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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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Part of the problem is not the production of the energy but the distribution. The U.S.'s electrical grid is old and a patchwork of independent transmission lines.

There are areas which are ripe for green energy production. South Dakota could produce a significant amount of wind power. But we can't efficiently get all that energy around the country.

A similar issue exists with transportation. It is not that difficult to build high speed rail. But we don't have the track infrastructure to use it. Even the Acela Express can only hit it's highest speed over a few miles of the Northeast Corridor.

The United States is decades behind other countries in these areas. It is shameful.

Posted on: 2010/8/18 17:08
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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And Norway is also almost completely independent of fossil fuels, even though she is one of the largest producers for the rest of the "burn, baby, burn world."


Alas, I am probably older than most here and I am weary of hearing for almost the last 50 years that "the cost of photovoltaics will soon fall to an economically feasible level." Maybe if my lifespan was a planned 1,000 years, I would be more sanguine.

But then the Chinese are rather remarkable at pulling off economic miracles aren't they?

And then of course, I don't know how many of you remember that nuclear was soon going to make electricity "too cheap to meter."(I knew a girl like that once...or was it a guy?)

On windmills...they don't stink so give them a chance. And they can't be any louder than the fan over Duane Reade. Although I did find it amusing that Bayonne was going green with a windmill to PUMP SEWAGE...something ironic there.

Anybody have a good recipe for Roast Canada Goose?

Posted on: 2010/8/17 14:03
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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the city of new york is killing thousands of birds (canadian geese), i'm sure its more than a wind turbine would.

i think the reason so many alternative energies are not quite there yet/not mature has a lot to do with big oil/coal/gas working very hard to keep it that way. they have hundreds of times more money and lobbyists than any clean energy companies do.

not all forms are immature, Iceland uses 100% renewable energy (in the form of geothermal and hydro power) for its electricity.

obviously that is dependent on its geographical location, but america has some potential in these areas as well.

other countries are better examples too, and some states have set their own goals such as California, to have 20% of its energy coming from renewables in a few years.

its just so blatantly obvious that fossil fuels are incredibly harmful for humans and the environment. onshore or offshore oil spills, hydraulic fracturing for natural gas seriously polluting water (after all, they are exempt from the safe drinking water act), gas pipeline explosions, refinery explosions, well explosions, mountaintop removal, coal mine disasters, toxic coal ash and sludge getting into water, people who live where this stuff happens getting seriously sick, not to mention the environmental damage.

there are more than enough reasons why any small step we can take towards renewables is a good idea. unfortunately we are still stuck with paid off politicians and corporations that would rather save half a million (spare change to them) than do the right thing to keep its workers (at the very least) safe.

Posted on: 2010/8/17 1:26
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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Quote:

Frinjc wrote:
There was some recent article about the cost of transportation being a important factor in wind turbine cost, the reason US production can remain competitive vs. China as compared to photovoltaic for ex. This suggests to make sure policies favor this industry.

Personally I am all for it, yes there will be some bird casualties but many countries have adopted this technology which indicates it is limited. The only concern is noise which implies a reasonable distance from inhabitants whether in land or see.
As for view, well I see turbines as a sign of progress, it doesn't bother me as much as mountain top removal for coal where the industry argument that they can restore the land is really a fairy tale for children.


Yes, love it or despise it, a turbine will undoubtedly come down someday, but those appalachian mountains and their streams will just be gone. I've paddled the Cheat River in WV many times, it's bed is red and it has no life at all from a "mine accident" 20 years ago.

For better and worse modern transportation cost are a negligible part of most goods. I had a discussion with the beer manager at Buy-Rite about buying local products, and he said even shipping a product that was mostly water around the world was less a cost factor than the hops. Wind turbines could be an exception given the blades are HUGE, but for solar components, it's just another commodity.

As for birds, turbines have a long way to go to catch up with house cats.

