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Re: Property values in the Heights (post Sandy)
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I know you probably weren't alive in the 1980s and only see the city through the diamond encrusted monocle of the mid-2000s. But it was not a prime location in 1985. It wasn't really a prime location in 1995. Manhattan was a shit-hole dump for more years than it wasn't over the last half century. There were many efforts and many programs and also shifts in demographics that lead to the revitalization of urban areas, not just New York City, but smaller places like Baltimore or Philadelphia. Quote:
No the Toll Brothers want to build in the PAD because 15 years ago people started inhabiting abandoned warehouses because it was cheap and they built up a place that became desirable. Again, there were multiple reasons for the increase in interest in Jersey City, just like there were multiple reasons why urban centers across the country began to rebound by the 1990s. But when PAD -- and its predecessor WALDO -- was established, there were no sure signs of Jersey City's rebirth. City planners were looking for ways to artificially induce demand for decrepit spaces. Those programs were made to mimic those of SoHo, Chelsea, Dumbo. The fact that the rest of Jersey City grew up faster than anticipated and generated demand for new development in the PAD was a pleasant surprise for most planners at the time the designations were created. Development plans actually hummed along quite smoothly for the Toll Brothers, and the only reason the project has since been delayed was a slowdown in demand for condominiums. I'm not sure if you follow the news, but a few years back there was this national financial crisis and and oversupply of homes for purchase which slowed the development of residential projects. Quote:
Newport was entirely vacant land and abandoned rail yards when the Lefraks acquired the property. There was no way to hope a creative class would move into the neighborhood because there was no abandoned buildings or under used housing stock. It was just nothing. Its probably worth considering that the Lefraks were in fact beneficiaries of special programs. They were one of the first recipients of tax abatements designed to encourage redevelopment. NJTransit invested in a light rail to service the neighborhood, and the Port Authority invested in renovating the Pavonia-Newport PATH station, which at the time only had trains stop by request. So no, they didn't rely on artists, but they did rely on incentive programs. So I guess in a way you could say Newport developed because of history -- the industrial history that left a huge are of land vacant and easily developed. Quote:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't this stupid. Quote:
I never said European tourism wasn't a huge part of the New York City economy. But part of the draw of New York for tourists is a vibrant and exciting city. Bankers and lawyers might generate lots of financial wealth, but they aren't the kind of people who attract tourists. Do tourists in Paris head to the corporate business center at La Defense or do they flock to the bohemian neighborhoods that historically appealed to painters, writers, academics, sculptures? Hint: La Defense is not a top tourist attraction. SoHo has since become a major tourist draw with international luxury brands, but before the artists moved in (and were subsequently pushed out) you were more likely to buy heroin than fashion. Quote:
At last, some common ground.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 20:03
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Re: Property values in the Heights (post Sandy)
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gee folks, i remember when only trashy folk lived in chelsea, meatpacking and soho, tribeca. betcha those trashy people who bought aren't laughing now.
no one is saying that the heights is/will or even wants to be the next hoboken or dtjc..but i definitely see improvement. personally, i wonder about union city. i never realized how convenient and ok it was when i had to take those gypsy vans to port authority
Posted on: 2012/11/28 19:23
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More so than artists Gay people, especially men, probably do more to lift property values than anyone else. Most don't have children so couldn't care less about school systems. Most put incredible effort into bringing up the aesthetic qualities of any given area. Many are well off and have disposable income so small businesses and restaurants can flourish. And, of course, some of those same gay people are artists or art collectors as well.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 19:21
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Well said! We have friends who moved from quite a nice place in Hoboken to Ogden Ave, where they could have a SPECTACULAR place! That someone has different priorities for their lifestyle doesn't make them stupid. When we left Manhattan, all other things being equal (and they weren't), quite a high plus for JC was how easy it was to head out for the weekend to somewhere in the mountains, as opposed to Park Slope where you could add an hour just to get on the road. For many people that wouldn't even be on the scope.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 19:11
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vindication dude--You must be a troll. I've never read such chip on your shoulder stubborn, belligerant nonsense. I don't want a mansion for one person in Camden, the murder capital of the country with a 3 hour commute to work. Why don't you move there?
Posted on: 2012/11/28 19:05
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Home away from home
Joined:
2012/1/11 18:21 Last Login : 2019/12/26 15:30 From GV Bayside Park
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HA! I love these threads, you don't live downtown so your a piece of $hit HA!
