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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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Transparency is a relatively new phenomena. Until recently, most institutions, including government, schools, politics, corporations were immune from transparency and scrutiny. Consequently, many people have suffered. The additional focus on the Catholic Church is a result of it's unique global reach and belief that religious organizations were better behaved and beyond human flaw. That in conjunction with the Church's role in disbursing judgment and penance cultivated a sense of anger.

Posted on: 9/9 16:05
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Without the "benefit" of a Roman Catholic upbringing, particularly in ethnically traditional parishes where God's law is paramount and the salvation of your eternal soul is one's only focus, it will be difficult for the "regular guy" to fully understand how profound and omnipotent the church's power was/is in the day-to-day life of a pious parishioner.

You just didn't talk about scandal anyway, much less anything that was going on in the church. You'd never be believed - not by your parish leaders, not by your elders, not by the police, et al. Priests in my day held the ultimate power and judgment in one's life - particularly in our blue collar neighborhood. They could, and did, get away with everything. That's pretty heady stuff that gets passed down, priestly generation to priestly generation.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely - and here we are in 2018.

The numbers of victims (children, adolescents, men, women, fellow priests/nuns) are ridiculously under-reported. This has been going on forever.

Funny, my little guy and I were just studying the history of the system of Catholic pardons/indulgences and how that catapulted reformation efforts centuries ago.

It's time for a new kind of reformation.


Posted on: 9/9 13:23
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According to the Pennsylvania report, priest abuse of grown women even higher rate than children.
- https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cath ... -grown-women-too?ref=home

And ultra-conservative element in Catholic church using this as excuse to bring down Pope Francis, when abuse has been rampant as well during conservative Pope Benedict's term, and readily evident and covered up in conservative dioceses too.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-plot ... own-pope-francis?ref=home



Posted on: 9/9 12:11
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"Still, it was only a small minority who were true pedophiles . . . ."

Posted on: 9/9 11:56
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Quote:
“I said to one of them, ‘Why didn’t you just use a condom?’ And he said, ‘Because birth control is against the law of the church.’ ”


I totally missed that gem. Thanks for quoting.

Posted on: 9/9 10:27
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K-Lo2 wrote:
Not gay, not straight...just glib callous psychopaths. Weed out the psychopaths first.

“You can’t treat heterosexuality,” he said. “You can’t treat homosexuality. You can’t treat pedophilia.” You can make them aware of the damage they are causing, but psychopaths are incredibly hard to treat. They honestly believe a 5-year-old is in love with them.

“It was a surprise for me to see how many psychopaths I met in the priesthood,” Dr. Lothstein said. “Glib, callous, could say anything to you and be charming.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/10/us/10beliefs.html



"...And as the therapists continue to discover, no therapeutic technique can heal a church of all its pathology. “And I treated half a dozen priests who fathered children,” Dr. Lothstein said. “I treated priests who had two children. I treated priests who got women pregnant and got them abortions.

“I said to one of them, ‘Why didn’t you just use a condom?’ And he said, ‘Because birth control is against the law of the church.’ ”

(Excellent article - thank you for sharing.)

Posted on: 9/9 10:11
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Not gay, not straight...just glib callous psychopaths. Weed out the psychopaths first.

“You can’t treat heterosexuality,” he said. “You can’t treat homosexuality. You can’t treat pedophilia.” You can make them aware of the damage they are causing, but psychopaths are incredibly hard to treat. They honestly believe a 5-year-old is in love with them.

“It was a surprise for me to see how many psychopaths I met in the priesthood,” Dr. Lothstein said. “Glib, callous, could say anything to you and be charming.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/10/us/10beliefs.html

Posted on: 9/9 9:53
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It is these psychologists that treat these priests and say they are cured. You know what happens,? These cured priests re-offend again. The church has been paying big bucks to victims and their only excuse is - well the pyschologists said they are cured.

It is the reason why gay men cannot enter the seminary, unfortunately, this rule is not followed, the last I read the Church has paid out $4 billion. I will take the word over people who see what is going on the church, not the word of psychologists. The Catholic Church is the gravy train for these psychologists.

Posted on: 9/8 21:51
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Posted on: 9/8 20:14
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It was not consent if rape was involved. Yes, men in the seminary were raped and some committed suicide. Father Paul John Kalchik was raped as a child of 7 by a neighbor and again by a priest while in seminary. He left seminary but returned many years later because it is his calling.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/ar ... ests-plea-to-pope-francis

Posted on: 9/8 14:44
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100% Correct.


Quote:

esp123 wrote:
Mao-
Why are you so hung up on sex between consenting adults, if they are fully “consenting” and “adults”?

If it’s the case of assault, rape, or sexual harassment where someone like McCarrick who Yvonne says was using his position to pressure, then that’s not consentual. But hello, predators in the world are just as likely to be heterosexual, so you both focusing on the orientation of homosexuality, rather than the abusive behavior, IS intellectual dishonesty and homophobia.