Posted on: 2010/8/16 22:38
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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There was some recent article about the cost of transportation being a important factor in wind turbine cost, the reason US production can remain competitive vs. China as compared to photovoltaic for ex. This suggests to make sure policies favor this industry.

Personally I am all for it, yes there will be some bird casualties but many countries have adopted this technology which indicates it is limited. The only concern is noise which implies a reasonable distance from inhabitants whether in land or see.
As for view, well I see turbines as a sign of progress, it doesn't bother me as much as mountain top removal for coal where the industry argument that they can restore the land is really a fairy tale for children.

Posted on: 2010/8/16 21:41
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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MDM wrote:
great! More financial white elephant that have the added bonus of killing lots of birds. Windmills are even worse than solar when it comes to delivering reliable, affordable source of energy.


What's your answer: "drill baby drill"?

I agree no alternative energy source today is mature, they're where the electronics industry was in the 60's, without affordable marketable products due to immature technology. The laser had existed for over a decade but without the electronic infrastructure to utilize it's unique capabilities. Get my drift?

Personally I think there will only be 1or 2 generations of industrial windpower, other more efficient forms like photovoltaic will render their complexity obsolete. But what we're in now is the 1st throes of breaking the deathgrip fossil fuel has on our civilization. You can't expect infant industries to really compete effectively without at least getting the government subsidies that the carbon industries get in many different ways.

Just wait till the Chinese REALLY ramp up the export market in solar and wind products. Think about it, that LED flashlight used to cost $30 and is now in the dollar store. How cheap will solar electric panels get? How far is down?

Posted on: 2010/8/16 19:11
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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great! More financial white elephant that have the added bonus of killing lots of birds. Windmills are even worse than solar when it comes to delivering reliable, affordable source of energy.

Posted on: 2010/8/16 17:57
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Re: Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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so a guy made a noturbine.com website and they stopped the plan? is that really all it took? would he rather it have been a huge gas pipeline?

this sounds good to me.
i think any use of wind energy is a step in the right direction.

Posted on: 2010/8/16 17:45
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Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
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August 16, 2010
Wind Turbines Are Coming to New York, and Not Just Offshore
By PATRICK McGEEHAN - The New York Times

For years, New York officials have envisioned powering the region from a set of huge wind turbines in the Atlantic Ocean off Long Island. But well before an offshore wind farm would be up and running, giant turbines may soon be spinning much closer to the city.

Within three years, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey hopes to have five wind towers, each more than 280 feet tall, operating on the west side of New York Harbor. Nearby, the City of Bayonne, N.J., plans to install an equally large turbine to power a sewage-pumping station. Meanwhile, the Department of Veterans Affairs is considering placing wind turbines on or near its hospitals in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

New York, it turns out, is a windy city, well suited for turning stiff breezes into electricity. If open space were not so rare, the city might be a prime spot for harnessing the wind, said Bill Baroni, deputy executive director of the Port Authority.

?Anybody who?s ever stood out at the dock in Weehawken waiting for a ferry just knows it?s a very windy area,? Mr. Baroni said. ?Apparently, it?s a pretty good place to put windmills.?

In 2008, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg announced his plan to use wind power to help reduce the city?s dependence on power plants that run on fossil fuels. So far, there are no large-scale efforts to harness the wind in the city, only token projects like the small turbines on the roof of an apartment building in the Bronx and a wind-powered electronic billboard for Coca-Cola in Times Square.

The city?s Economic Development Corporation has been studying the feasibility of putting turbines atop buildings, including a warehouse at the Hunts Point Cooperative Market in the Bronx. But the high hopes rest on a partnership, with utility companies and the New York Power Authority, that has designs on building a wind farm on about 65,000 acres of the Atlantic floor. The New York consortium said at the end of June that it would apply for a 25-year lease on the site, with hopes of generating as much as 700 megawatts of power there by 2016.

While city officials navigate the logistical and political shoals of that ambitious plan, other agencies are pressing ahead on more solid ground.

