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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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4 Hudson lawmakers punt on school funding bill

Nearly half of Hudson County's Trenton delegation did not vote on a school funding bill that would lead to a massive cut in state aid for Jersey City's public-school district while boosting funding for districts elsewhere in the county and statewide.

Two of the lawmakers — Assemblywomen Angelica Jimenez, D-West New York, and Angela McKnight, D-Jersey City — said they were not in Trenton for the Thursday vote. Both told The Jersey Journal they had children with school functions that night. Jimenez said she would not have voted "yes" if she had been present, while McKnight declined to say whether she would have or not.

https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _school_funding_bill.html


Posted on: 6/25 23:48
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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You provided a link citing numbers and rankings by which you state jcps janitors are the highest paid in the country.

I am telling you those figures include other expenses in addition to their salaries. The stats you cite are misleading. I already alluded to as to why that is so.

To that end you are wrong with your repeated assertion, but hey don't let the facts get in the way of your tirade or being open to learning something new.

Posted on: 6/6 15:01
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Trusting the BOE, or anyone in bed or business with them, is the very personification of trusting the fox to guard the henhouse.

Very simply, we need more visibility into their dealings, improved accountability, and quite likely, much more control over their operations. The current state of affairs is simply untenable for much longer. People are only now starting to wake up to the issues because of the reval, and things will get that much more interesting in a year or two, as the school funding topic gets increased attention and changes from Trenton. While a 2% property tax rate would be considered low by comparison to the state average, it will definitely get a ton of attention from local residents, particularly those in DTJC, as it would represent a 25% hike, on top of the reval adjusted levies.

Posted on: 6/6 13:29
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
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brewster wrote:
Bullshit. That's not what the link nor the cut and paste I posted from the state site says. Call the the state document wrong if you like, but don't say I'm misleading anyone or failing to understand.


I worked with the State Board of Education and the Jersey City Public School district and specifically on this matter.

You can go to the source, the NJ School Report Card Database and look up _the source_ of this information, as in the link you provided, for starters - but you are just too lazy or full of yourself to do so - much like your unwillingness to comprehend the information provided. Likewise, you can do the same - look at the school (capital) budget as I indicated earlier.


You again say the perfectly clear numbers I linked are wrong, don't provide a link to your data, and call ME lazy and full of myself????? BTW, I did try to find it on the awful JCBOE website you said it was on, now you're saying it's somewhere else.

Make up your mind or, God forbid, actually link the data rather than pontificate, so everyone can know. SO much of this game is obfuscation, even the format of the "user friendly" budget is deliberately misleading and confusing.

Posted on: 6/6 12:17
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brewster wrote:
Bullshit. That's not what the link nor the cut and paste I posted from the state site says. Call the the state document wrong if you like, but don't say I'm misleading anyone or failing to understand.


I worked with the State Board of Education and the Jersey City Public School district and specifically on this matter.

You can go to the source, the NJ School Report Card Database and look up _the source_ of this information, as in the link you provided, for starters - but you are just too lazy or full of yourself to do so - much like your unwillingness to comprehend the information provided. Likewise, you can do the same - look at the school (capital) budget as I indicated earlier.

Or better yet, bring it to the board of education's attention at the next monthly board meeting. I will guarantee you that someone from the board, whether it be a board member, the school BA, the facilities director (O'Reilly) will address what you incorrectly pontificate.

One can lead a horse to water, but cannot force them to drink. If you care to ignore the facts, so be it. But when you spread misinformation - and someone knowledgeable enough on the subject matter calls you out on it - own up to it.

Posted on: 6/6 10:41
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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But that's what JC has been doing, more so under Fulop but also by previous administrations by giving out PILOTS for parcels that don't deserve them. It deprived the JCBOE of money (which was made up by suburban taxpayers), and let the JC mayors keep the tax rate low as well as fund populist programs. PILOTS for a project on Ocean Avenue, I'm down with that. PILOT on the Hudson, not so much.

Posted on: 6/5 22:38
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Monroe wrote:

East Newark isn't a Abbott school system, doesn't contribute 200 million less than its local fair share like JC taxpayers, and isn't trying to put its hands in the pockets of other NJ taxpayers like JC is. So yeah, given JC's historic, epic, and continuing tradition of graft and corruption should be a part of this conversation.


