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Ok, thanks, Mr Murdoch !

Perhaps things aren't as bad now as the Great Depression, but then again, we only just now got into it. How things shake out depends a large part on how policymakers respond, and from what I've seen so far, I"m not sure they have a clue how to deal with this thing. Just look at how they've been fumbling around with that $700 billion bailout money. One thing I know for sure, this is the worst economy I've seen in my adult life. Forget the stock market, it always eventually comes back - it's the massive job losses that are worrying.

To the ones who tell us to go out and spend because it's all in our heads due to media hype: Well, Phil Gramm, you're in denial. It's the spend, spend, spend mentality that got us here in the first place. Sure, Newport mall may have been packed to the rafters this weekend - I was there myself. That doesn't mean people were spending like they did in years past, or if they were, they're just digging themselves a deeper hole with the credit card debt. Look at all the retailers expecting double-digit sales declines this year. And maybe that's not such a bad thing after all, because American businesses and households are simply too overleveraged. That culture simply has to change. I'm lucky enough to have a decent-paying job, and I've never carried any debt other than my mortgage. But I'm not so dumb as to think that my job is still safe next month or next week. Just about every industry has been hit by massive layoffs. For the past year or so, I've been saving like I might lose my job next week. Maybe I won't need that cushion, but it's comforting to know it's there. As my parents always said: Never regret unspent money.

the problem is alot of metro areas like NYC/JC aren't really suffering to the same extent alot of other areas around the country are. is the sky falling? probably not to the extent that the media would want you to believe. but is there a noticeable problem at the macroeconomic level? yes

in 2006, 26,300,000 were receiving food stamps in America. over 2 years later, it has increased to 30,000,000.....is that a lot?

is it easier these days to qualify for food stamps?

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/co ... /m1a_STAMP_MAIN_0430.html

another argument that can be made is that it's just another example of Americans not controlling their spending and getting themselves in financial trouble, just like the bozos that took huge mortgages they couldn't afford, and were foreclosing on their houses 18 months later.

people losing their houses for taking foolish loans, people not being able to pay for food because of foolish spending.

of course there are several things to blame, and the recent job losses across the country are most certainly the cause of at least some of this increase of people getting food stamps, but there could be any number of additional reasons for it.

Getting "free" food (food stamps) != hungry.

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Perhaps it's hyperbole in your opinion because you don't know of any people who are hungry, but according to the following news article (and the department of agriculture, over 30,000,000 Americans are hunger or at risk of hunger. That figure is greater than the entire population of Canada.

Americans' Food Stamp Use Nears All-Time High

By Jane Black
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 26, 2008; A01

Fueled by rising unemployment and food prices, the number of Americans on food stamps is poised to exceed 30 million for the first time this month, surpassing the historic high set in 2005 after Hurricane Katrina.
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Perhaps it's hyperbole in your opinion because you don't know of any people who are hungry, but according to the following news article (and the department of agriculture, over 30,000,000 Americans are hunger or at risk of hunger. That figure is greater than the entire population of Canada.

Americans' Food Stamp Use Nears All-Time High

By Jane Black
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 26, 2008; A01

Fueled by rising unemployment and food prices, the number of Americans on food stamps is poised to exceed 30 million for the first time this month, surpassing the historic high set in 2005 after Hurricane Katrina.

The figures will put the spotlight on hunger when Congress begins deliberations on a new economic stimulus package, said legislators and anti-hunger advocates, predicting that any stimulus bill will include a boost in food stamp benefits. Advocates are also optimistic that President-elect Barack Obama, who made campaign promises to end childhood hunger and whose mother once briefly received food stamps, will make the issue a priority next year.

"We soon will have the most food stamps recipients in the history of our country," said Jim Weill, president of the Food Research and Action Center, a D.C.-based anti-hunger policy organization. "If the economic forecasts come true, we're likely to see the most hunger that we've seen since the 1981 recession and maybe since the 1960s, when these programs were established."

The Agriculture Department is set to release the new numbers as early as this week. Agency officials declined to confirm the figures but outlined them in a briefing last month for advocates and administrators of state food stamp programs. Breaking the symbolically important 30 million mark comes on the heels of government data showing that 11.9 million people went hungry in the United States at some point last year. That included nearly 700,000 children, up more than 50 percent from the year before.

