine.


You need to register your car and have a license to operate it - maybe the same should be for dogs and their owners. It would help accountability, but enforcement of just the basic requirements of dog ownership should be enforced.


But NOT registering your car is much less bad then driving drunk. Just as NOT registering your dog is less bad then not picking up dog 5hit. Suggesting that penalties for not registering a dog be greater than not picking up dog crap is counter productive. The greater crime is leaving piles of steamy crap around for people to step in and spread disease; as a deterrent, the fines should be greater for failing to pick up after your dog.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 22:43
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Quote:

I'd like to see that zero tolerance method take effect on dog ownership - Registration should be the highest penalty, then off leash and not picking up crap next.


Really? I mean, seriously? I know, let's make not registering your car an offense that carries 6 months suspended license plus a minimum 6 hours counseling, but DUI will be be a a $60 fine.


You need to register your car and have a license to operate it - maybe the same should be for dogs and their owners. It would help accountability, but enforcement of just the basic requirements of dog ownership should be enforced.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 22:19
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous b
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Quote:

I'd like to see that zero tolerance method take effect on dog ownership - Registration should be the highest penalty, then off leash and not picking up crap next.


Really? I mean, seriously? I know, let's make not registering your car an offense that carries 6 months suspended license plus a minimum 6 hours counseling, but DUI will be be a a $60 fine.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 21:07
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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ps.

and to directly address the title of this thread. Does it really matter what randomly polled residents think? i mean over 50% of americans thought Ruben Studdard was the best bet for Idol, and we all know how that turned out.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 20:54
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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i second gencare.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 20:43
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Re: Hudson County: 31% think pit bulls should be outlawed, 50% believe they are the most dangerous breed
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The reason for the abundance of anti-Pit Bull sentiment, which by the way is unjustified, is ignorance.

Consider the following which you can verify through research on the web:

1. A correct temperment Pit Bull is human friendly and loyal, but may be animal aggressive. Animal aggression is different from human aggression.
2. One of the main reasons for human aggressive Pit Bulls is because of breeding done by irresponsible back yard breeders.
3. Even though a Pit Bull has been involved in dog fighting or has been abused, it can still be a great companion animal. It needs to be temperment tested. By the way, Pit Bulls do better then Goldens in temperment testing.
4. Pure bred Pits are much more predictable and stable then mix breeds. However mixed breds that have pit are are usually classified as a Pit or a Pit mix. Have you ever heard of a Lab Mix who happened to be part Pit?
5. Many dogs involved in vicious attacks are iincorrectly identified as pits because it was a vicious attack.
6. Petey from "Our Gang" was a Pit.
7. In the early 1900s Pits were referred to as "nursemaid dogs" because they are so good with children.
8. Sgt. Stubby (WW I) the most decorated army dog in U.S. history was a Pit and was credited with saving the lives of many American soldiers.

Posted on: 2007/12/13 20:27
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