There's the problem. By all means I do not want corruption, graft, or waste in Jersey City's public schools. But being covered under Abbott does not turn Jersey City into a "debtor" city that has to be better than its non-Abbott counterparts. Nor does it mean that as the city develops it must forego police, fire, infrastructure, open space, etc and give any surplus over to the schools.

And in any event, until recently Jersey City was run and overseen by the state. Interesting how state monitors were unable to find an excess $75 million that our current board cut.

Posted on: 6/5 22:09
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
The link you provided is for total maintenace costs, which include other expenses than salry and benefits. Your comments are ignorant and misleading.



Bullshit. That's not what the link nor the cut and paste I posted from the state site says. Call the the state document wrong if you like, but don't say I'm misleading anyone or failing to understand.

Salaries and Benefits for Operations and Maintenance of Plant
Per Pupil Ranking Within Group* (2016-17 budget): 100|101

http://www.nj.gov/cgi-bin/education/c ... dist_code2390&maxhits=650

This clearly states we pay more than all but one big district. I link to my data, link to yours rather than saying some doc says what you want it to say.

Posted on: 6/5 20:26
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JPhurst wrote:
And do you think that the districts clamoring for more funding are free of corruption, graft, and waste?

As I've noted before, this school board was told there was a $75 million gap. They closed it with no layoffs.

Some of it was cutting unnecessary expenses. Some of it involved sacrifices. Some of it involved taking bold steps in the face of vocal opposition (like saving $13 million by pulling out of the State School Employees health fund).

I am confident other districts could undertake similar measures and recognize spending.

We all talk about corruption in Jersey City. Let's not pretend other districts are free of it. East Newark's Micro-District just hired a superintendent under investigation, for goodness sake. "He's a good fit" said the board. Well ok then!


East Newark isn't a Abbott school system, doesn't contribute 200 million less than its local fair share like JC taxpayers, and isn't trying to put its hands in the pockets of other NJ taxpayers like JC is. So yeah, given JC's historic, epic, and continuing tradition of graft and corruption should be a part of this conversation.

Posted on: 6/5 20:06
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And do you think that the districts clamoring for more funding are free of corruption, graft, and waste?

As I've noted before, this school board was told there was a $75 million gap. They closed it with no layoffs.

Some of it was cutting unnecessary expenses. Some of it involved sacrifices. Some of it involved taking bold steps in the face of vocal opposition (like saving $13 million by pulling out of the State School Employees health fund).

I am confident other districts could undertake similar measures and recognize spending.

We all talk about corruption in Jersey City. Let's not pretend other districts are free of it. East Newark's Micro-District just hired a superintendent under investigation, for goodness sake. "He's a good fit" said the board. Well ok then!

Posted on: 6/5 19:47
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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And do you think that the districts clamoring for more funding are free of corruption, graft, and waste?

As I've noted before, this school board was told there was a $75 million gap. They closed it with no layoffs.

Some of it was cutting unnecessary expenses. Some of it involved sacrifices. Some of it involved taking bold steps in the face of vocal opposition (like saving $13 million by pulling out of the State School Employees health fund).

I am confident other districts could undertake similar measures and recognize spending.

We all talk about corruption in Jersey City. Let's not pretend other districts are free of it. East Newark's Micro-District just hired a superintendent under investigation, for goodness sake. "He's a good fit" said the board. Well ok then!

Posted on: 6/5 19:47
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Re: Will Jersey City and Hoboken ever lose Abbott District Status?
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Does anyone think the level of corruption and graft at the JC BOE is any lower than at any other municipal department in JC? Recreation, JCIA, the Parking Authority, the PD come to mind.

Posted on: 6/5 19:05
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You ask a question. Answers are provided and you summarily ignore them.

You should attend a BoE meeting and ask such questions publicly at the the boe meeting.

Before you do, I will respond one more time for YOUR benefit. You state incorrectly that our janitors are the highest paid in the state and country.

One can access salary data crom the school district's open doc website and see that is defintely not the case. The link you provided is for total maintenace costs, which include other expenses than salry and benefits. Your comments are ignorant and misleading.