Food pantries and other charitable organizations are also reporting an increase in demand from those in need. Visits to local pantries are up by 20 to 100 percent over the past six months, and calls to the Capital Area Food Bank's hunger hotline have jumped 248 percent. Most are from people who have never used food stamps or a pantry before, said Lynn Brantley, the organization's president and chief executive.

Analysts attribute the jump primarily to rising unemployment, which hit 6.5 percent in October and is predicted to increase to 8 percent by the end of 2009, but rising food costs are also a factor. Although prices have fallen from the levels of this past spring, they remain high. In October, the consumer price index for food and beverages had jumped 6.1 percent over last year. Staples such as eggs and bread rose even faster.

For low-income families, who spend a higher percentage of their monthly budget on food, that rise has been particularly painful. Food stamp benefits are adjusted for inflation only once a year, and as of September, the maximum benefit fell $64 a month short of the cost of the thriftiest, USDA-established diet for a family of four. The annual adjustment in October of 8.5 percent largely brought the benefit in line with food costs again, but the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a nonpartisan policy group, estimates that if current inflation persists, by December benefits will again fail to match the cost of the thrifty food plan.

"At a time when we have more people turning to the food stamp program, it is less and less able to meet their basic food needs," said Stacy Dean, the research center's director of food assistance policy.

To qualify for the food stamp program, whose name was officially changed last month to the Simplified Nutrition Assistance Program, recipients must have an income below 130 percent of the federal poverty level, or less than $27,564 for a family of four. The benefits, which average $109.93 a month per person, are based on a plan set by the government to represent a low-cost but nutritionally adequate diet. Participants apply locally to receive an electronic card that is used like an ATM card to buy food at most grocery stores and some farmers markets. The maximum benefit for a household of four is $588 a month.

At the Department of Human Services on H Street NE yesterday, the benefits office was busy. D.C. resident Harry Washington, 54, had come to apply for food stamps after losing his job at a Dupont Circle restaurant that closed for renovations last month. Over the past three years, he has received food stamps several times to tide him over between jobs. "This all has been going on awhile. It just depends where you are on the totem pole whether or not you have felt it," Washington said.

Jaqueline Hawkins was also there to sign up. The 47-year-old broke her hip last November, forcing her to leave her job at a Whole Foods Market. Hawkins received short-term disability, then unemployment benefits. Both have run out. "I came for food stamps because my other options have expired," she said. Hawkins plans to begin looking for work after Jan. 1.

Benefit applications are up around the Washington area. In the District, the number of applicants in October was 7.5 percent higher than last year's. In Arlington County, the average number of food stamp applications in the past six months is up 17 percent over applications during the same period last year.

At the Arlington Food Assistance Center, meanwhile, the number of clients has jumped by 25 to 35 percent over last year, said Executive Director Christine Lucas. Lines for food, sometimes with as many as 95 people, begin forming around 7:30 a.m., even though the food pantry does not open until 10.

On a recent morning, one of the early arrivers was Alvaro Ascencio. The 45-year-old, who lost his construction job after 12 years, was hopeful he would find work soon and had turned to the pantry as a stopgap. "If I didn't know about this, I wouldn't know what to do," Ascencio said through an interpreter.

To tackle the problem, supportive lawmakers are pressing to include a temporary bump in food stamp benefits in the next stimulus package. Similar proposals failed to pass twice this year, but there appears to be broad support now for an increase of 10 to 20 percent, advocates and lawmakers said.

Economists say an increase in food stamp benefits would help the economy overall by concentrating relief on those most likely to spend the money quickly, pumping dollars into an economy desperate for demand. According to Mark Zandi, chief economist of the rating agency Moody's Economy.com, every $1 spent on food stamp benefits generates $1.73 of economic activity, more than extending unemployment benefits or offering state fiscal relief.

"Congress has been focusing on the impact on the financial markets," said Dean at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. "We want them to focus on the supermarkets and help 30 million people."

