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Re: Fatal shooting at Montgomery Gardens public housing complex.
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Just can't stay away
 
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Amazon- Gang Leader for A Day Although this book isn't specific to Montgomery Gardens, it gives an insightful look at what life was like for blacks living in some of Chicago's worst projects. I'd imagine that you'd be able to draw a lot of similarities. alb I think that you might enjoy it specifically because it answers much of what you ask above.
Posted on: 2008/4/2 11:44
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Re: Fatal shooting at Montgomery Gardens public housing complex.
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One thing we're missing here is data about what's really going on with the Montgomery Gardens residents, the residents of the scarier looking projects, the residents of the low-rise subsidized housing developments, and people in Section 8 housing. Obviously, some crooks living in all of that housing, but some crooks also live in Newport and Portside. Maybe the percentages are worse at Montgomery Gardens, but, if you adjust for the fact that there are very few teenagers in Paulus Hook or Newport, are the percentages really THAT terrible? Even if the overall percentages are bad, my guess would be that the most of the kids in the low-rise developments turn out fine, at least half of the Montgomery Gardens, and the percentages are worse in the scarier projects. But, if we don't have actual data showing what percentage of the kids go to college, what percentage stay off welfare, etc., all any of us can do is guess.
Posted on: 2008/4/2 4:27
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And now, New Heights, you know why I don't take Ambien. :)
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:59
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Re: Fatal shooting at Montgomery Gardens public housing complex.
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I lived in Queensbridge and Ravenswood projects in NYC and it wouldn't have been too bad if I hadn't been on drugs. I got hooked on drugs in Paradise--Miami Beach. I had many of the risk factors that contribute to addiciton and crime, the highest being abuse, poverty and lack of education. Hey, now I guest teach college classes and am asked for my opinion on TV. Lucky for you that you didn't get arrested as projects are targeted a lot by enforcement. I think getting arrested and imprisoned was a major contributor to my staying addicted. And now, if it weren't for some initiative and luck I still wouldn't be working. I went on job searches forever and did well in the interview but once they did the background check they said see ya. I HAD to start my own business which is relevant to earlier posts since I clean houses and walk dogs. But I am a darn good organizer and decorator too. The projects are mostly dangerous for those that get involved in the life, but I still wouldn't want to go back.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:57
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Re: Fatal shooting at Montgomery Gardens public housing complex.
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justjoe, great to hear someone can come out ahead. but i think the crucial difference is the times. it just seems as there are NO hardworking parents raising these people. There are no values being instilled. when i say "these people" i mean the ones causing the problems, not all the residents.
I see it on a daily basis, mothers bitching out their kids, littering in front of their kids, dealing drugs in front of their kids. I've said it till i'm blue in the face, blame the parents. And i'm sure some will say "but he's 25". doesn't matter, if he was raised like sh*t, he's not going to automatically turn into a prince at 18. Sure you can't go after parents when they're adults, but i bet if you fined them the first time junior got into trouble, that may be motivation to set him right. if only to protect their own pockets.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:45
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Re: Fatal shooting at Montgomery Gardens public housing complex.
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Just can't stay away
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FWIW, housing projects, of themselves, are not the culprits. Something else is going on.
