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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Home away from home
 
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I would not find it moral, but I do not believe it should be illegal. People should be able to do what they want on their private property, provided they are not infringing on other people or their property. Not offering a discount is not infringing on a person or their property. I'm always going to favor freedom, even if it's tasteless. People should be free to be bigots and others are free to not frequent their establisments. You can't legislate away bigotry. If anything, the promotion would signal that the parking garage owner was bigoted, and their business would suffer. Isn't this a good thing? Freedom opens up information and allows people to make more informed decisions.
Posted on: 2009/11/27 2:53
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Can't wait to hear Heights and DirtMcGirt answer that question.
Posted on: 2009/11/26 17:56
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Not too shy to talk
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Wow, way to completely ignore the point. Just because you're not "threatened" by JWs, it doesn't mean the practice is not discriminatory. And if you truly believe in private property rights, then you DO agree that a lot should be able to offer a special discount to whites. I know you think you somehow bypass this argument by saying it "appeals to a bygone era" (yes, because racism is dead in this country - you're right), but maybe this will make it a little easier to visualize in this modern, racism-free era: Let's say there happened to be a white nationalist rally one day in Journal Square (these kinds of rallies happen all the time, so it's not an "appeal to a bygone era"). And let's imagine this garage was offering special discounts to members of this white nationalist organization on that day. Would you think that's ok?
Posted on: 2009/11/26 14:44
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8379981.stm
for those of you thinking it's any different in your own country, think again. also worth noting: 161 million euros....JUST like that. but I guess any world wide organization enjoying absolute tax immunity would have a pretty big petty cash box too.....
Posted on: 2009/11/26 12:06
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Playing the race card does not move me and is an appeal to a bygone era. Do you think that any garage in JC could deny black people the same rate as whites without losing most of their business from non-black people - even without government intervention.
Also, the discount was not "against" anyone, including atheists. It was a discount for Jehovah's Witnesses, probably because the lot owner knew a bunch of them would be looking for parking when others wouldn't (i.e. JSQ on Saturday morning). Maybe I am less threatened by religious folks than some atheists but I treasure private property rights and the right to freely associate with those of one's choosing. I see my freely parking in a non-religious lot and everyone else who supports religious freedom doing so a better solution than employing the coercive power of the state to force bigots to stop losing my business. Quote:
Posted on: 2009/11/23 2:20
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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after re-reading your post robotjustin, i think i'm a bit confused on whether we are in agreement or not regarding the number of occurrences of sexual abuse by church faculty vs. public school teachers. I obviously posted my last post thinking that you were stating that public schools are the bigger problem because of the high occurrence, but now I'm not sure what your opinion is. if we were agreeing, sorry for the post. if we aren't, well, then we have more to talk about
Posted on: 2009/11/10 7:35
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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So that's 110,000k allegations over 50 years in one corner, versus 4.5 million actual cases per term of lower education. I'm actually quite surprised that you folks find it so hard to reckon that nearly every child spending 8 hours a day in a public school setting versus a small subset of children spending very limited time with a priest would result in exponentially higher figures of sexual abuse in favor of Public Schools, but that's apparently that's where bias gets you. there's a fundamental problem with your numbers. take the entire population of a town, then look at the total population of the children in that town, within the ages of grades K through 12. chances are, over 99% of them attend school. then, after you look at that number, take a look at how many of those children are going to church every week, and for how many hours they are actually exposed to church faculty. it's worth noting that most children who attend church show up on sunday, sit next to their parents, and an hour later, drive home with their parents. then consider that nearly every single child, if not in fact every single child in that town attends school 5 days a week for several hours a day, 8 months out of the year, including after school activities like sports and various other clubs, or even summer school. then re-adjust your numbers according to the actual amount of time, or real opportunities being presented to sexually harass/assault/molest a child, along with the number of school teachers in America vs. the number of priests. you are sure to get some real numbers then, my friend. i always looked at this in the most basic of ways: Company A has 100 employees, all of which live normal lives. Company B has 100 employees, all men, and all are sworn for all eternity to never have any sexual contact with a human being. i would expect more sexual "issues" surfacing in Company B.