Posted on: 2012/11/28 19:04
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Re: Property values in the Heights (post Sandy)
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So the luxury brands moved to soho not because it's in a prime location but because artists were there and wherever artists are, magical gold appears? The toll brothers want to build in the PAD cause it was once a "historic place of art and culture" or they want it cause it's a few blocks to the PATH? Give me a break, the reason why dev is stalled is because of ridic proposals to attract a certain "creative class." Newport, one of the wealthiest parts of jc needed no special "artist appeal programs" why does the PAD? Just because of history? Do pencil manufacturers get a discount in Dixon mills? Since the new Hamilton park condos were once a hospital, do healthcare professionals get a discount or affordable units? Ian, you might think those who shop in soho are euro trash but their shopping is what makes the world turn, not some mural on Columbus street. And to others, duh you get more space in the heights or bl than manhattan. You also could probably get a mansion in Camden for the price you paid in the heights or bl. You should move to Camden.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 18:56
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No one but the very richest of the rich could afford to live in Manhattan the way I live in Jersey City. If you don't understand that, then really there is no point in discussing further. Yes, I can afford a 2 bedroom something or other in Manhattan. I cannot afford a 5-bedroom, 14-room house, with driveway and garage, and workshop IN Manhattan. But that is what is important to me, and where I want my housing dollars to go. Not to being 5 blocks from the office or nice restaurants. Get it?
Posted on: 2012/11/28 18:34
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Is that directed at me? If it is, I wasn't addressing your sensible comment, but the belligerently, and apparently hopelessly, clueless Vindication15 who has himself stuck in a recursive loop where rich people move to poor neighborhoods for no apparent reason. Especially when responding to a specific poster, if you quote or at least address the person you're addressing, it would be clearer.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 18:03
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i'll take my home near riverview fisk park over my old home by hamilton park. i get triple the space (2.5 bedroom) plus shared yard, parking, storage, and for only about $200 more than i was paying for a small one room apartment on erie.
i also find that my utilities are much cheaper up here even though the space is much bigger and the public transportation requires less walking to path stations and merely waiting across the street or on the corner for the bus to port authority. WIN.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 18:00
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Re: Property values in the Heights (post Sandy)
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Just can't stay away
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"Not every artist views him or herself as an anthropologist, but every artist needs cheap space-and plenty of it. So artists move to poor areas. And those areas begin to change.
According to Ley, when artists move to poor inner city neighborhoods property prices inflate six to tenfold within a decade. Janet L. Abu-Lughod gives a telling anecdote about artist gentrification in her book "From Urban Village to East Village: The Battle for New York's Lower East Side." Abu-Lughod reports that in 1978, New York's Mayor Koch was so impressed with the way in which artists gentrified Soho that he proposed the same for the South Bronx. Somehow, the proposal didn't take. " I've lived here over a decade and it's not my fantasy of the perfect place at all BUT....the Riverview Park area where I live is relatively safe, pretty in some spots (minus one gazebo since Storm Sandy), VERY affordable, fairly convenient to NYC and VERY convenient to Hoboken. I walk there every single day and if I owned a bike I'd be there in about 5 minutes flat. It's a compromise. I wanted a house with a backyard and a front porch in an urban area, not a studio in Manhattan. It's a viable alternative in that way. I'm not holding my breath for a Starbucks but there will come a tipping point time in the future. I'll probably be 80 years old but I have no doubt that it will come.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 17:48
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"because I wanted my housing dollars to go further" means that you cannot afford to live in Manhattan.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 17:41