Back in the late 40s and early 50s, my family lived in Hudson Gardens, the complex at the top of Newark Ave, across Palisades Ave from Dickinson HS. Yes, life was tough. My father was in the TB Santarium. My mother left for work at 6am. We were eseentially unsupervised, like most of the rest of the kids our age. I did my own share of juvie crime (petty theft, no personal violence). Drugs were not an issue, and that may be one of the missing factors. But wine and beer were available. Despite many opportunities to go to hell, I did not. From the time I was 12 years old, I always had a job that made an important contribution to the family. After High School, , despite lack of further education, I found great jobs. Learning as I went, I created a few profitable businesses along the way and I now own an Internet business with clients in 7 countries. My younger brother became both an MD and a lawyer. My sister has a Phd in education. My children and adult grandchildren have great careers, mostly professional. This is not bragging; just facts that refute any charge that housing projects are inherently bad and are the cause of ruin for all who live in them. What's the missing part of the puzzle as to why so many bad people come out of them today? As I said, I don't know.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:22
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This isn't to give anyone a hard time, just want to share an experience I had surrounding statistics. I was on the John Walsh show where a woman told everyone her organization was not racist because it sterilized the same amount of white women as black. I forget the exact number she gave but it was around 50/50. The problem with that number is that blacks make up only 13% of the population so she was actually sterilizing 5 times as many. I always keep that in mind.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:16
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propscene
your excuse for the dog walkers success is hysterical. something tells me that in your opinion anyone who's successful got lucky or did it because of connections. you dont need lawschool connections to be a dog walker. If you hang out in a housing project with other underachievers chances are those will be your "connections". They sit on the stoop all day and talk about how to get more food stamps or how shitty their living condition is but dont do a damn thing about it. Walk by a project and hear what they talk about. not one will say "hey lets figure a way to get out of this shithole!" Why is it that liberals always have to look at the negative in everything. Stop making excuses for yourself and others, especially entire groups of people. marybarr- its ok to disagree with me I just though you might have been on ambien when you wrote those comments
Posted on: 2008/4/1 20:06
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Every comment relating to african americans Ive read regarding this issue is nothing short of rascist. are you telling me that because of what happened 60 yrs ago a 15 yr old child cant learn to read or write. By the way the military is less than 20 percent african american not 90% as you make it out to be.
Did you ever hear the term "Irish Need Not Apply"? your excuses are pathetic and you should be ashamed for the way you describe african americans.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 19:56
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The more you compare the Irish to the Black experience in 'coming to America,' the lamer it sounds. But keep trying.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 19:36
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petey8 wrote:
No one said, or even implied, that other groups weren't discriminated against. What I said was THIS: "The Irish and Italians weren't beaten and hung, sanctioned by US law, for learning the language and opening businesses, among other things." Ummmm, no the Irish were forced into the army right at the dock when their ships came in and scores of them died. then they were denied jobs and services---and yes they were beaten if they tried to make money. And it was sanctioned by US law which was the forerunner to the modern police department. New Heights wrote Marybarr- I hope you were on ambien when you wrote this. So, everyone that disagrees with you must be on drugs?
Posted on: 2008/4/1 18:01
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And, sure, many Italian immigrants, Irish immigrants, Et Cetera immigrants faced poverty and mediocre schools back home and discrimination when they got here, and you can still see the effects of those problems on our society. There are plenty of poor white kids in the Heights, and it's as unrealistic to expect all of them to start successful supermarket chains as it would be to expect poor black kids in the scary projects by the MLK light rail stop to do that. The ideal would be to figure out what to do to help all of those kids do better, not to use one group to beat up on the other group, or my entrepreneurial great-grandparents to beat up on the poor kids of today. If someone asks, "Who DON'T those poor kids start successful businesses?" in a sincere way, OK, I'm sure there's red tape we should cut. I'm sure there are programs that should help backfire. But I don't think we should assume all welfare programs are equally bad and cut benefits willy nilly on the assumption that people will find food and housing somehow, or else don't deserve to find food and housing.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 17:54
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Apples and oranges. And, yes, I know a bit about my Irish history.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 17:40
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No one said, or even implied, that other groups weren't discriminated against. What I said was THIS:
"The Irish and Italians weren't beaten and hung, sanctioned by US law, for learning the language and opening businesses, among other things." What is the matter with you???? You actually want to even try to compare these groups? This is the kind of talk we get in Jersey City in the year 2008, 5 minutes away from New York City? I can't believe it.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 17:40
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Not too shy to talk
 
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Whoever said the Irish in America were not persecuted and discriminated against needs to brush up on their history.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 17:03
