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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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neverleft wrote:

Wait CCN piece has more detail about the NYPD and choke holds.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/opinion ... dows/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

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Ok, that's what I thought. So then I don't understand how he managed to avoid the indictment.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:45
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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The ME said the chest and neck compression and his prone position, along with his contributory asthma, morbid obesity, and high blood pressure were the causes.

He resisted arrest, and died because of it. The Grand Jury has spoken, and they've seen ALL the evidence.

Go protest, if that'll make you feel better.

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vindication15 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Read the ME report rather than your own view of a video that shows only a portion of the event.

Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
When you die Monroe, I'm sure stupidity will be a contributing factor to your death but not a cause of it. Better learn the difference today. Good job, by the way, of me totally falsifying your claim of police only using a chokehold to bring him down and not acknowledging it. Were you on the grand jury?


I did. The ME said the cause of death was the chokehold. Do you have a bank account? Can you pm the number so I can transfer some money to you so you can attend elementary school.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:44
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Wait this CCN piece has more detail about the NYPD and choke holds.

"Members of the New York City Police Department will not use choke holds," Section 203-11 of the NYPD Patrol Guide says. "A choke hold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/opinion ... dows/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

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Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:44
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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neverleft wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
What really would be expected to do the officer in, though, was the illegal choke hold. Anyone that spent more time reading the info on this care to comment?


CNN experts were just saying the choke hold is not illegal in NYC. It is not recommended to be used but it not illegal.


Ah, then that would explain the result.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:41
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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devilsadvocate wrote:
What really would be expected to do the officer in, though, was the illegal choke hold. Anyone that spent more time reading the info on this care to comment?


CNN experts were just saying the choke hold is not illegal in NYC. It is not recommended to be used but it not illegal.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:40
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Monroe wrote:
Read the ME report rather than your own view of a video that shows only a portion of the event.

Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
When you die Monroe, I'm sure stupidity will be a contributing factor to your death but not a cause of it. Better learn the difference today. Good job, by the way, of me totally falsifying your claim of police only using a chokehold to bring him down and not acknowledging it. Were you on the grand jury?


I did. The ME said the cause of death was the chokehold. Do you have a bank account? Can you pm the number so I can transfer some money to you so you can attend elementary school.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:38
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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JCMan8 wrote:
Here is another very puzzling aspect of the Garner case someone may have more insight on.

"Other officers seen on the video restraining Garner on the ground were given immunity in return for their testimony, WCBS 880’s Irene Cornell reported."

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/0 ... ic-garner-chokehold-case/

Why should all other cops receive immunity? I can't imagine such an analogy with civilians. Either everyone else gets charged with some kind of accomplice crime, or no crime at all. Certainly not some kind of preemptive immunity.


Actually, that isn't surprising. The real issue here is the use of an illegal choke hold during an arrest that caused someone to die. Only one officer did that. Makes sense to offer immunity to other cops to get them to actually be forthcoming in order to get the one conviction that matters.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:37
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Here is another very puzzling aspect of the Garner case someone may have more insight on.

"Other officers seen on the video restraining Garner on the ground were given immunity in return for their testimony, WCBS 880’s Irene Cornell reported."

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/0 ... ic-garner-chokehold-case/

Why should all other cops receive immunity? I can't imagine such an analogy with civilians. Either everyone else gets charged with some kind of accomplice crime, or no crime at all. Certainly not some kind of preemptive immunity.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:34
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Read the ME report rather than your own view of a video that shows only a portion of the event.

Quote:

vindication15 wrote:
When you die Monroe, I'm sure stupidity will be a contributing factor to your death but not a cause of it. Better learn the difference today. Good job, by the way, of me totally falsifying your claim of police only using a chokehold to bring him down and not acknowledging it. Were you on the grand jury?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:32
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Monroe wrote:
Wrong. The ME stated that his obesity and his asthma were contributing factors to his death. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.


Contributing factors, but not the primary causes of death. That is like if some guy walked up to an old man, pull out a knife and stabbed him and medical examiner notes "the advanced age of the deceased was a contributory factor to morbidity." That doesn't in any way imply that the primary cause of death wasn't that the poor guy was stabbed. Similarly, all factors here seem to demonstrate that the primary cause of death was an illegal choke hold.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:27
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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When you die Monroe, I'm sure stupidity will be a contributing factor to your death but not a cause of it. Better learn the difference today. Good job, by the way, of me totally falsifying your claim of police only using a chokehold to bring him down and not acknowledging it. Were you on the grand jury?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:25
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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JCMan8 wrote:
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nyrgravey9 wrote:
Still, the cop in the Eric Garner case should have been indicted. That one's a little f*cked up. Gotta scratch the head at this one.


