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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
Quote:
Nice to know who the religious bigots are on here.


1+

I'm astounded by the vast, sweeping generalizations and outright ignorance/bigotry in this thread - and most JCList threads that deal with Islam. Awfully sad as I thought we were (for the most part) a pretty well-informed group.


I am astounded that people who want to save the facade of the building or at least not see the lions destroy are called a bigot.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 19:26
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

jerseymom wrote:
Quote:
Nice to know who the religious bigots are on here.


1+

I'm astounded by the vast, sweeping generalizations and outright ignorance/bigotry in this thread - and most JCList threads that deal with Islam. Awfully sad as I thought we were (for the most part) a pretty well-informed group.


+2

I thought the other thread about the parade from two weeks ago was a "one off", but I guess not. Truly incredible, and sad.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 18:09
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Bigotry #makeityours. No blacks, No Jews/Muslims No gays.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 18:01
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Mao wrote:
Borsip:

Here! Here!

Publius


Look at this History Channel watching genius.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 17:46
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:
Nice to know who the religious bigots are on here.


1+

I'm astounded by the vast, sweeping generalizations and outright ignorance/bigotry in this thread - and most JCList threads that deal with Islam. Awfully sad as I thought we were (for the most part) a pretty well-informed group.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 17:36
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Nice to know who the religious bigots are on here.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 15:29
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Borsip:

Here! Here!

Publius

Posted on: 2014/11/20 15:19
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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CdeCoincy wrote:
If a Jewish congegation bought a deconsecrated Catholic Church, would anyone object to their removing the Christian iconography?

Ok, I'll take this one. Being a Jew and all. Well, it depends. If the builiding is in a historic district where any homeowner is prohibited from as much as installing a modern window instead of a historic-commission-approved one, I would object to the religious congregation getting more allowances.

Next question?

Quote:
soulman wrote:
This building actually was a Church before it was purchased and converted to a Jewish Congregation

That works too. We can get rid of those preservation laws. I mean, it's kind of weird to claim that a building is a "historical heritage", while we eradicate the culture that created those buildings, and that culture did allow homeowners to change their property as they saw fit.

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Mao wrote:
Your reference to the crusades, inquisition, and witch burnings suggest, however, a tendentious and illiberal spirit. Each of these are important and complex events.

Indeed. Allow me to quote: "None the less the general desire of the clergy to check fanaticism is well illustrated by such a council as that of Paderborn (785). Although it enacts that sorcerers are to be reduced to serfdom and made over to the service of the Church, a decree was also passed in the following terms: "Whosoever, blinded by the devil and infected with pagan errors, holds another person for a witch that eats human flesh, and therefore burns her, eats her flesh, or gives it to others to eat, shall be punished with death". Altogether it may be said that in the first thirteen hundred years of the Christian era we find no trace of that fierce denunciation and persecution of supposed sorceresses which characterized the cruel witch hunts of a later age."
The belief in witches was considered a heresy by the Church up until the period we call "The Renaissance".

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papadage wrote:
No religion has primacy over any other, nor is it more worthy of more respect.

Orly? So, a religion that would demand a destruction of the whole people you respect just as much as the religion that prohibits murder? How about a religion that required human sacrifices on the industrial scale, do you respect that one just the same?

Posted on: 2014/11/20 14:51
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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LimpiarElSucio wrote:
Keeping the lions would be smart community relations as they are clearly appreciated by the larger community. They provide an aesthetic beauty to an otherwise bleak streetscape.


Speaking of bleak streetscapes - the City should adopt an ordinance that every new development should add something cultural or artistic to the streetscape. An ornate entryway, a simple sculpture out front... something better than the pre-fab brickwork and large glass windows we currently see.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 12:53
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Keeping the lions would be smart community relations as they are clearly appreciated by the larger community. They provide an aesthetic beauty to an otherwise bleak streetscape.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 12:29
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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1. The buliding is located in the Van Vorst Park Historic District.