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I'm sorry if I worded this in a way that seems racist or condescending, and it would be great if someone who could word this argument better would make it better, but I think that, however you word it, the comparison between immigrants who came here of their own free will and African American people who are descended from slaves is totally unfair to African American people. My ancestors might have been broke, but they came here voluntarily, and a lot of free, reasonably prosperous people supported them when they arrived. If they needed a small loan, they could get a small loan. As far as I know, the majority of African Americans who came here in the 1800s were brought here because someone captured them, enslaved them, stuck them in the hold of a ship, killed the ones who seemed likely to escape, then trapped them in the fields for generations. Maybe some of them were merchants or manufacturers in Africa, but, if so, that was random chance, not because the youngest son of a master weaver in Ghana decided to see the world in the hold of a slave ship. Then, even after slavery ended, white people trapped many of the freed slaves in conditions resembling slavery for about a century. The miracle is that, despite all of that, Jersey City is home to a large community of middle-income and upper-income African American people who do have great educations, great jobs and great kids. But, just because those African American people have made it, and may in many cases be descended from a long line of prosperous African American people, that doesn't mean that that African American people who live in Montgomery Gardens, or in a much crummier project, necessarily have the same chance to start a successful deli or shoe store that a recent immigrant from Russia or India has. If I'm wording this in a way that somehow seems racist toward African American people, I'm sorry. But I think it's better to write something unintentionally racist than to blame some poor person who's stuck in a scary project for not being Horatio Alger.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 16:34
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Home away from home
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I was referring to the illegal immigrants of the 21st century, not those of the 19th century.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 16:04
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If you made them take jobs program jobs that forced them to pay taxes, their after-tax income would probably drop quite a lot. That is the problem. You get paid more for sitting at home pumping out babies than you do with a real job. Welfare discourages getting a real job and breeds apathy. I have no problem temporarily helping people so that the family doesn't enter a crisis (similar to a run on a bank). But long term benefits are unsustainable.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 14:07
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Even more sickening when you consider the fact that most African Americans descended from people who were forcible yanked away from their country (and lives and businesses) and brought to the US where it was illegal for them to learn to read, or to learn any trade but what the massa wanted them to do. When you start trying to compare immigrant groups, and how the generations past can shed light on the present day---don't forget that fact. The Irish and Italians weren't beaten and hung, sanctioned by US law, for learning the language and opening businesses, among other things.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 14:07
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Home away from home
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The millions of illegal aliens in this country and the NYC metro area refute this argument. What do you think they do here? Work. How much do you think they get paid? Very little. What advantages do they have vis a vis the native population? None. Yet they prosper and manage to send billions of dollars each year back to their home countries.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 13:55
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Home away from home
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This comment is disturbing on so many levels, and it basically sickens me that you have the audacity to post that. So sad!
Posted on: 2008/4/1 4:11
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sure, New Heights,
I just might agree with you if: 1. Someone could live on minimum wage in the NYC metro area rather than resort to welfare, especially if they were able to afford part-time child care so that they were able to go to work. 2. There were actually enough jobs in the U.S. that paid a livable wage available for those people without that "overrated" college degree . Btw, I know a professional dog walker, and he's been to law school. His contacts were partially what allowed him to build a network of dog owning clients. The world would be a much better place if "laziness" was all that kept anyone who wanted to from making a decent living. How are those black and white glasses working out for you? Or are you just trolling this thread?
Posted on: 2008/4/1 3:53
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I think that one thing to keep in mind is that poor people and their neighborhoods can be as diverse as middle-income people and their neighborhoods. In my opinion, there's a huge, huge difference between the projects and subsidized housing complexes downtown and the ones over by the MLK light rail stop. To me, it seems as if the projects by the MLK light rail stop are scary to walk past and are clearly out of control. The kids there probably are seriously trapped, and I think the test scores for the grade schools around there show that. Downtown, in contrast, the people in the subsidized apartments all seem to be doing something productive, not just staring angrily or numbly at passersby. The children seem to be looked after reasonably well. The buildings themselves are in decent repair. Even the notorious towers are not all THAT terrible. Certainly, some people there get shot each year, but a ton of people live there, and most of them don't get shot. I once let my daughter use a playground at Montgomery Gardens. The playgrounds were gorgeous, and, from the playground, the complex looked about the way I'd expect an ordinary market-rate complex to look. I think one sign that the downtown projects/subsidized housing developments are doing a pretty good job is that the grade schools around them have better standardized test scores than you might expect. The Kennedy grade school, for example, looks like a hideous prison, but the kids in the lower grades there get decent standardized test scores. On some tests, they do better than the kids at P.S. 16 in Paulus Hook. Quote: Welfare should be all but eliminated and people should have to get off their lazy asses and work for a living. Yes, I quite agree. There's absolutely no reason why the Fed should be bailing out Bear Stearns. Just say no to welfare for giant investment banks. Anyhow, seriously: I think the grim secret of the downtown projects is that a lot of those people are "unemployed" because they're all working 50 hours a week as maids, nannies, gardeners, drug couriers, etc. off the books. If you made them take jobs program jobs that forced them to pay taxes, their after-tax income would probably drop quite a lot. Quote: How come anyone off the boat can come here and start their own business and be successful but families on 4th or 5th generation of welfare cant get ahead. Because the people who come here off the boat generally do something that they learned to do back home. African Americans generally don't have that advantage because they're descended from people who learned how to be soldiers or POWs at home, not shopkeepers. Quote: The reason we cant get rid welfare and housing projects is because the dems need their votes come election time. Also because dems have problems with cities of gleaming towers and lovely brownstones surrounded by cardboard and tar paper shantytowns. To us dems, those shantytowns just don't look very hygenic. Anyhow, I'm sure a lot of welfare programs are still inefficient and poorly designed, but I think it's important to try to talk to the program clients and the housing project residents and find out what they actually experience, and not just to assume we know what's going on there because we read the newspaper and went to college.