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The creation of affordable housing for the creative class is a conscious policy decision to attract people of that class for a specific, intended purpose of revitalizing certain districts. Its not a matter of their contribution to society, but rather intended as a cause and effect. Cause: low cost housing for the creative class. Effect: increased desirability of a previously undesirable area to drive redevelopment. There have been different systems and programs, but there is a historic element to it. SoHo wasn't always the glitzy Disneyland of luxury brand shops catering to Euro trash. Thirty years ago it was a shit show trash heap no one wanted, but by changing certain building codes to allow artists to reside in commercial buildings helped foster an environment that increased property values and lead to development of the area. Jersey City's powerhouse district was an attempt to replicate the success of SoHo and other examples of this kind of redevelopment. There are probably some good arguments that it was highly successful given the present demand to build on the properties -- 110 and 111 First Street, the Toll Brothers building -- and a failure in that its taken this long to get that kind of large scale development attracted to the neighborhood. In part legacy rules -- like SoHo buildings that technical require an "artist in residence" -- are meant to protect the people who have in fact contributed to the revitalization of the neighborhood but who are then being priced out by their own success. Such a system of protecting these people is similar to protectionist policies that artificially bolster property values like density limits and historic preservation.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 17:39
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I definitely can afford to live in Manhattan, but have chosen not to, and not because I want to eat with my feet. Most of my colleagues (who earn what I do) live in Manhattan--we can afford to, and they do. I don't even live in DTJC or Hoboken, and it goes without saying I could afford to. I live in B-L because I wanted my housing dollars to go further toward what I find important (without paying the obscene premium)---space, land, original architecture, independence. And yes, I have to admit I like the adventure of being a pioneer. Maybe I am unique in this regard, but I don't think so. Not everyone who can afford to wants to dump thousands into the real estate hole. I would rather take another trip to the Caribbean. Or buy a second home there.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 17:38
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So rich people moved to those areas because they said, "omg artists! Let's move there!" give me a break. The obsession some jc people have with artists is bordering on ridiculous. Professionals move to an area because of convenience to work, shopping, recreation. And by recreation, I don't mean going to an "art gallery." I mean entertainment centers, clubs, broadway, etc. The obsession I can somewhat tolerate but there are actually proposals out there to grant affordable housing units specifically to artists as if their contribution to society or jc counts more than physicians, nurses, lawyers, or even garbage collectors. Please give me a break. Hero - some people who can afford manhattan live in the heights. I also saw a YouTube video of a guy who had hands but was eating with his feet...same category yes? I live in Paulus hook cause I'm too poor to afford manhattan. The majority of people in my building and the rest of jc are the same way. Don't live in denial.... You're too poor to afford manhattan or dtjc or Newport or Hoboken or a nice suburb so you live in the heights. It feels good to be truthful...say it with me.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 17:09
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ianmac: i refuse to be petty. i find it ridiculous to say that the only reason that people don't live in the Heights is because they can not afford Manhattan or some other area.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 16:39
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Holy fucking shit. Its not narrow minded to say that the Heights is less desirable than downtown Jersey City is less desirable than Manhattan. It is a reflection of the price per square foot. The Heights derives its value from its proximity to Manhattan just as downtown Jersey City and Hoboken and Brooklyn derive their value from their proximity to Manhattan. Its not a put down to say the Heights is a less desirable place when its reflected in rents and sale prices. This is a put down: you are a tottering tickle-brained canker-blossom, a goatish folly-fallen harpy, and a wayward rough-hewn foot-licker. Do you see the difference between a "put down" and a logical, fact based analysis of real estate values?
Posted on: 2012/11/28 16:33
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well, one can make the argument that the only reason people live in brooklyn, hoboken or downtown jersey city is because trhey can't afford manhattan..wasn't that the case with williamsburg, long island city, hoboken, jersey city.. it's incredible how narrow-minded people can be and how far they go to put down others.
and btw i knowa few people who CAN afford manhattan but chose to live in the Heights. there may be work, ethnic and other reasons besides financial as to why peolple live up there
Posted on: 2012/11/28 16:01
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The only reason people end up in the heights from Manhattan, Brooklyn, Hoboken or downtown Jersey City is because they are priced out of those other places. Prices being equal they wouldn't be there, but prices aren't equal, because the heights is a less desirable place to live. Quote:
You are so close to being right, and then this... I guess you'll have to overlook SoHo and Chelsea. And Williamsburg. And Dumbo.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 14:59
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Just can't stay away
Joined:
2012/3/13 0:42 Last Login : 2013/9/9 18:52 From Bayside Park
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Every year people discover JC. I discovered it in 97 and called dtjc home until 2008 then I moved on, and discovered more of it, some peeps like condo's, some don't.