The Port Authority?s proposed project at Port Jersey on the border of Bayonne and Jersey City would be similar, in appearance and purpose, to a wind farm that was built at a sewage-treatment plant in Atlantic City five years ago. The authority is seeking suggestions from companies that might be interested in managing the project on how to set up the turbines. Mr. Baroni said it could be operating by 2013.

When the winds are high, the five turbines would produce as much as 7.5 megawatts ? enough to run at least 2,000 homes, he said. The authority plans to use the power generated to operate the container port there, then to feed the surplus energy into the local power grid, offsetting some of the authority?s consumption elsewhere.

?This is a commitment the Port Authority is making to reduce our carbon footprint and be better neighbors,? Mr. Baroni said. ?It will allow us to both save money and also be good for the environment. Somebody?s got to go first, and it?s going to be us.?

But the City of Bayonne may tap the wind quicker. Construction of a 262-foot-tall turbine has already begun at a plant operated by the city?s Municipal Utilities Authority. That $5.6 million tower, which would be the biggest wind turbine in New Jersey outside of Atlantic City, is expected to start producing more than enough energy to power the plant by September. The city plans to sell the excess power, saving at least $150,000 a year, said Stephen J. Gallo, executive director of the utilities authority.

?It will be iconic,? Mr. Gallo said. ?It will be the first windmill in New York Harbor. You?ll be able to see it from anywhere on the water.?

Both projects in Bayonne would help New Jersey achieve its stated goal of developing 200 megawatts of wind energy onshore by 2020. The state?s energy master plan also calls for producing 3,000 megawatts of wind energy offshore within 10 years.

In late 2008, the state?s Board of Public Utilities provided $12 million in rebates to three companies that are racing to build the first wind farm 12 miles or more off the coast of New Jersey. At the end of last month, the State Legislature approved a bill that would provide $100 million in tax credits to the developers of offshore wind farms.

But those deepwater projects would cost about twice as much to build as turbines on land, wind-energy developers say. Mr. Baroni declined to say how much the Port Authority expected to spend on the wind farm it plans to build at Port Jersey, but he said New Jersey had already offered $3 million toward the project. The Atlantic City turbines cost $12 million when they were erected in 2005 by Community Energy, a company based in Radnor, Pa.

Brent Beerley, executive vice president of Community Energy, said the Mid-Atlantic Coast was an attractive location for wind farms because the wind tended to be highest when demand for electricity was at its peak. The power produced also does not have to travel far to reach the consumers who pay the most for it, Mr. Beerley said.

?It?s a windy site in general, but unlike other wind farms, the time of day and the time of year that the wind blows strongest there matches when consumers use electricity,? he said. ?We have very strong summer winds and daytime winds.?

The wind power generated in Atlantic City has sold at ?relatively good? prices, and the project has exceeded its revenue targets so far, Mr. Beerley said. He added that the second important benefit that wind farms generate is federal tax credits, which attract big banks to invest in the projects.

Without that incentive, it would be difficult for private developers to finance a project like the one the Port Authority is proposing. Mr. Beerley, who said his company might bid to build the project, said it appeared to be feasible and potentially beneficial to the metropolitan area.

?It?s a real amount of power and it will offset a significant amount of fossil fuel use locally,? he said.

The idea is not universally popular, though. On July 8, the Board of Freeholders of Monmouth County, N.J., decided to oppose the construction of a wind turbine at a wastewater treatment plant in the Raritan Bay shore town of Union Beach after a resident fanned dissent with a Web site, www.noturbine.com.

And what about the appearance of five fans as tall as 30-story buildings forming a swirling backdrop to the Statue of Liberty?

Mr. Baroni, a former state senator from central New Jersey, said people actually liked to gaze at the big turbines. In Atlantic City, he said, casino-hotel guests often requests rooms that offer a view of the wind farm atop the sewage plant, instead of the ocean and beach.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/nyregion/16turbines.html

Posted on: 2010/8/16 16:57
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