Asif, perhaps you are right. perhaps the accusation of "thin skinned" is right. Perhaps a combination of both. I just see and I am very scared of what's going on in this world today in the realm of politics. I'm scared of Presidents who go to war based on god's words to them. I'm also scared of the fact that one of our political parties, which used to stand for fiscal conservatism, something I believe in, has been taken over by the religious right, and wants to set back our social attitudes towards sex, sex education, birth control, and other women's rights back by decades. And I also don't like to be told what kind of person my being an atheist makes me.

Mscottc I am starting to believe your problem isn't religion. I think you are either surrounded by dolts....or something about you attracts the dolts. It could be a bit of both. So, what you should do is either find some decent people who will appreciate all of you respectfully even if they don't agree....or dude....make like Thoreau and find your own Walden Pond. Sheeeh!

I'm not a big fan of Hitchens, Dawkins or most other celebrity Atheists. Yes, I'm a fan of Carlin simply because he makes me laugh. But while I have my own opinion on the the reality of god, I really do understand why people need to believe. I understand that it helps them deal with issues on every level. If "god" helps you get through the day and it works for you, great. If god helps you be a better person, great. If god helps society, great.

I personally place my faith in humans, science, and technology. All do have their downsides, but to me, they're all real.

Yes, I guess I do feel the concept of god is a bit silly. On the other hand, people who care for me have told me they feel sad, pity or sorrow for me for my lack of belief. I'm okay with that tradeoff. I've got plenty of religious and spiritual friends who may joke with me about my atheism, but never condemn me for it. For those friends I'm grateful. Every human being is entitled to pull together their own experiences and form their own opinions.

All I've ever asked, as have most atheists that I'm aware of is simply don't force your religious traditions on us as individuals and on publicly owned institutions.

If by any chance I've personally offended someone, I apologize. However if you've told me I'm wrong for not believing or you've told me how you know I act and I've come back after you, well that's your problem.

I follow a group that espouses a "naturalistic worldview." In other words, a world without gods. They call themselves "The Brights." While I follow them, I can't promote them simply because I actually don't believe I'm brighter or smarter than someone who does believe in god, just of a differing opinion. I'm human, and quite frankly as a human, I know I can't know absolute truth, hence anything is possible. Some would argue that makes me an agnostic. Perhaps, but I really am sure that god doesn't exists, not undecided, which is the definition of "Agnostic."

Again, all of this is personal opinion, and till any of us can prove fact, that's all we are entitled to.

In the same article that Rorschach posted:

http://news.yahoo.com/rise-atheism-america-110700315.html

Dawkins has encouraged his followers to "ridicule" anyone who could believe in "an unforgiving control freak" and "a capriciously malevolent bully" like the God portrayed in the Old Testament. Dawkins's harsh approach, said Barbara J. King, an anthropologist at the College of William and Mary, has confirmed "some of the negative stereotypes associated with the nonreligious ? intolerance of the faithful, first and foremost.

The above mentioned is very much on display in this thread. I would vote for anyone who would stick to the constitution about the separation of church and state. Someone who sticks up for civil liberties(not violate them or target one community muslims, blacks...etc....), cares about the environment. And yes, I am a registered Republican but i voted several times against my own party. Did not vote for Bush twice. So, i don't care what your religious beliefs are.

Also, Yvonne. You should care more about the experience of your surgeon....not his beliefs. A recent study came out last year that.....quantified the number of surgeries done by doctors. If the doctor was within a certain threshold(not over or under, meaning not too many or too little) the chances of it being successful was great.

Quote:

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

That certainly worked out well.

Quote:

Never? Never ever ever? Even though superstitionism is on the decline? lulz.

Quote:

And I'm not sure I'd want someone operating on me who puts his faith in a myth, and not in the science that developed the knowledge and abilities to perform these procedures. I don't want a surgeon looking to a man who allegedly walked the earth 2000 years ago.

An atheist will never be elected to an higher political office. I mean President, Senate, or Governor. The masses do not trust anyone who doesn't pray to God for guidance. I personally would not want a surgeon operating on me without faith in God.

