Anybody have any knowledge of the Congress Street and Palisade Avenue bus stop? Is it full during rush hour or can you always get on?

Heights-NYC bus ticket deal
Wednesday, April 09, 2008

Commuters in the Jersey City Heights are getting nearly half off bus trips to Manhattan.

To promote Central Avenue ridership on the Nos. 10 and 99s, Red & Tan/Coach USA has dropped round-trip ticket prices from $8 to $4.50 - but only for customers getting on or off north of Journal Square.

One-way riders to Manhattan also get the break, and can pay $2 cash on the bus for the $4 trip, but those traveling back from the city only get the discount with a round-trip ticket, which must be purchased at participating businesses.

Round-trip tickets, which cost $4 plus a 50 cent handling fee, are available at: Goehrig's Bakery (475 Central Ave.), Garden State News (366 Central Ave.), and the Mendez Agency (263 Central Ave.).

The company is adding two more buses during the morning rush on a trial basis, stopping at Hutton Street at 7:03 a.m. and 8:03 a.m. But there's bad news, too - the last three 99s buses that ran on Palisade Avenue during the evening rush were cut after the entire line was rerouted from Palisade to Central Avenue in August. The changes began Monday.

AMY SARA CLARK

OK, we managed to move to Jersey City Heights in late November - knowing of the situation with the 99S having moved to Central. But to find out a month later that the bus would be canceled was a real blow. We joined the Riverview Neighborhood Association, sent in post cards, met with the mayor, etc. The suggestion of the 123 extension seemed promising. But, alas, today I looked up the new schedule to see how frequent it would be and to find out if they would be charging an extra zone to come south of Congress. Sure enough, they are gouging us for 1/4 of the service they provide to Union City. Unreal!!!!! I'm fuming over this. If my commute is going to cost me the same amount of time and money as riding down to Hoboken on the 87 and catching the much-more-reliable Path train, then I think I'll be sticking with that route. They couldn't even give us 1/2 of the service options as Union City? I mean do Union City dwellers pay more taxes than we do? What's the rub? We moved here to possibly buy the condo we're presently renting next year, but I truly wouldn't want to give over $6100 a year to a community that can't find a way for me to get to work using public transportation so that I can make that money to invest here. Manhattan is only 3 miles away, let us not forget. This is not the Pennsylvania border, which likely has better direct service into Manhattan. I'll be letting the JC powers that be know that they are losing two residents later this year if they don't fix this issue.

"I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" to quote a great film.

In rush hours, 123 buses won't all go the extra mile

Saturday, March 29, 2008
By AMY SARA CLARK
JOURNAL STAFF WRITER

Jersey City Heights residents are about to get their Palisade Avenue bus service to New York back, but with less-frequent service than they had expected.

They were left without service in August, when Red & Tan/Coach U.S.A. rerouted its 99S bus to Central Avenue. Last month, NJ Transit announced that beginning next Saturday it would extend service on the No. 123 - which currently runs between Congress Street and the Port Authority Bus Terminal on 42nd Street in Manhattan - an extra 1.1 miles south to Christ Hospital.

But during rush hour not all buses will go that extra distance. So while buses run from Congress Street every 7 to 12 minutes between 7 and 9 a.m., the extended-route bus will only run every 30 minutes.

In the evening rush hour, the extended-route buses will run every 16 to 24 minutes, compared to every 6 to 15 minutes to Congress Street.

NJ Transit has promised to continue the service through the end of the year, and will make it permanent if there are enough riders. But area residents are worried the limited rush hour service will fail to attract enough customers to meet the agency's expectations.

"It will be hard to establish a robust ridership without a robust schedule during rush hour," said Becky Hoffman, president of the Riverview Neighborhood Association.

Hoffman points out, for example, that to get to the city by 9 a.m., riders will only have two choices: the 7:33 a.m., arriving at 8:13, or the 8:05 a.m., arriving at 8:45 a.m.

During the evening rush, Hoffman says, there are such long lines at Port Authority that it is likely the extended-route buses will fill with riders bound for Union City, leaving Heights-bound riders to wait 16 to 24 minutes for the next extended-route bus.

An NJ Transit spokesman said the agency understands the concerns and would have preferred to extend all the buses, but couldn't afford it.

"We came up with a schedule that balances the needs of the customers affected by the discontinuation of the 99S with what we were able to do," said Dan Stessel, a spokesman for NJ Transit. "It's considerably better than what exists today, which is nothing."

As for Hoffman's concern about the evening rush hour buses filling with Union City riders, Assemblyman Vincent Prieto, D-Secaucus, who was instrumental in negotiating the extended service, said NJ Transit told him priority would be given to Heights-bound riders. NJ Transit could not confirm this promise.