2. The land was used for a church back in the 19th century, but the building that you see today was always a synagogue.

3. There was a restrictive covenant on the building which said if sold it could not be used for any religious purpose other than an Orthodox Synagogue. That was set aside by a court as illegal.

4. At one time, Jersey City's Historic Preservation ordinance exempted religious buildings, but that exemption no longer exists.

5. The mosque did previously start to remove the Lions and was told that it had to stop because the building was protected.

6. The mosque has, for some time, wanted to remove the lions. I do not know the exact reason behind the doctrine but I believe it relates to such portrayals being considered idolatrous.

7. I talked with the Historic Preservation Office about this a long time ago, and was told that, if they were going to receive an exemption, they would have to make it up in another way such as creating signage and other exhibits highlighting the history of the building and the congregation. Eventually the congregation dropped or mothballed the issue. I guess it's back.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 2:02
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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It is not the issue of having the lions removed, they were being destroyed, the reason the work was stopped before.

Posted on: 2014/11/20 1:04
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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...except that Spain had been Catholic for five hundred years when the Muslims invaded in the 8th century. The Reqconquista started then and Christians never gave up...

I doubt the Baptists today would hack the Virgin Mary apart. Interesting. the Pentecostals who took over All Saints Church on Pacific left everything marvelously intact. Apparently, there was a debate and the image party won.




Posted on: 2014/11/19 23:29
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Yeah, I was thinking of the Mezquita in Cordoba, Spain as well. That's amazing what the inquisition did... Anyway here I am not sure people are still on track here on the lions. It seems to me that the issue is whether the lions are religious artifacts (and therefore could be removed by people of different faith/no faith) or whether these are historical artifacts. If the latter, the current/new owners should not be able to touch these in historical districts except if degraded beyond repairs.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 23:29
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Mao wrote:
...
The Iconoclasts, whether of the 7th century Byzantine Christian Stripe, or of the Islamic stripe, or of the Protetant reformation type reserve a special fury for the destruction of Catholic and Orthodox churches and making them over without images.

...


Of course it went the other way in places like the south of Spain - where Catholics erected images and idols within mosques...

Posted on: 2014/11/19 23:18
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam

It's pretty easy to understand why the mosque wants them removed - not much different to the notion of "idolatry" in most Protestant churches. If a Catholic church was converted to, say, a Baptist church, the Baptists would take down any statues of the virgin Mary.

I'm sure the new owners would be happy to hand the lions over to anyone that was willing to spend money on their preservation.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 23:12
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Dear Old School:

The building was never a Baptist Church was it?

Also, Islam targeted Christian churches with particular ferocity. There was a sort of cult aimed toward the take over of Hagia Sophia. Recently Isis has promised to take over St. Peter's basilica. The take overs historically have been dramatic and violent affairs.

Christians in the Mediterranean did take over pagan temples but when they were disused. In northern Europe the monk missionaries were more dramatic, e.g.Boniface cutting down an oak to show the power of Christ against the Druid god. In Mexico, the conquistadors destroyed the Temploy Major where the human sacrifices to the gods Huiztilopochtli and Tlaloc took place. That was aggressive- but what was taking place on those altars was horrific.

The Iconoclasts, whether of the 7th century Byzantine Christian Stripe, or of the Islamic stripe, or of the Protetant reformation type reserve a special fury for the destruction of Catholic and Orthodox churches and making them over without images.

It is better to discuss then to resort to name calling.Or maybe not.

Publius

Posted on: 2014/11/19 23:10
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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lol, oh, well thanks for the well spoken bit at least.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:59
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Wow.
I think you'll find that sacred architecture has a pretty strong history of adoption of other sacred buildings and locale, it is not limited to Islam and absolutely characteristic of the spread of the early church throughout Europe.
I would not expect a lawyer to display such total ignorance, particularly one involving religion. It certainly has undertones of bias considering he/she works on immigration cases.