The rise of atheism in America

http://news.yahoo.com/rise-atheism-america-110700315.html

"a much larger share of the American public (19 percent) spurns organized religion in favor of a nondefined skepticism about faith. This group, sometimes collectively labeled the "Nones," is growing faster than any religious faith in the U.S."

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - Spock

Quote:
Stein, Joel both raised on the same faith but eventually ignored it.

This is getting exhausting, but here I go again!

"But here yet again you are presuming that almost all atheists feel you don't."
- I am presuming nothing. As I said, based on the comments on this board, your statements make no inclination at tolerance.

"All I've and many other atheist have asked for is simply that your religious beliefs not be made part of the government that belongs to all of us."
- actually, no, what you've "asked for simply" on this board is little, what you've done more of, is throw insults at people who don't conform to whatever your way of thinking is.

"So again I'll ask "Please don't presume to know what you really don't know."'
- and once again, i have presumed to know nothing, and, if you read my comments again, you'll see i've said nothing to assume I know anything about core beliefs of Atheists - only what my experience has been in trying to find them out. Nor have I said anything nasty about anyone with different opinions.

And as for "your religious beliefs"...
- well, you know nothing of my religious beliefs, so you should probably stop assuming.

Have a nice day!

Quote:

Actually Capn I believe you have every right to your beliefs. But here yet again you are presuming that almost all atheists feel you don't. You are entitled to believe in your god, just as I am entitled to not believe. All I've and many other atheist have asked for is simply that your religious beliefs not be made part of the government that belongs to all of us. So again I'll ask "Please don't presume to know what you really don't know."

Quote:

Wow Capn, that almost sounds like Faux News War on Xmas stuff.

Quote:

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun"

- Billy Joel

Quote:

You can believe whatever you want, in your home, in your church, or with others of similar beliefs. But my point is that if a grown adult speaks to me about "god" or religion, I will treat them the same way I would as if a grown adult were speaking to me about flying superheroes, talking mice, or coyote & roadrunner antics being based in reality. I see no difference honestly.

There is a saying: For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof is possible. However, I must add there were people like Edith Stein, an atheist who later became a canonized Saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Stein

Quote:

Most believers don?t have anyone literally ?telling them what to do,? but consider the irony that exactly like faith, atheism insists upon a supposed truth that cannot be verified and claims to know better.

But we humans are predisposed to dichotomies in practically every arena. It?s much easier to make a choice between what we identify as two opposites and belong to one group, than to navigate the subtleties of a complex issue and find our views incompatible with both established, but potentially nearsighted ideologies.

i certainly have never implied any need for anyone to be "extra tolerant to religious people that believe in god."

I only think that everyone should be allowed to have any beliefs they want - in god, the spaghetti monster, or superman.

But it seems that (other than Rorsch, who seems openminded), the Atheists on this board don't seem to believe that anyone who is religious has the right to have their own beliefs - and to not get ridiculed for them.

If a grown adult came to me and started talking about their belief that reindeer fly, a fat white bearded man squeezed down chimneys to deliver toys, or that mickey mouse was real, or that there was a person that could fly and wore a cape and his name was Superman, I would consider them completely crazy and walk away. So no, I don't have to be extra tolerant to religious people that believe in god. I consider them just as crazy as any other delusional people.

Quote:

Uh, sarcasm Capn Jon. We atheists are a disparate group. We have no Popes, bishops, mullahs or ayatollahs telling us what to do.

God please make the spam go away. Amen.

Quote:

Avoid the flammable glue...

Waitaminute... you Atheists stick together?? and all believe the same set of ideals, beliefs, and guiding principles? it almost sounds like.... ORGANIZED RELIGIONS!




(just a joke, please don't kill me!)

Well Asif, you know all us atheists stick together.

Come on Rorschach. You shouldn't be defending another atheist just because he is an atheist. You should defend him on the content of his ideas. You got to see that mscottc is the one with skin as thick as a wonton.....come on man. :)

Hi Rorschach!