"How will it work in practice?" said Hoffman, explaining it would be intimidating for riders to walk past a line of angry commuters to get on the bus.

"Commuters can get ornery when they're trying to get home."

The 10/99S isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The real question is whether there is sufficient demand to run buses from Palisade Avenue into Manhattan on its own line. I am not sure that this is the case. Frankly, I think that the route is generally too close to the 10/99S to avoid what could be seen as cannabalization of the Red & Tan route.

I don't think that I am wrong, but I am willing to make a bet with all of you. If any of you can prove that Palisade Avenue can support at least HOURLY bus service with a full bus directly to Manhattan during rush hours, I will make sure it happens. Who is willing to take me up on my offer?

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Interesting document. I wish I'd seen it sooner.

How can you blame the jitneys for stealing passengers from the Red & Tan lines. It seems to me that NJ idea of mass transit is flawed and favors cars. Mass transit should be cheap to encourage the widest possible use (look at NY's which is heavily subsidized), while NJ's mentality seems to be to seek to cover the costs which makes those Red & tan lines expensive.

Sure, there is exploitation everywhere and the jitney driver should probably be unionized and better regulated, but it seems to me that the many people are just sour apples.

Those jitney vans are absolutely vital not just to Jersey City, but for the Union City, Weehawken, North Bergen, Paterson, Clifton as well.

That's part of the scam. The real money to be made is moving people up and down the Jersey side. They run a small service into NYC so they can maintain their Intra-State permits which offer them a layer of protection from Municipalities.

How do they lose money on going into NYC? They can't run their van through the Lincoln tunnel packed with a million people. No standees allowed or there's a very big fine. They also have to pay to go through the tunnel. Going to and exiting the tunnels takes a lot of time and a lot of gas without the ability to pick up additional passengers during that time. If they stay up and down the jersey side theres always someone hopping on and they can have as many people standing that are willing to.

after addressing and hopefully accomplishing restoration of service, then please start thinking long term.

the city is in the process of approving a contract with a consultant to perform the Circulation Element of the Master Plan (ie. Traffic Study) which will have a mass transit element. as part of the study process, a stakeholder group is to be created.

via neighborhood assocations and community groups, contact City Planning to ensure that your community has a seat at the table.

The Jitney's ARE part of the problem. They take ridership away from buses, plain and simple. They are actually Fed regulated, not stated regulated, since they run an interstate service. Saying that, the city doesn't have to just turn its back on the problem. They drive through our city, on the roads we pay taxes for. They city needs to step up and force regulation. Set up more road blocks to check the registration, inspection, and drivers.

They are also a quality of life issue, traffic slowed along Palisade, dangerous driving, unsafe vehicles, polution, and so on.....

Jitneys are basically a moving sweatshop. The people who drive them are extremely exploited. I looked at them briefly because my union thought about bringing them into the union since a few of the workers complained to us about conditions and pay.

The "owners" of these companies know every loophole there is, they incorporate under dozens of different names and change corporate names frequently. Even the County prosecutor mentioned how difficult it is to track down who the owners really are.

To top it off their labor model is to say that each driver is an owner/operator - independent contractor. Under Federal Law independent contractors have no collective bargaining rights i.e. they aren't allowed to join a labor union.

The business model of the Jitneys - in its entirety - is not something that we should applaud. The problems that arise from them could be solved by the right people coming together and crafting a political solution. To read more about the Jitneys check out this report:

PDF HUdson County Transit Report

Stop blaming the jitneys for all the problems. NJ transit buses break down all the time. And did the City or the Community ever approach the jitney cooperative about increasing service along palisade Ave to Port Aythority; each jitney is independently owned.

Maybe the City should give a subsidy to the jitneys to run service into Port Authority along Palisade.

The Jitney's are state run so there is no possible regulation by the City concerning these vehicles other than treating them as any other moving vehicle and ticketing them for traffic violations.

The problem people have with these vehicles is that while they provide valuable transportation, they are often very unsafe. I got to experience this once when one stalled in the middle of a nearby intersection and then burst into flames. Luckily it had no passengers and the driver was fine and safe.

However, the flames were high enough and hot enough to melt a huge group of overhead wires and took down telephone and cable lines for 3 days while they had to be replaced.

The State simply is too far away to properly regulate these vehicles, which greatly frustrates both City officials and the elected Council, who have to deal with the real life consequences of these unregulated vehicles that they are blamed for. I'm sure most in the City would love have some regulation over these vehicles.