Also, I have confirmed with members of my immediate family that the site was Jersey City's first Baptist church up until 1920.


Quote:

immigrationlawyer wrote:
There is a very long history of mosque building on former churches, synagogues and other non-Islamic religious sites, especially in "conquered" lands. This will probably be deemed incendiary by a few people, but just pointing out historical facts.

I don't know the history of how the synagogue was acquired by the mosque, but I would find it very troubling if there truly was deception involved.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:48
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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A well spoken bigot is still a bigot.

No religion has primacy over any other, nor is it more worthy of more respect. Your appeals are thin cover for people here expressing bigotry over a mosque even being founded in Jersey City.

As I said, I care if the property is a historic landmark, but if not, it is theirs to do with as they wish. Every major religion had committed atrocities, so I find whining about a single mosque to be empty bias.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:38
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Dear JCISHOME:

I suppose it is over the top.

But the destruction of images is a hallmark of jihad from the start. The artist loss alone around the Mediterranean basin, through the Iberian peninsula, and then in the other direction through India, to Indonesia cannot be overstated. Iconoclasm is violent- violence against images and usually against those who create or venerate images.

The congregation at that synagogue has been here now for almost 20 years. I don't ever recall it doing anything to protest the current Islamic excesses- whether here or there.

Even a calculating awareness of fostering good local relations would have had the mosque seek to remove the lions in a manner that preserves them rather than destroys them.

Yours,

Publius


Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:23
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Dear JCISHOME:

I suppose it is over the top.

But the destruction of images is a hallmark of jihad from the start. The artist loss alone around the Mediterranean basin, through the Iberian peninsula, and then in the other direction through India, to Indonesia cannot be overstated. Iconoclasm is violent- violence against images and usually against those who create or venerate images.

The congregation at that synagogue has been here now for almost 20 years. I don't ever recall it doing anything to protest the current Islamic excesses- whether here or there.

Even a calculating awareness of fostering good local relations would have had the mosque seek to remove the lions in a manner that preserves them rather than destroys them.

Yours,

Publius


Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:23
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Dear Papadage:

What is a rat bigot?

Your reference to the crusades, inquisition, and witch burnings suggest, however, a tendentious and illiberal spirit. Each of these are important and complex events. Perhaps the dominant consensus (and at the very least a respectable scholarly thesis) on the crusades is that they represent the re-assertion of Christian culture after being on retreat for 400 years. Moreover, the Crusades focused on Jerusalem and its environs (I don't think the Frankish state ever got much larger than say from Jerusalem to Antioch).

The Inquisition and witch burning are part of the history of Christianity, East and West, and continuing even in some more intense forms in Protestantism. The present a fair apologist for the Church with a challenge, indeed. The fact that large gnostic movements were challenging the Church's hegemony does not excuse its excesses. Politics, of course, also figured in- the most problematic of all the inquisitions being the Spanish which was a department of the Spanish state. Indeed, the Papacy was often a force for the ratcheting down of these processes around Europe. The canon law of the church making efforts to ban for example trial by ordeal as it forged the concept of "due process."

However, the victims of the crusades and witch burning over seven hundred years and over the entire Western Hemisphere does not exceed $10,000 deaths. In comparison, the cvictims of Marxist Lennism or National Socialism are staggering beyond belief. The greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one sovereign against the government of another is 26.3 million Chinese during the regime of Mao Tse Tung between the years of 1949 and May 1965. The Walker Report published by the U.S. Senate Committee of the Judiciary in July 1971 placed the parameters of the total death toll in China since 1949 between 32 and 61.7 million people. An estimate of 63.7 million was published by Figaro magazine on November 5, 1978.

In the U.S.S.R. the Nobel Prize winner, Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimates the loss of life from state repression and terrorism from October 1917 to December 1959 under Lenin and Stalin and Khrushchev at 66.7 million.