Agreed, there's a video and it's pretty bad for the officers. Won't see me defending this one.

The fact remains that looting and rioting should not be tolerated under any circumstances, and that most of the Mike Brown supporters wouldn't care about that violent thug if he wasn't black. Further, while police treatment has been a problem for the black community, black on black crime is far far worse for their community, yet you don't see anyone protesting that.

However, I'd love to know why the Garner cop wasn't indicted with this clear video evidence. With Brown it was because all the forensic evidence supported Officer Wilson. Given the video here, what's the reason for Garner?


The more I consider this the more surprised I am. I get the impression that the basis was that Garner was resisting arrest. But there wasn't much to suggest he was actually assaulting the officers, just not being cooperative, which is what the video seems to support as well. What really would be expected to do the officer in, though, was the illegal choke hold. Anyone that spent more time reading the info on this care to comment?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:23
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Wrong. The ME stated that his obesity and his asthma were contributing factors to his death. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Edited to add-his high blood pressure was also a contributing factor.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/ ... l-Examiner-269396151.html

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:23
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Some other facts:

Police did not warn Eric Garner that they were about to take it to another level - they just went from trying to grab his hand to chokehold in less than 5 seconds. A "Please do not resist arrest or you will be taken down forcefully" would have been nice.

Also, Monroe, as usual, is wrong. Garner is clearly on the ground from :48-:51 and STILL in a chokehold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo

Hands behind his back already for another few seconds after :51 yet police hands on his head pushing his head down while he says "I can't breathe."

It's hard to watch the video. Why mention obesity Monroe? The medical examiner, who knows far more medically than you do and probably ever will, says death was not due to his asthma. People should now die because they are obese?

Monroe, at the end of the day, it must be hard to be yourself because although ignorance is bliss, it must also be painful to speak out of your ass.





Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:20
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Monroe wrote:
Agreed-my only objection was listing 'homicide' originally, because that doesn't necessarily point to culpability of the police as far as the legality of their actions.

You'd think after being arrested 30X Garner would have decided not to resist, rather than say 'This ends here' when he refuses the legal request of the officers and resists arrest.


Right, not saying that this means "guilty" but I am saying that the 4 bullet points listed below, when taken together, create a much more compelling case for an indictment than with MB/DW. I expected the results before George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson. On this one if I had to guess I would have suspected that they would at least get past the indictment stage.




Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:15
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[quote]
nyrgravey9 wrote:
Still, the cop in the Eric Garner case should have been indicted. That one's a little f*cked up. Gotta scratch the head at this one.[/quote]

Agreed, there's a video and it's pretty bad for the officers. Won't see me defending this one.

The fact remains that looting and rioting should not be tolerated under any circumstances, and that most of the Mike Brown supporters wouldn't care about that violent thug if he wasn't black. Further, while police treatment has been a problem for the black community, black on black crime is far far worse for their community, yet you don't see anyone protesting that.

However, I'd love to know why the Garner cop wasn't indicted with this clear video evidence. With Brown it was because all the forensic evidence supported Officer Wilson. Given the video here, what's the reason for Garner?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:02
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Agreed-my only objection was listing 'homicide' originally, because that doesn't necessarily point to culpability of the police as far as the legality of their actions.

You'd think after being arrested 30X Garner would have decided not to resist, rather than say 'This ends here' when he refuses the legal request of the officers and resists arrest.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 21:00
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Monroe wrote:
A guy with a Glock kicks in your front door, assaults your kid, and has a gun to your wife's head. You pull out your legal gun and get off a great kill shot to his head.

You've committed homicide.

It just means the killing of one human being by another.


Correct. The homicide in your scenario above is justifiable as a matter of law, as discussed in my original post. Again, the significance in this instance is that the primary cause of death is the actions of the officers. But again, based on the evidence here, it is much harder to claim that officers were doing this because they were being assaulted. What it eliminates is the line of argument that he was unhealthy and that is what really killed him.

Compare for example something like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/nyr ... is-ruled-an-accident.html or http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/o ... us-crash-case-over/nhjML/

So if the medical examiner came to the conclusion that he was unhealthy and that was ultimately what killed him via an accidental death ruling, that would make pursuing charges against the officers much more difficult.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:53
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Still, the cop in the Eric Garner case should have been indicted. That one's a little f*cked up. Gotta scratch the head at this one.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:50
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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A guy with a Glock kicks in your front door, assaults your kid, and has a gun to your wife's head. You pull out your legal gun and get off a great kill shot to his head.