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I disagree with this sentiment. Like I said NJ Transit is a tax payer dollar subsidized agency that runs dozens of extremely unprofitable routes throughout the state because it is in the public's interest. That said it is doubtful that a direct to NYC bus route from JSQ up Palisade would be extremely unprofitable.

The idea of there not being enough gates?? When I moved here every lane of Journal Square was in use, now they have closed down an entire lane where there was bus service and use it to park cop cars and emergency vehicles. That argument is a farce.

Whether or not people take the 123 will not demonstrate demand for DIRECT service. Seriously, who the hell wants to go through union city for a half hour stopping at every light and corner before going into NYC?

People work hard, they pay taxes, they move into an area where they had direct bus service to NYC and that service was taken away from them. The service being offered as a replacement is not comparable and what is important is not just how many people take the bus, but what kind of neighborhood area do we want the Heights to be. Direct bus service like we had (and even better) is a must.

I was there last night. A couple of observations:

1. Extending the 123 does not solve the problem. The 99s, albeit poorly, provided a quick ride to NYC from the Heights. We all know how bad traffic gets, the idea that this bus is going to take people all through Union City before going into Manhattan is ridiculous. I've beaten the 123 while on my bicycle before rush hour in the morning so I can only imagine what happens during the rush.

My prediction is that most folks will not want a potential half hour detour through Union City before going to work. They'll hop the Jitneys, walk to the light-rail or take the 87 (just remember if you live near Palisade and actually want a seat on the 87 it may be worthwhile to walk to Journal Square and catch it there....a possible solution to easing the overcrowding is to actually have school bus service so working commuters don't have to share the bus with 50 sugar fueled school kids).

It is interesting how Jersey City is playing second fiddle to Union City when it comes to NJ Transit service to NYC. This leads to a second observation.

2. There is lots of talk about how the route needs to make a profit and if their designed-to-fail 123 service doesn't get 100 passengers (whatever that means in practice) it will be discontinued.

But wait a minute.

Nj Transit, as most public transit services (including the quasi public Amtrak) don't exist to turn a profit. In fact NJ transit receives substantial subsidies from your tax dollars. The reason we have public rather than private transportation is specifically because of situations that arise in places like the Heights as well as in rural areas.... sometimes it is important/necessary to run unprofitable routes.

There is an obvious demand for DIRECT service to NYC from this area of the Heights. Granted if you were to open up your own private bus service you may not turn a profit (unless of course you can use unsafe broken down third hand vans, illegal immigrant workers who you are being exploited and barely paid you just might make a little something).

The question of DIRECT bus service from the Heights to NYC is just as much, if not more, of a political question than a profit question.

When I first moved here 8 years ago DIRECT bus service to NYC was one of the selling points. And not just Rush Hour service. How many folks like to spend a late night in NYC, it was great having an option at port authority rather than wait for ever for a late night path train and then wait on a long line for an expensive cab ride.

If you were to look at any ads for apartments or real estate being sold direct bus service to NYC was one of the main selling points.

Therefore, if you are seriously interested in improving the Heights and especially the Palisade area you want to keep a convenient direct bus route going through the main thoroughfare to encourage more development and revitalize the area even if slightly unprofitable.

It appears to me there is no thought out plan on revitalization of the Heights. The politicians present were more interested in patting themselves on the back and showing how responsive they are to potential voters. I didn't see any leadership, none of them talked about how a direct bus route is important not just to the voters present but also to the continued economic revitalization of the area.

No, I'm not impressed Hudson County politicians who sit on transit boards, highly connected to the party in power in the state and control major streams of funding were able to extend a bus route that will take people out of the way on a long unnecessary ride through another city on a packed and cramped bus.

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Part of the problem is that gate space at Port Authority is in short supply. If Coach USA/RED & Tan does pull out the 99s/10...well, there may be a gate available to take over. I don't know what the gate situation is like at the JSQ end.

The prevailing sentiment again is that we must demonstrate demand (and financial viability) for a new route by using the extended 123 route when it comes into effect.

Kudo's to RNA, great job getting some sort of bus service back to Palisade ave. They got us the bus, now we have to use it.....use it or loose it. I agree that something is amis with the politicians and how they side stepped the issue of regulating the jittny's. Maybe we need to push for some sort of regulation of the jittny's whether it be on a local, state, or federal level.

No one was blaming the jittny's at last nights meeting, but a important point was made by one of the resdents who attended the meeting. When the bus service was moved off of Palisade, that was a perfect opportunity for the jittny's to step up. But instead they did nothing. They didn't increase the number of jittny's going into the city (god knows they have enough jittny's going up and down palisade) and they didn't increase the time frame that they choose to run. They only service NYC from approx. 7 - 9 am and 5 - 7 pm.