Finally, in Cambodia "as a percentage of a nation's total population, the worst genocide appears to be that in Cambodia, formerly Kampuchea. According to the Khmer Rouge foreign minister, more than one third of the eight million Khmer were killed between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. One third of the entire country was put to death under the rule of Pol Pot, the founder of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. During that time towns, money and property were abolished. Economic execution by bayonet and club was introduced for such offenses as falling asleep during the day, asking too many questions, playing non-communist music, being old and feeble, being the offspring of an undesirable, or being too well educated. In fact, deaths in the Tuol Sleng interrogation center in Phnom Penh, which is the capitol of Kampuchea, reached 582 in a day."

Comparisons are odious, but I just don't think that throwing the crusades, the inquisition, and witchburning at anyone sympathetic to Christianity is fair.

Yours,

Publius

Posted on: 2014/11/19 22:01
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Dear Cat Dog:

Good question. And I don't really know the answer. As Christianity dies in our culture, is it better to have the ruins around to remind people? Like sort of the pieces of ancient Roman and Greek temples around the Mediterranean. I suppose so. On the other hand, it seems so sacrilegious to me. These are sanctuaries built to the glory of God from the poverty of our forefathers.

In France during the Third Republic, the anti clerical state was seizing Churches again and was putting them to secularize use. Proust wrote an impassioned article in Le Figaro in 1904. Proust likens derelict churches to hollow sea shells on the coast where we can barely hear the music that was once performed:

Ce qui importe, c?est qu?elle reste vivante et que du jour
au lendemain la France ne soit pas transform?e en une
gr?ve dess?ch?e ou de g?antes coquillages cisel?s
sembleraient comme ?chou?es, vid?s de la vie qui les
habita, et n?apportant plus ? l?oreille qui se pencherait
sur eux la vague rumeur d?autrefois, simples pi?ces de
mus?e, mus?es glac?s elles-memes.5

Once resurrected from the deep and lifted into the light of
day, Debussy?s cathedral teems with organ, chant, and
5 Giuseppe Girimonti Greco, Quaderni Proustiani, (2012), op. cit. p. 49. The almost identical passage can also be found in Marcel Proust, Pastiches et M?langes (Paris, Gallimard, 1919,
1947), p. 181. Peter Houle ? A musical analogue www.LaRecherche.it

For Proust the liturgy is one with church
architecture. A church is alive only when the liturgy can be
performed:

Quand le sacrifice de la chair et du sang du Christ ne
sera plus c?l?br? dans les ?glises, il n?y aura plus de vie
en elles. La liturgie catholique ne fait qu?un avec
l?architecture et la sculpture de nos cath?drales, car les
unes commes les autres derivent d?un m?me
symbolisme.

In his later ?En M?moires des Eglises Assassin?es? Proust
eloquently projects the same sense of mystery and awe we
find in Debussy:

Les sculptures et les vitraux reprennent leurs sens, une
odeur myst?rieuse flotte de nouveau dans le temple, un
drame sacr? s?y joue, la cath?drale se remet ? chanter.

So I don't know, churches and synagogues as bars and restaurants or nightclubs. I just don't know but it breaks my heart.

Publius

Posted on: 2014/11/19 21:41
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

immigrationlawyer wrote:
There is a very long history of mosque building on former churches, synagogues and other non-Islamic religious sites, especially in "conquered" lands. This will probably be deemed incendiary by a few people, but just pointing out historical facts.

I don't know the history of how the synagogue was acquired by the mosque, but I would find it very troubling if there truly was deception involved.


As a lawyer, you should know these types of deed restrictions are illegal anyway. Also, referring to historic actions and not mentioning things like the Crusades, witch burnings and the Inquisition just show an added lack of perspective and fairness.