Posted on: 2009/11/9 12:42
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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What are you even talking about? Selectively? There's no comparison between a business giving discounts and a business dumping waste onto other people's property. Nice try, but sorry - that's not gonna fly.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 17:21
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Home away from home
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Ha ha. He would but selectively. I rest my case.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 17:19
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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OK, let's try a few more real-world applications. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for the elderly. The price for everyone else was $8. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for students at the Hudson Community College. The price for everyone else was $8. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for the disabled. The price for everyone else was $8. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for expectant mothers. The price for everyone else was $8. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for juggalos attending Juggalo Fest at the Lowes Theatre. The price for everyone else was $8. The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for veterans on Veterans Day. The price for everyone else was $8. Do you object to each of the above instances? Why or why not? The fact is that the discount had nothing to do with religion in the specific, but with a group of consumers who happened to be a member of an affinity group, like florists, dog-catchers, or Jets fans. The intent was not religious discrimination, but to reward valuable and repeat customers, while at the same time attempting to compete for their dollars in a free market. This is actually an example of singling-out a religious group for persecution, by limiting their rights when other affinity or minority groups (the elderly, the disabled, etc.) are treated to special benefits. Businesses practice similar exclusionary tactics all the time. Shop Rite rewards "Price Plus" members with discounts. Many retail stores or service providers have sliding prices which are often tied to socio-economic status. Students and the elderly are given discounts on many products and services, as are members of various trade unions and social groups (Rotarians, AARP, AAA, etc.) i.e., on hotels or at conventions. I've been part of many events where various restaurants and bars rewarded event participants with heavily discounted or even free meals! Do you only draw the line at religious organizations, or do you decry all of these examples of discriminatory practices?
Posted on: 2009/11/7 17:03
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I would because they would be dumping waste into a someone else's property. Apples and oranges.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 16:10
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Public School vs. Catholic Priest Molestation Smackdown for those incapable of using google for anything other than reinforcing their own preconceived notions and prejudices:
From that infamous tool of the Catholic Magisterium, Wikipedia, on which many the heretic were broken: "The John Jay report indicated that some 11,000 allegations had been made against 4,392 priests in the USA. This number constituted approximately 4% of the 110,000 priests who had served during the period covered by the survey (1950-2002).[24] The report found that, over the 52-year period covered by the study, "the problem was indeed widespread and affected more than 95 percent of the dioceses and approximately 60 percent of religious communities."[15]" Horrible, I readily admit. And the numbers probably trend somewhat higher. Let's be liberal, and multiply them by 10, which would make 110,000. And from that other vile den of Papistry, the US Department of Education, a report by the unfortunately named Charol Shakestaff, which can be accessed here: http://www.ed.gov/rschstat/research/p ... sconductreview/index.html. This is from page 18: "To get a sense of the extent of the number of students who have been targets of educator sexual misconduct, I applied the percent of students who report experiencing educator sexual misconduct to the population of all K-12 students. Based on the assumption that the AAUW surveys accurately represent the experiences of all K-12 students, more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarten and 12th grade. " So that's 110,000k allegations over 50 years in one corner, versus 4.5 million actual cases per term of lower education. I'm actually quite surprised that you folks find it so hard to reckon that nearly every child spending 8 hours a day in a public school setting versus a small subset of children spending very limited time with a priest would result in exponentially higher figures of sexual abuse in favor of Public Schools, but that's apparently that's where bias gets you.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 16:07
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Home away from home
Joined:
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And you'd be the first to complain if a factory was dumping toxic waste into your well. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/040800-03.htm Since the 1930s, Portlanders had railed about the growing filth of the Willamette, where pulp and steel mills sent globs of sludge floating downriver and raw sewage left fish unable to breathe. Film shot in the 1960s showed healthy fish dropped into the river flailed and died within minutes.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 14:41
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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How does this apply to me?
Posted on: 2009/11/7 5:24
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Newbie
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My vote is with DowntownSteve28.
Sir, you are funny and sharp!
Posted on: 2009/11/7 5:04
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Just can't stay away
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Like apple pie! This morning I woke up on my "don't remove the tag" mattress, walked through my building code compliant house, used the federally compliant toilet, dressed the kids and drove them to their "state certified" charter school where they'll eat a state approved lunch. I got back in my state registered, emissions compliant, insured (by state requirement) car and drove the legal speed limit back to the house. I then walked through my Scottsdale code compliant yard (no weeds in our "desert" landscaping")into the house, drank pasteurized (USDA required) juice, and ate cereal processed in an inspected facility with milk from an USDA compliant dairy. I then took my FDA approved prescription pills (from a licensed pharmacy of course) and played with the state-licensed dogs. I took a call on my federally taxed cell phone (instead of the federally taxed land line), stopped by our FDIC insured bank (which received TARP money that it didn't want and is not allowed to pay back), and drove along city streets (paid for by sales and property taxes) to the closest Costco (which has a business license of course and pays mandated worker's comp). I bought beef franks made from inspected beef in an inspected facility, buns made in an OSHA compliant factory, and a gallon of Frank's in an approved plastic bottle. All of this before 10:15 am.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 3:06
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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I agree, take away their tax-exempt status.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 2:54
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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I favor the freedom of private enterprises to run their operations as they see fit. You can't get more American than that.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 2:52
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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The fact that I can't avail myself to that discount unless I make use of an organization I have no use for. That is what makes it prejudicial and in violation of civil rights. If the church wants to subsidize parking for its members, I have no problems. Well, except that, most likely those subsidy dollars would be coming from monies they have that were never taxed because they are a religious organization.