The school district pays most of its "capital expenditures" out of its operating budget. With that, that inflates maintenance costs as reported by the state boe website. The JCPS schools are costly to maintain because of their age. That's it in a nutshell. It's really nothing scandolous. Sorry.

As for the low median household income for JC, that only reinforces the argument for Abbott district funding.


Posted on: 6/5 19:02
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JPhurst wrote:
Finally, throughout the various Abbott opinions it has been acknowledged that funding alone will not solve the problem. In the most recent decision Christie tried to reopen the entire line of cases and claim that funding doesn't solve the problem. The court's response is that funding alone wont do it, but funding is a necessary part of it.


Surely you must admit that the purpose of Abbott wasn't so that we could have the among the best paid janitors and the lowest funded extracurriculars in the state?

Posted on: 6/5 16:42
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Any school district, particularly one of Jersey City's size, is going to have to be different things to different people. It needs to take its most talented and accomplished and prepare them for an elite university education. It needs to take those that struggle the most and get them up to proficiency, and possibly the elite level as well! So yes you will have your gifted schools like McNair, alternative programs for those who need it, and everywhere in between.

McNair's success can be celebrated, even as we try to bring up the graduation rates at the other schools. I don't think either of those points affects the needs that were documented in Abbott.

Finally, throughout the various Abbott opinions it has been acknowledged that funding alone will not solve the problem. In the most recent decision Christie tried to reopen the entire line of cases and claim that funding doesn't solve the problem. The court's response is that funding alone wont do it, but funding is a necessary part of it.

Posted on: 6/5 16:34
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Kids that attend McNair probably have opportunities to go to private schools outside of the district, and McNair's prestige keeps them in the public school system.


Sure "probably", ehemm - no fallacy there - of course not.

How about kids at Liberty or Infinity High Schools in Jersey City? Why weren't they listed? (hint: they perform pretty well for an urban high school)

Resized Image


Because Liberty isn't a traditional high school, but a joint venture with Hudson County Community College-with an enrollment of around 200 students. Infinity is also a magnet school with an admission exam, and also partners with HCCC.

Posted on: 6/5 15:25
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Ralph_Abutts wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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That "100|101" means we spend more than 99 of 101 large NJ districts on operations salaries, which of course means we spend more than almost anyone in the country.


Ok, and... you do realize that NJ has the 2nd highest or so median household income in the country, too, with Northern NJ towing the South in that statistic.


Jersey City ranked 597 of 702 incorporated areas and census-designated places in New Jersey ranked by per capita income based on the 2000 United States Census. Granted that's a little stale, but hasn't changed that much, from $27,512 to 34,887 in 2016, in 2016 dollars. So why are our janitors the best paid in the state?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... ions_by_per_capita_income

Posted on: 6/5 15:20
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brewster wrote:
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That "100|101" means we spend more than 99 of 101 large NJ districts on operations salaries, which of course means we spend more than almost anyone in the country.


Ok, and... you do realize that NJ has the 2nd highest or so median household income in the country, too, with Northern NJ towing the South in that statistic.

Posted on: 6/5 14:37
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Kids that attend McNair probably have opportunities to go to private schools outside of the district, and McNair's prestige keeps them in the public school system.


Sure "probably", ehemm - no fallacy there - of course not.

How about kids at Liberty or Infinity High Schools in Jersey City? Why weren't they listed? (hint: they perform pretty well for an urban high school)

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Posted on: 6/5 14:32
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Bike_Lane wrote:
How much of this "more than average" spending is just the cost of providing two free meals a day to __% of the students in the system, versus the cost of actually providing the education?


Why don't you look for yourself?

Salaries and Benefits for Operations and Maintenance of Plant
Per Pupil Amount (2016-17 budget): $1,775
Per Pupil Ranking Within Group* (2016-17 budget): 100|101
% of Budgetary Cost Per Pupil (2016-17): 9.9%

That "100|101" means we spend more than 99 of 101 large NJ districts on operations salaries, which of course means we spend more than almost anyone in the country.

http://www.nj.gov/cgi-bin/education/c ... dist_code2390&maxhits=650

Posted on: 6/5 14:03
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Monroe wrote:
Because it's a magnet school. Its graduation rate is 100%, and that 100% rate is what keeps the overall JC graduation rate at 75%, almost 20% under the state average.
Individually
Dickinson 78%
Ferris 75%
Lincoln 69%
Snyder 51%


It's a magnet school for students that reside in Jersey City, only. If the student is not attending McNair, then they are attending one of the other high schools you listed.