You've committed homicide.

It just means the killing of one human being by another.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:44
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Monroe wrote:
You don't understand the meaning of the word 'homicide'. Every killing of another human being is considered one, regardless of the legality.


Not exactly. There is also "accidental death" as another possible outcome in a circumstance like this. Obviously, the medical examiner's ruling isn't determinative with respect to legal liability (some homicides are justifiable under the law), but remember that the standard for a grand jury indictment is significantly lower. So the ruling would certainly be considered something that works against the officers in that case. What it says is "the officer's actions were the primary cause of his death, not the fact that he was morbidly obese and already unhealthy." Now, I haven't looked at the background enough to say that the grand jury's decision didn't make sense, but I will say that this is a much closer case than the DW/MB case.

But regardless, rioting like criminals should be immediately put down with overwhelming force by the police and national guard.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:38
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You don't understand the meaning of the word 'homicide'. Every killing of another human being is considered one, regardless of the legality.

The choke hold here was used to wrestle Garner to the ground when he was resisting his (30th or so) arrest. It was only used to get him to the ground. They didn't choke or compress his windpipe once he was down.

Garner was morbidly obese which led to his own demise as a result of his arresting arrest.

There was no intent by the police to kill him.

Hopefully the race baiters will take the implorations of Garner's family not to act like rioters in Ferguson did.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:27
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In related news, a grand jury didn't even indict in the Garner case today.

This is MUCH more surprising for the following reasons:
- The choke hold was prohibited by department policy
- The medical examiner ruled it a homicide
- Video exists showing that Garner was not attacking
- We know Garner communicated that he couldn't breathe

If even this didn't result in an indictment against a cop, I have to snicker at the simpletons wondering why DW wasn't indicted.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 20:19
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Old-Skool-JC wrote:
Thank god people like Zulu Gadaffi are taking a proactive approach to all this.
5k reward for Darren Wilson's location.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6184710


So, you think it wise to publicly support and encourage blatant criminal behavior? I'm honestly curious at what motivates you to engage in such stupid and risky behavior.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 17:00
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
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Pebble wrote:
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devilsadvocate wrote:
Ok, apparently I'm not being clear enough or you're being deliberately obtuse. Or perhaps I'm assuming too much of non-lawyers, though I note that other lay people are getting it. The job of the prosecution, in prosecuting a case, is to prove every element of the crime being alleged. That is it. If they have done that, then they win. If they fail in that, then they lose. The elements we're discussing were never in doubt or question. There is little point in testing forensics on the gun when everyone at the scene says "yeah, DW shot him." There is no point in testing the blood when everyone agrees that it was MB's. I have absolutely no idea what you think that would have accomplished. You say it is atypical, but this wasn't remotely a typical case. The only real question that was at play was whether DW was being attacked by MB. That is all. None of what you raised in any way addressed that.

I have provided quotes from law enforcement backing up the fact which is patently clear: The Ferguson Police Department acted improperly after the incident. They did not follow protocol.

I don’t know what lawyer you are, but I’m assuming real estate. Claiming to be a lawyer doesn't mean that you know every alley of law. My neighbor is a lawyer that works with the police and he was stating that almost nothing the Ferguson department did was proper procedure.


I'm not saying they followed procedure, I'm saying there wasn't harm from their omissions. By the way, I'm not a criminal defense lawyer or prosecutor and never claimed to be. But a lot of this stuff is exceptionally basic in nature.

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Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
He should not have been indicted because no one in their right mind believes that there was probable cause to believe that the alleged crime was committed and because a jury agreed. The prosecutor behaved in an appropriate manner given the circumstances - he presented all of the evidence to a grand jury and allowed them to make a determination. They decided against indictment, which is entirely predictable and even the MB family legal team expected it.

I’ll defer to lawyers on this… The National Bar Association, the nation's largest organization of African-American lawyers, sounded off on the prosecutor not doing his job.

When you think about a grand jury process, that process is not a jury trial. It is an audience for — similar to the preliminary hearing before the judge, is an audience for the prosecutor to present a case that says ‘we believe is worthy of indictment, here’s the evidence that proves that.’ And it’s a solid airtight case because the evidence is really controlled by the prosecutor. That’s not to say that the grand jury can’t ask for witnesses or ask questions, but typically the prosecutor controls the process. Typically a defendant doesn’t testify in that proceeding because the prosecutor’s main goal as the advocate for the state is to administer justice and to get a charge, otherwise he wouldn’t be bringing it before the grand jury.