Posted on: 2008/4/1 3:46
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Marybarr- I hope you were on ambien when you wrote this.
All housing projects are is a breeding ground for this blight. They should all be knocked down. Welfare should be all but eliminated and people should have to get off their lazy asses and work for a living. How come anyone off the boat can come here and start their own business and be successful but families on 4th or 5th generation of welfare cant get ahead. If you hussle you can make money doing anything. College is a bunch of bull$hit and it is not necessary to be successful in this country. I know dog walkers that make alot more than people that went to college. No slight to dog walkers, its just funny how people buy a dog for happinesss and cant enjoy it because they work their asses off and the dog walker gets paid to walk their dog. The dog walker many times makes more money than the person they are walking the dog for. The reason we cant get rid welfare and housing projects is because the dems need their votes come election time. The socialists in this country use poor people and keep them in the ghetto and projects by subjecting them to welfare and other failed social programs. They do this for 2 reasons , 1. as I mentioned before the votes and 2. its their failed plan of socialism that they cant come to terms with the fact it doesnt work. Greed is not the problem here, its stupid lazy people being misguided that is the problem.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 22:11
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Look, I live at The Beacon and a lot of folk here probably feel the same as you.....but I can't agree. If we level it, which will happen within 2 years, what solution do we place there? If not a job skills training school, any other qulaity school, or a place that creates jobs that don't need expensive to get degrees then nothing will change. It will all just move in a circle and land back on us. We have to start thinking bigger than that and until we stop blaming one little area for all the problems that won't happen. Greed is ultimately the problem, but we can have graft and all of that and still make a difference. Just move the graft and greed so that it also benefits the poor. You know, don't bribe anyone who won't create opportunities for others besides thier cronies and nephews. Instead of sentencing kids to a correctional institute or giving them the choice to join the army or go to jail, let's sentence them to college. It costs a lot less than prison and works a whole lot better---acording to the bureau of justice it would work 68% better--but then they'd lose all thier contracts. So let's keep the contracts in corrections but make the corporations that do business there agree to hire a certain percentage of ex-offenders at a decent wage instead of the $4.50 a week they get paid while inside. Let's place offenders in alternatives---treatment---job skills programs---that cost us 1/3 the price and are 8 times more effective. Hmmmm. might that break the circle? And is it not broken because we are tired of fighting the powers that be or because we want it like that? Well, then we are stupid because we say we want less crime but keep the same conditions that create crime.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 21:28
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Home away from home
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with all due respect, living at Montgomery Gardens is like applying for the obituary. they should level that place
Posted on: 2008/3/31 20:58
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with all due respect, living at Montgomery Gardens is like applying for the obituary.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 20:55
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Just can't stay away
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Heights: such a waste.....of newspaper ink & space Perhaps some will say this about you when your obituary hits the newspaper.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 20:47
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Home away from home
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Since when is a human life of no value?
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Posted on: 2008/3/31 20:44
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What else is new, such a waste.....of newspaper ink & space.
Posted on: 2008/3/31 16:30
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