In 2009, the new Congress will also have to deal with renewing the Child Nutrition and WIC Reauthorization Act, which includes school breakfast and lunch programs and the Women, Infants and Children program that provides money for specific foods such as milk and infant formula. The act is due to expire in September 2009, and Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), who chairs the Agriculture Committee, has long been keen to expand eligibility and strengthen mandates for nutritious food in these government-funded programs.


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I think the notion of another Great Depression is hyperbole. Let's not forget that during the Great Depression people went hungry and today a major health problem for the poor is obesity. That's a good illustration of how much better the standard of living is today and what's at stake (a decline in one's 401K vs. starving).

More reasonable comparisons to the current recession are 1) the 1973-1975 recession and its aftermath and 2) Japan's "lost decade" in the 1990s (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/30/japan.japan). The current recession is nowhere near as bad as either of these scenarios so far but that the "lost decade" began with a real estate bubble is ominous.

I'm more troubled by the government's effort to create a "solution" rather than acknowledge that what we have is a choice between taking the pain now and getting it over in a couple years or dragging it out over a decade. The notion that the government can bootstrap us out of this with public works spending (e.g. paying people to dig holes and then fill them in) is a recipe for a lost decade.

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Blame the media? Really - that's your argument? Lets review: Last month the economy lost over half a million jobs. That marked the 5th (or more, don't have the numbers in front of me at the moment) month in a row of increasing job losses (more job losses in Nov, than in Oct, more jobs lost in Oct than Sept, and so on...), and the 11th month in a row where the economy lost jobs. Those are simple facts, not media spin. The economy doesn't lose jobs in an expansion. We've lost about 1.9mm jobs since the start of the year.

I don't know about the sky falling... housing prices are falling, the stock market was falling, but if we can get away with printing enough money I guess we can get outta this thing. If we can only get the mortgage rate down to 4.5% then people will want to buy houses again! If we can only destroy the value of the dollar we can export our way out of this thing...

The media has little to do with what is going on. Sure sometimes they get carried away and try to make things entertaining to sell papers or get advertising revenue, but face the facts, if you think the "fundamentals of the economy are strong" or that it's all just media bias, i think you're very misinformed...

I think there are serious issues to deal with in the current situation with few easy fixes. For the media NOT to report that would be irresponsible.

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Cripes~

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There's always this guy to help you out...

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if you have any clue (which you dont), you will know the sky already fell 3 days after lehman went belly up. I did not state there will be a doomsday situation where the govenment breaksdown and people killing each other on the street. But the situation we are in is the worst in anyone's lifetime, it's uncharted. Noone alive right now has any experience dealing with it.

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I have no idea what the hell you are talking about here. Are you saying my opinion is based on watching cnn? eh....

if you have no clue what's going on, then it's better not to say anything.

Quote: This is for you, Mr. Bushy Tail.

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Is this your way of telling me there will NOT be a silver Lexus in my driveway with a big red bow?

Quote: Yeah, I know -- I keep thinking of that old Leonard Cohen song... Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows that the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich Thats how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied Everybody got this broken feeling Like their father or their dog just died Everybody talking to their pockets Everybody wants a box of chocolates And a long stem rose Everybody knows Everybody knows that you love me baby Everybody knows that you really do Everybody knows that youve been faithful Ah give or take a night or two Everybody knows youve been discreet But there were so many people you just had to meet Without your clothes And everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows Thats how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows Thats how it goes Everybody knows And everybody knows that its now or never Everybody knows that its me or you And everybody knows that you live forever Ah when youve done a line or two Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old black joes still pickin cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows And everybody knows that the plague is coming Everybody knows that its moving fast Everybody knows that the naked man and woman Are just a shining artifact of the past Everybody knows the scene is dead But theres gonna be a meter on your bed That will disclose What everybody knows And everybody knows that youre in trouble Everybody knows what youve been through From the bloody cross on top of calvary To the beach of malibu Everybody knows its coming apart Take one last look at this sacred heart Before it blows And everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows Thats how it goes Everybody knows Oh everybody knows, everybody knows Thats how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows

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It's amazing. Schiff was/is dead on. Meanwhile Laffer, who was heaping scorn upon Schiff during the debate (not unlike some of the people on this board criticizing Fast Eddie), now looks quite foolish. Check out the following interview of Laffer by Bill Maher re: the Laffer/Schiff interview a couple of years hence, and watch how Laffer tries to backpedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3WjgKUf-kA&feature=related. If it weren't so tragic it would be quite Laffable.