The only issue I have with this is if this is an actual historic site. The fact that the religion of the new occupants is Islam is only an issue for rat bigots.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 20:45
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
When St. Boniface Church was sold, the stain glass was taken out and placed in Holy Name Catholic Cemetery. I am bother by the destruction of the facade. Those items could be carefully removed instead of being destroyed and given to a Jewish organization as an alternative.
Isn't there new stained glass up though? Or going up? Or I think the old stained glass is being repaired and replaced. I haven't walked by that way in a while so I'm not sure if it's up yet.

edit: never mind, I think I see what you mean:
http://jclandmarks.org/2011preservationInitiativeaward-rcan.shtml

So what's the problem here? The original stained glass was removed and preserved at another church, they weren't destroyed.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 19:08
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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There is a very long history of mosque building on former churches, synagogues and other non-Islamic religious sites, especially in "conquered" lands. This will probably be deemed incendiary by a few people, but just pointing out historical facts.

I don't know the history of how the synagogue was acquired by the mosque, but I would find it very troubling if there truly was deception involved.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 17:54
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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When St. Boniface Church was sold, the stain glass was taken out and placed in Holy Name Catholic Cemetery. I am bother by the destruction of the facade. Those items could be carefully removed instead of being destroyed and given to a Jewish organization as an alternative.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 17:48
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Quote:

Mao wrote:
I don't believe that it was ever a church. I believe that Yvonne is correct. It was a struggling synagogue, sold with deed restrictions that it not be used for religious purposes (presumably other than the Jewish religion). Briefly, there was a flurry that it was to be an event site/banquet hall. I remember I walked in distressed as everything was being dismantled and I met a guy who looked like Tennessee Williams' brother. I said- "Ok if I look?" He said sure go ahead and added "I loath religious buildings." I said: "What are you going to do with it?" He coughed out "banquet hall."

Two weeks later there were Muslims on ladders hacking at the lions of Judah. A brouhaha ensued and an order was obtained to stop them.

I was surprised, actually. I was told that Fr. Schiller, priest was involved in the drafting of the ordinances in thr early 1980s which expressly exempt Churches from the restrictions. Pere Schiller is preternaturally prescient. As a partner in Connell Foley and a political insider (how tight he is with McGreevy, I would not want to know but McGreevey did launch his gubernatorial campaign with Schiller at his side on the steps of St. Patrick's Church) Schiller gets things done. So Schiller today is actually personally involved in the sacrilegious destruction and conversion of these temples into condos. He was involved with the sale of All Saints School (soon to be All Saints Condo) to an Israeli developer. Not sure if he had any role in the sale of St. Boniface now cheap condos. As we speak, St. Bridgets is being sold.

However, Schiller sens cum ecclesiam (thinks with the Church) here as the contemporary church which is autodemolishing itself now at breakneck speed under Francis resists any restrictions by the government. It went all the way up to the US Supreme Court where when the church wanted to renovate a 400 year old church in Texas. I think the church won on First Amendment grounds (free exercise). However, if a parish actively seeks landmark status, then it is protected, .e.g St. Anthony of Padua on Monmouth Street.

So I have to say that I suspect there is little legal recourse for these lions. I think that we should seek to have them removed reverently and preserved elsewhere. Also, public opinion should be brought to bear on the congregation, though it is probably fruitless. Somehow, coming the day after the massacre in the Israeli synagogue and with all of the rising Islamic violence around the world, this destruction in the heart of our city is especially troubling.


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Rogate pacem Hierusalem sit bene his qui diligunt te
So would you prefer the churches be torn down and replaced with new condos, instead of having condos be put into the existing building so the building can be preserved? Or do you mean that you would prefer to see nothing done with them at all? Because I don't think having a bunch of abandoned churches sitting around falling apart is very practical.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 17:37
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Re: Lions of Judah being removed from church/synagogue/mosque on Grove?
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Nobody loves historic structures more than me, but linking the murders in Israel to some building renovations in Jersey City is a bit over the top. As usual around here, a little perpective is in order.

Posted on: 2014/11/19 17:36
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