As far as getting a direct bus to NYC from Jrnl Sq. to PA down thru Hoboken, if the people in Union City can't get on the 123 because we are filling the seats before the bus gets there, I am sure they will scream. That will show transit that there is a strong enough ridership to warrant a direct bus of our own.

Don't blame the jitneys. The jitneys provide a valuable service, especially since NJ has failed to build sufficient mass transit to move people around.

I wonder why NJ Transit just doesn't operate a service along Palisade Ave from JSQ to Port Authority.

I agree, it is a step in the right direction.

I cannot help but think though, that this is part of a larger problem stemming from the largely unregulated Jitney population. The elected officials quickly moved on from this topic last night, but not before admitting that the Jitney's are unregulated by Jersey City. They said the only recourse was to pull them over and fine them for violations. Could it be that the officials are afraid of stepping on the toes of a certain voter base that frequent the Jitney's?

It was an interesting meeting. In brief: The NJ Transit 123 bus, which currently begins at the Congress St. Light Rail station and runs up Palisade Ave. through Union City to 32nd St. then down to the tunnel, will be extended 10 blocks South along Palisade to Christ Hospital.

This will take effect in early April. Details are TBA. The current 2 zone fare of $2.55 might be increased to a 3 zone fare, again TBA. It will be a 9 month trial.

It\'s not an ideal solution as the 123 is already run at capacity, though NJ Transit says that the new schedule will be \"Robust\". It also may be of litle help to those who travel at of hours as the 123 currently only runs intil 1AM.

While not an ideal solution it\'s a step in the right direction. A hard won step that required a lot of effort from the RNA, the people at large, and our elected officials. Largely in response to the bus service (or disservice) issues throughout JC there\'s a new study being funded to evaluate the mass transit (or at least bus) situation in our area. The study likely won\'t begin until Autumn.

Since the new 123 route is a trial it\'s important that it be heavily utilized. If our neighbors in Union City find that the 123 is already packed when it gets to Union City they\'re going to start raising hell which will underscore the fact that we need a dedicated route. While the Jitneys or the 87 to Hoboken Path may be more convenient at times, we need to \"Ride it out\" on the 123 to make the point. Basically, Use it or Lose it.

I have found out that State Senator Sacco is suppose to be in attendance as well. Hopefully that means something positive will come from this meeting. Hope to see you all there!!!!!

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The Mayor did come to a meeting about this last August but he wasn't prepared and maybe felt ambushed.

If you want some more background info there's a long thread about it here

I'll be there.

Did the Meadowlands provide odds on Healy's appearance? Wonder if the odds will be like the Giants' odds in the Superbowl.

In my experience taking the bus home from Port, it is standing room only. Albeit, this may be a lot of Bayonners, but I have seen more and more people get off in JCH. Stopping this service will hurt the Heights at a time where this will be tough to overcome given the recent Real Estate issues here. If these elected officials give a damn about this city, then it would be wise to table this until things improve here and everywhere US in general.

Tuesday's meeting could be pivotal in the ongoing campaign to return proper bus service to this 1.5 mile stretch of the Heights. Lack of access = ghettoization. The situation isn't going to improve on its own. If you're the least bit concerned, come to this meeting and find out what you can do improve the situation.

The jitneys are unreliable, unaccountable, unregulated, and possibly unsafe. Red & Tan/Coach USA is increasingly unwilling to serve this kind of route and has always been unreliable. NJ Transit seems uninterested in geting involved at all.

A lot of us have been making noise with the City Council and Mayor's Office and it seems we're finally being listened to, not just heard.

We need a reliable, one seat, one fare Mass Transit solution for transportation to and from these neighborhods to Midtown Manhattan.

Again, If you're the least bit concerned, come to this meeting and find out what you can do improve the situation.

Jitneys only run during rush hour and are not on a schedule. This is not helpful to those who need reliable transportation or who travel off hours. There have also been many problems with the jitneys lacking proper insurance and maintenance.

Why not just ask the jitney vans to increase service to 42nd street.

The Riverview Neighborhood Association's monthly meeting, Tuesday, Feb. 12th at 7:30PM (178 Ogden Ave at Franklin) will focus on the need for direct NYC bus service on Palisade Avenue.
Confirmed guests include 32nd District Assemblyman Vincent Prieto, Jerramiah Healy - Mayor of Jersey City, Tom DeGise - Hudson County Executive, Steve Lipski - Ward C Councilman and Bill Gaughan - Ward D Councilman.

The meeting is open to the public and is an opportunity for residents to speak face-to-face with our elected officials about the need for direct NYC bus service on Palisade Avenue.