BTW, if a church, synagogue, mosque or other religious organization can segregate its charitable work funds from its religious operation/education/proselytizing monies, I have no problem with the charitable funds being tax free.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 2:38
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Just can't stay away
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My right to not feel like the victim of systemic discrimination. What kind of an American are you?
Posted on: 2009/11/7 2:30
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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How does a discount violate your rights? Rights to do what exactly?
Posted on: 2009/11/7 2:23
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Just can't stay away
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I never mentioned the Catholic Church. That you immediately associated the Catholic Church with my mention of child abuse speaks more about your awareness of the endemic problem and your own propensity for prejudice than it does about mine. I\'d like to third the call for you to justify your Public School claim.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 0:38
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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Just can't stay away
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I don't think you're grasping the basic issue at stake here. Maybe if we change some words around in the article, you'll see what the problem is: The complainant noticed a sign that offered "special parking up to 10 hours" for $5 at the Journal Square Ramp on Saturdays and Sundays for white people. The price for everyone else was $8. The Civil Rights Act, New Jersey state law and the city code of Jersey City do not distinguish between different forms of diversity. As an atheist living in an overwhelmingly religious society, I'd think you would be a little more conversant in what our rights are.
Posted on: 2009/11/7 0:03
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah's Witnesses in Journal Square
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If we're going to deny tax-exempt status to child molesters, then we certainly need to start with Public Schools, who harbor and cover up molesters by a ratio of 100 to 1 over Catholics. only we have no idea how many molesters exist in catholic churches. they seem to be quite prevalent, but the number could be several times greater than we will ever know. Quote: Please cite your source for this little pearl. Thanks. please do.
Posted on: 2009/11/6 13:04
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah\'s Witnesses in Journal Square
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Please cite your source for this little pearl. Thanks.
Posted on: 2009/11/6 1:51
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah\'s Witnesses in Journal Square
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@ Slacky
If we're going to deny tax-exempt status to child molesters, then we certainly need to start with Public Schools, who harbor and cover up molesters by a ratio of 100 to 1 over Catholics. Besides that, there are many non-Catholic churches and religious organizations who provide essential services to the disadvantaged and disenfranchised which no secular or government institution can be bothered with; see, for example, the history of New Jersey's mass expulsion of the mentally ill from institutions around the state. The fact is that the tired refrain of "Catholic child-molesters!!!" simply indicates an anti-Catholic bias, while giving a free pass to the other myriad other kid-touchers in public education. I'd expect more intellectual honesty of you, sir.
Posted on: 2009/11/6 1:42
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It's bad news for anyone who understands what property rights actually mean. If one didn't want to park there without the discount, or if it bothered you on principle, you were free not to patronize the garage. Why shouldn't the owner be free to charge whatever he wants?
As an atheist I would probably avoid a business that subsidizes religious people and it's not as if there's no where else to park. I agree with others that religious organizations not having to pay taxes, unlike other businesses (and, yes, they are businesses), is a much more troubling issue. Quote:
Posted on: 2009/11/6 1:09
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Just can't stay away
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You forgot child molesting, covering up and anti-gay marriage campaigning
Posted on: 2009/11/5 18:10
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah\'s Witnesses in Journal Square
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^^
Unlike those damn greedy soup-kitchen running, homeless and disability-supporting, School for the Blind running, decent school-providing, sex-trafficking fighting, free-counseling having Churches! Off with their heads!
Posted on: 2009/11/5 2:01
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Re: Atheist Group Stops Parking Discounts for Jehovah\'s Witnesses in Journal Square
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No, see... public dollars goes TOWARDS those places. They exist for the public benefit.
Posted on: 2009/11/4 19:30
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