On the contrary, if my skin was any thicker, it'd be.... leather?

I'm simply pointing out that instead of having a nice discussion, it's impossible for MScottC to have a discussion without throwing barbs and accusations... he constantly accuses everyone (or anyone even slightly religious) of "claiming to know" what he, as an Atheist believes or doesn't believe, and says they are wrong, band at the same time, he makes sweeping, harsh, and insulting comments and observations on religion as a whole.

And as I said before, I don't care at all about anyone's personal beliefs - I say to each his own as well!

Let me say first of all that I am a mellow but principled atheist. I have never ridiculed a religious person. To each their own.

I do find CapnJon's response to mscottc pretty funny. You must have a pretty thin skin CapnJon to be so easily insulted.

Quote:

?Militant atheism? sounds like another brand of dogma, the flip side to religious fundamentalism.

It?s not a big step to dismiss well-known religious figures like Harold Camping, Robert Schuller, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, or even Joseph Ratzinger, but what about far more insightful minds such as William James, Carl Jung, Fritjof Capra, Joseph Campbell, Albert Einstein, Stanislav Grof, or Carl Sagan?

Again, I agree with protesting the inappropriate role that others? religious beliefs sometimes play in our lives, but that?s a very different subject.

Hi MScottC

"Now since you seem to want insults. I'm sick and tired of religious wingnuts calling me immoral and heathen. I know not all god believers are wingnuts, but quite a few of you are. And you seem to be one who takes the cake. I've done nothing to punish you or your people, I've just stated facts and opinions. "

No thanks, I don't want insults, nor did I ask for them, just pointed out where you used them.

as far as "and you seem to be the one who takes the cake". This actually made me laugh out loud, because of ALL the names i've been called in my life, "religious wing nut" has never, EVER been one tossed my way! So, thanks for breaking new ground.

MScottC, i am not some hardcore religious person. I'm just a guy who was raised a certain way (just like you said you were in an earlier post I believe), and over the years researched and studied anything about all religions and belief systems I can find. It fascinates me. Human nature, drive, beliefs, motivations... i love to try and figure it all out. Do I go to Mass daily? Nope. Do I go to Mass weekly? Nope. Do I go on more than just holidays? Yep.

Have I ever said anything derogatory against Atheists? Nope. I believe anyone can believe anything they want - if they want spirituality, go for it, if they want no faith in any organized religious group, go for it, if they want to be a raging Koran thumper, go for it. I think everyone has the right to believe what they want, and I don't judge anyone because of it.

I never said you weren't a "whole person because I don't believe in your god." I could care less what you believe in.

What I care about is people spewing hateful words around - in any direction, under the guise of religion, or anything else. ANd your posts seem to be particularly vehement.

I'm sorry you're offended by religion "all the time". You must be pretty bothered, all the time. In my decades of studying and talking with and interacting with people of all religions and beliefs, I've never met a one who tried to force any belief on any other person (except for the Jehovah's Witnesses who ring my bell every weekend - don't they know I'm not interested!?!) So, I'm sorry that you have to deal with so many all the time.

As for an Atheist being President in the foreseeable lifetime - i think you're right, I don't think that will happen. We are still a ridiculously young country trying to figure out how to govern itself correctly. And given that so many of the early settlers came here for so many religious reasons (right or wrong), i think it's ingrained in the fiber of this country. Will it change, eventually, sometime soon? I doubt it. Do I care what religion someone is to hold higher office? Nope, doesn't affect me at all. But as for progress, did you know that in the military, on your ID (dog) tags, in the spot saved for religion, you are permitted to put Atheist, or Agnostic now? Yep. So, while it may be slow, progress is happening.

As for your insult to me about marriage / religion - if you re-read my post, i was not saying it belongs to religion, i was simply referencing the point that it has been taken over by religions as a "thing". So, while you were busy insulting me, we actually had the same point.

PS - Asif - I agree with you completely, it's not religion nor atheism that is the problem - it's MAN!

Once again, have a nice day!