Kids that attend McNair probably have opportunities to go to private schools outside of the district, and McNair's prestige keeps them in the public school system.

Posted on: 6/5 14:01
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brewster wrote:
To me the fact that we spend at the top for maintenance salaries...


Because the school district's buildings are much older than nearly all other school districts. Start counting how many of its schools are over a century in age - you may run out of fingers doing so. Also, look at the school district's capital budget - that will raise an eyebrow.

Posted on: 6/5 13:54
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Monroe wrote:
Because it's a magnet school. Its graduation rate is 100%, and that 100% rate is what keeps the overall JC graduation rate at 75%, almost 20% under the state average.
Individually
Dickinson 78%
Ferris 75%
Lincoln 69%
Snyder 51%


It's a magnet school for students that reside in Jersey City, only. If the student is not attending McNair, then they are attending one of the other high schools you listed. Innumeracy personified.

Posted on: 6/5 13:50
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How much of this "more than average" spending is just the cost of providing two free meals a day to __% of the students in the system, versus the cost of actually providing the education?

Posted on: 6/5 13:09
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Monroe, you'd be more credible if you focused on how the money is spent rather than graduation rates. To me the fact that we spend at the top for maintenance salaries yet near the bottom on extracurriculars, the things like arts and sports that motivates kids to stay in school and see it as a positive, is far more salient. Paying staff more in an already high paying state does not obviously improve outcomes, and I doubt that's what Abbott was intended to primarily do.

Posted on: 6/5 13:00
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Because it's a magnet school. Its graduation rate is 100%, and that 100% rate is what keeps the overall JC graduation rate at 75%, almost 20% under the state average.
Individually
Dickinson 78%
Ferris 75%
Lincoln 69%
Snyder 51%

JC (well, NJ taxpayers mostly) spends just shy of 20% more per student than the state average.

Posted on: 6/5 12:37
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The fallacy is that SFRA numbers somehow are the be all and end all of what districts and their students need. It's the same as saying the Supreme Court's opinion is just an "opinion."

The Supreme Court's opinion is based on documented findings of fact and conclusions of law. Similarly, SFRA is a legislative judgment. Can we question the Supreme Court's opinion? Sure, just as we can question the cluster#*@7 that is the SFRA, which tried to cram square pegs into round holes.

And of course, you question the SFRA too. Because Adjustment Aid was made part of the SFRA, so it cannot be counter to its purpose. But you seem to eliminate the parts of it you don't like while proclaiming the sanctity of the rest.

But the mask is slipping off. This is no longer about treating others fairly. It is an attempt to overrule Abbott entirely.
Abbott, along with Mr. Laurel, were the two major civil rights cases in modern New Jersey history. Implement them, completely. And if the state wants to bring others up to par as well, that's fine and good. Not one at the expense of the other.

Posted on: 6/5 12:29
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"Jersey City high schools are among the worst in the state..." and then you cherry-pick using Ferris High School. How convenient. Why not include McNair?

Posted on: 6/5 12:20
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I think what we all should agree on is that the basic theme of Abbott, to throw more money and resources to these school districts, has been an almost complete and utter failure.

Jersey City high schools are among the worst in the state, despite much higher than state average spending. Same with virtually every other Abbott district.

This resource (I'm using Ferris HS) gives you all the information you need to confirm that. Despite spending $4,000 more per student than the state average, and having a student teacher ratio of 10/1 vs the state average of 12/1, Ferris graduates less than 60% of its students-far below the state average of 94%.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/jam ... erris-high-school-profile

Posted on: 6/5 12:10
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Monroe wrote:
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I'll research it later, but between when I was in high school and my kids were in high school I'd say there was 2-3X the number of non-teaching admin staff (in the same HS). This weighs much more financially than the salary of, say, a superintendent.


That's not necessary. However, understanding what was originally written is.

The point is, a higher superintendent's salary favors higher salaries for those "non-teaching admin staff" within the same school district. Capiche?

Posted on: 6/5 12:03
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