If your job and position is secure and the co. you work for will without a shadow of doubt ride this economic storm, then 'shop till you drop'.

On the other hand if you know (most of us should know by now) that your co. is on shaky ground, then shop at the 99c stores and have a 'budget christmas'.

As my oldman would say 'don't let you eyes be bigger then your wallet'.

And I say, 'Dump your material assets to maintain your primary asset'. Sell your car, golf clubs and all the other crap one acquires in their life time and have a 'cushion' in your mortgage. If you have your home paid for, sit back and relax.

fasteddie is right. We're screwed. I'm gonna get ahead of the coming calamity and start working on some train songs. I could be a legendary hobo.

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You need to stop subscribing to the chicken little philosophy of "The Sky is Falling" becuase of what the media is feeding you and start living your life!

This is no different than the 70's, the late 80's, etc, etc, the US is going to bankrupt all the other nations inorder to get ourselves back on track as the dominant economy.Think outside the box and not Ala CNN !

It is bad, look at the numbers released each day. Media just add dramatization to it, but it doesnt change the fundamental.

Stock market is forward looking 2 years, so even when the market finally begin to turn, it doesnt mean the economy is.

The way we are going now with treasury yield at zero, fed fund rate close to zero after today's cut, printing press working nonstop and unemployment at record. We are creating a second bubble, when that bursts as current panic subdues and investors leave treasury safety for better returns in stock market etc, expect major reverse from current deflationary environment to a huge spike in inflation. What a mess we got ourselves into.

Anyway go shop your gadgets and fancy shoes. My christmas shopping list this year consist of: sugar, soy bean, corn, wheat, zinc, copper, aluminum and some oil.

not just the city. I was shopping at the newport mall on sunday and I waited almost 30 mins just to get some damn chinese food. The food court was an absolute mob. All the stores were packed and lines a plenty. Then I got to target and I wanted to blow my brains out. PACKED!!!

I hear you about the media. I am sort of shocked by all the new SUV's I'm seeing. I thought people were avoiding these big monsters because of gas prices, the environment and the economy, but I see people driving BRAND NEW Suv's - not a single scratch on them.

I was in the city this past weekend and couldn't get over how the stores were packed with people spending $$$ and not withstanding how the local eaterys were standing room only, so in my eyes, theres a definate Paradox as to what the media is bombarding everyone with VS what's actually going on.

Like the other poster just stated, it's the Media's job to scare the Crap out of everyone and create Histeria, thats how they make their $$$$$$$$

Go and Spend !!!!

Guys if you need advice about what is gonna happen, listen to Peter Schiff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PhilDeCarolis

Don't believe everything you read. The media makes money by getting you all upset and worried. Relax.

I just went Christmas shopping so I did my part now it's your turn.

Yeah that's right, so get out to the mall and start spending some money.

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Dude, stop with the scare tactics and most importantly stop buying into everything the Media trys to sell everyone on a day to day basis.

Theres only one way after the economy nose dives and thats "UP" !!!!

We need to weather the storm and hold tight !

I keep hearing horror stories from economists, the worst is yet to come. A second and even bigger wave of mortgage defaults is on the way. Every state is in budgetary distress. Banks are not lending to businesses, business are collapsing or laying off workers, workers are afraid to spend money. It's a vicious cycle. And how many more Madhoffs are hiding out there? I'm not much of a worrier but what worries me is that the experts have no idea how to fix it. In the depression of the 1930's, it took WWII to revive the economy. Seems to me that the Federal Gov is in a state of low key panic and totally clueless about a solution. I am throwing this out here because I know that JCList posters have the answers to most of the worlds problems but nobody ever listens. If you post your economic solutions here, the webmaster would feel compelled to print them out and take them down to Washington and put them before some House committee.

"Mr. Chairman, I hold in my hands an economic stimulous plan authored by an esteemed member of the JCList community, a Mr. Fat Ass Bike"