I did not stay downtown because I wanted a garage, a yard, and a ez commute to the city within the budget of 350K. Bergen Lafayette, Greenville, Journal Square, & the Heights have the most people living in these areas with also the most home ownership not renters which is opposite of downtown 36k people with only 20% of them home owners. People will continue to discover JC and most will start downtown and then either move out of JC or move to another location of JC. Downtown is a very transitional place where the average renter stays for four years then leaves for another area or even city. Bottom Line is yes, property values will increase in the Heights because not everyone wants to buy a condo in a flood zone and pay gross fees forever on top of the huge tax increase that's coming in 2013. Also if Fulop wins, the whole city wins, not just downtown.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 14:15
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Re: Property values in the Heights (post Sandy)
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I am clueless because I don't understand what you're saying. I was talking about heights property value. It will go up post sandy. Is that better?! Please do yourself a favor and get a life... It's really not that serious.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 4:33
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? Union City is also already serviced by 3 Light Rail stops -- Tonnelle, Bergenline, Port Imperial. And buses. ? It'd be insanely expensive to install, and would undoubtedly disrupt NJT service. ? NJ Transit is not designed as a local commuter line. It's regional. A better option is to improve bus service to and from JSQ during rush hour.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 3:42
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I rarely descend to name calling on this board, but Christ, you're f**king unbelievably clueless. Are you simply trolling? Maybe bigger will help: Why do you suppose the rich want to live in those areas? It's not because they don't have the money for better!!! They're rich!!!
Posted on: 2012/11/28 3:20
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I recently moved to the heights with my girlfriend and we absolutely love it! I think the heights has great potential. Although certain parts are better than others I see a lot of potential. I definitely think prices will increase. No matter what anyone says there will be people who want to purchase homes in this area and will not want to pay the prices of Hoboken & DTJC. This Drives prices up! They are going to move to the heights or JSQ. You cannot compare the heights to NYC. NYC is one of the best cities in the world! Of course it doesn't compare and probably never will. But the heights is not trying to be nyc but is close to it.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 3:03
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Oh, I agree about the affordability. Prior posts made it seem like people were moving to the heights for other reasons besides not being able to afford to live somewhere else. because you know, the heights offers something unique... as for the artists, I stand by what I said. why were the artists pioneers? They were in those areas before the rich came in and started to bring in business and development. Why not call homeless people pioneers? Thank the professionals themselves for moving into Hoboken, Newport, DTJC, not the artists...that makes no sense.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 2:40
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You really seem to have no concept of economics. There's something we call "money" and not everyone has unlimited amounts of it. People usually leave NYC, including me, not because they don't like it but because they can't afford it! And some people make the choice after that to buy a single family with a yard in the Heights rather than a 1 bedroom in Downtown or Hoboken for the same budget. Do you REALLY also not understand the cycle of the wealthy pouring into areas the impoverished artists pioneer in search of affordable space and make hip? SOHO, Alphabet City, TriBeCa, Williamsburg, DUMBO, Hoboken, DTJC. What planet are you from? I was attending SVA art school parties in Hoboken in 1982. I was working with a musician and model maker who had several years earlier went in with a couple of buddies and bought a loft building there for $40k. Certainly there were guys like you who mocked them throwing their money away!
Posted on: 2012/11/28 1:36
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They used to say that about Hoboken, too. Now, I'm not saying that the Heights will turn into Hoboken. Just that your argument doesn't work.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 1:13
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Very true. Why would anyone ever want to live in NYC when all the businesses, world class restaurants, hotels, clubs, museums, and broadway are in the heights! oh wait...none of that are in the heights... Yes artists are moving to the heights...rofl. Cause you know, artists are millionaires that will bring the wealth to your part of town. I kid, I kid, artists are great, just visit the empty, wordndown lots of the powerhouse arts district to see how artists revitalized that area.
Posted on: 2012/11/28 0:22
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trust me there are plenty of people moving from Manhattan, Brooklyn, Hoboken and downtown j,c to the heights
Posted on: 2012/11/28 0:07
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Here's why, an excerpt from another site, the poster lives in Manhattan: Quote: He: Dream House? A 900 Sqft apart ( Maybe 1200 if I'm Feeling wasteful ) less than 3 Minute bike ride from where I keep The sailboat. Walk to all Shopping, Stores, & work less than 1 mile from home. right now I live 3 Miles from work and The commute is harsh. People would rather live in the ass end of Brooklyn and pay 3x the price than "leave NYC".
Posted on: 2012/11/27 19:51
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