Right, and herein lies the rub. This shouldn't have been brought before a grand jury at all. The only reason it happened was because of political pressure. The prosecutor couldn't ask for an indictment because they didn't believe one was called for. Usually, a grand jury isn't assembled in such a case. If you reread what I wrote and what they wrote, they're not actually contradictory. If the prosecutor honestly believed that DW was guilty then they yes, they could have taken a different approach.

Quote:
Quote:

devilsadvocate wrote:
I don't understand, why do you comment on these matters, particularly with such assurance, when you have NO IDEA what is going on? The prosecutor in this case was putting the question to the grand jury. The prosecutor, seeking to balance the interests of the state in avoiding a pointless trial and not pissing off the police, on one hand, and giving MB a fair and complete chance at justice, INTELLIGENTLY, decided to present all of the evidence. How does this make anything other that total sense?

FYI - as an ethical matter, prosecutors are not supposed to charge people with crimes they don't believe they committed. This is actually a pretty smart way around that issue for a prosecutor that, like most other lawyers, realized that it was bullsh!t. And it was BS, which is, of course, why neither this verdict nor the George Zimmerman verdict was a surprise to anyone in the legal community.

I have quotes from numerous lawyers in this thread discounting everything you are writing. To claim I have “NO IDEA” what is going is exceptionally ironic.


Feel free to repost those quotes. I'm not reading through 150+ posts to figure out what you're failing to understand. But you seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Quote:

JCMan8 wrote:
Quote:

dtjcview wrote:
New day, same circle jerks...tough to get any point across when the blood rushes to their other heads...but I'd say. Right or wrong, the Ferguson verdict was due process. Dragging DW into court on a charge of killing MB - simply isn't going to happen. Move on. Debate over.

What the debate should be - is what SHOULD happen in the next case like this.





We all know what should happen next time. Violent robber attacks the cop and tries to steal his gun = receives justice at the barrel of a gun.

The one positive that has resulted is there is more of a push for police body cameras, so the next Mike Brown will be caught on tape.

You’re right. The cops are always telling the truth and black kids just get justice from the barrel of the gun…

Before I could even get out of my car he jumped out, stared at me, and as I jumped out of my car and identified myself, as I approached him, he jumped head-first back into his car … he jumped out of the car. I saw something black in his hands.

That isn't Darren Wilson. That's Sean Groubert, a South Carolina police officer.

Trouble for him, though: The dashboard camera shows him shooting an unarmed man who is not jumping and did not have anything black in his hands. The officer is now facing 20 years in prison.

But, let’s remember, Brown was a scary demon super-negro acting like Hulk Hogan and treating the cop like a 5 year old. He’s not a racist at all.

Besides, he works at a police department that is completely on top of things.


Sure, some cops lie, body cameras help prevent that. But in the case of DW, you can't assume he was lying (why would you?), particularly when plenty of witnesses back up his account. That's why it couldn't even clear probably cause, let alone reasonable doubt.

So anyway, a thug is dead (yay), a good cop lost his job (boo), and everyone agrees on what should happen next time (body cameras mandated). But stupid people will keep being stupid, so here we are, having this conversation.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 16:56
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caj11 wrote:
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Old-Skool-JC wrote:
Are you seriously denying that it is not in the realm of possibility?


No, I am seriously denying that it IS in the realm of possibility. Check your grammar.

Why on earth would a police officer's family member be at the scene? To bring him donuts during his shift? What kind of nonsense is that?

Would you like to talk about the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny next?


I am starting to think, and I mean this with all sincerity, that Old Skool has been playing hooky from the A. Harry Moore school and we need to call someone soon. No one with sufficient mental faculties can be this asinine, can they?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 13:57
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I don't know. Maybe they were just walking by, or something.

Posted on: 2014/12/3 5:34
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Old-Skool-JC wrote:
Are you seriously denying that it is not in the realm of possibility?


No, I am seriously denying that it IS in the realm of possibility. Check your grammar.

Why on earth would a police officer's family member be at the scene? To bring him donuts during his shift? What kind of nonsense is that?

Would you like to talk about the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny next?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 4:50
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Of course it's possible. One of Wilson's bullets could've gone into the earth, and spurted up an oil gusher like in the Beverly Hillbillies too.

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Old-Skool-JC wrote:
Are you seriously denying that it is not in the realm of possibility?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 4:30
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Re: Jersey City prepares for decision on Ferguson indictment
Home away from home
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Are you seriously denying that it is not in the realm of possibility?

Posted on: 2014/12/3 4:20
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