If it’s the case of pedophilia and underage children as victims, then they are not adults, so again lack of true consent.

For your sake, I hope it is disingenuousness about your underlying motivations, rather than absence of cognitive ability to comprehend these really not difficult to understand distinctions. Remember, consenting adults. Victims who are underage or those who are assaulted or those who are in an employee or position of less power than the abuser by definition are not consenting and/or adults.

In the case of the Catholic church, gay priests who are sexually activel and yet the next day are preaching that premarital sex and homosexuality will damn you to hell, may be hypocrites. But in the case of those who are gay and enter the Catholic priesthood because they feel can’t freely live who they are otherwise within the Catholic community says more about the shortcomings of the fundamentalist Catholic community and doctrine.

And calling out the hypocrisy is very different from denouncing priests because of their sexual orientation and making this abuse crisis about that. It is the hypocrisy, the lies, the predatory behavior, and the covering up for predatory behavior that can legitimately be criticized, without making this abuse scandal the excuse to demonize gays and blame abusive behavior on sexual orientation.

Mao and his fundamentalist Tridentine latin-mass, Pope Francis-hating, far-from-mainstream Catholic brethren are clearly trying to use this scandal as a way to purge more mainstream Catholic leaders.

Posted on: 9/8 11:36
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Mao
Why are you so hung up on sex between consenting adults, if they are fully “consenting” and “adults”?

If it’s the case of assault, rape, or sexual harassment where someone like McCarrick who Yvonne says was using his position to pressure, then that’s not consentual. But hello, predators in the world are just as likely to be heterosexual, so you both focusing on the orientation of homosexuality, rather than the abusive behavior, IS intellectual dishonesty and homophobia.

If it’s the case of pedophilia and underage children, then they are not adults, so again lack of true consent.

For your sake, I hope it is disingenuousness about your underlying motivations, rather than absence of cognitive ability to comprehend these really not difficult to understand distinctions. Remember, consenting adults. Victims who are underage or those who are assaulted or those who are in an employee or position of less power than the abuser by definition are not consenting and/or adults.

In the case of the Catholic church, gay priests who are sexually activel and yet the next day are preaching that premarital sex and homosexuality will damn you to hell, may be hypocrites. But in the case of those who are gay and enter the Catholic priesthood because they feel can’t freely live who they are otherwise within the Catholic community says more about the shortcomings of the fundamentalist Catholic community and doctrine.

And calling out the hypocrisy is very different from denouncing priests because of their sexual orientation and making this abuse crisis about that. It is the hypocrisy, the lies, the predatory behavior, and the covering up for predatory behavior that can legitimately be criticized, without making this abuse scandal the excuse to demonize gays and blame abusive behavior on sexual orientation.

Mao and his fundamentalist Tridentine latin-mass, Pope Francis-hating, far-from-mainstream Catholic brethren are clearly trying to use this scandal as a way to purge more mainstream Catholic leaders.

Posted on: 9/8 11:30
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I said hearsay NOT heresy.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I am looking forward to the raids in NY State and NJ, so what you call 'heresy' will turn into prison time. I want justice for the victims and church cleaned from predatory priests.

Posted on: 9/8 8:43
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Pedophilia, is a made up term,


It’s not.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
these priest do not have age limits, it is whatever is available.


That’s the definition of a predator, not a homosexual.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
That means all the gay icons like the late Harvey Milk engaged in pedophilia, too.


Milk was not “all the gay icons.” Nice try.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
No one wants to admit the cause is gay men in the priesthood.


Because that’s not the cause, no matter how many basement conspiracy theorists you subscribe to.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I actually saw a video years ago on EWTN, the Catholic network on men who decided to lead chaste lives through the program Courage, they all admitted, they were sexually assaulted as teens by adult men.


Interesting, but that doesn’t support your case.

So are you done? Or are you going to repeat this nonsense again tomorrow?

Posted on: 9/7 23:46
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Pedophilia, is a made up term, these priest do not have age limits, it is whatever is available. That means all the gay icons like the late Harvey Milk engaged in pedophilia, too. No one wants to admit the cause is gay men in the priesthood. I actually saw a video years ago on EWTN, the Catholic network on men who decided to lead chaste lives through the program Courage, they all admitted, they were sexually assaulted as teens by adult men.

Posted on: 9/7 22:47
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Posted on: 9/7 22:10
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Lifenews isn't worth the ink spent on it.

Posted on: 9/7 20:32
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Posted on: 9/7 15:52
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As Abraham Lincoln famously said: "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant.

Posted on: 9/7 15:05
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I am looking forward to the raids in NY State and NJ, so what you call 'heresy' will turn into prison time. I want justice for the victims and church cleaned from predatory priests.

Posted on: 9/7 14:29
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Yvonne,

As an actual practicing attorney, I could assure you that the vast majority of that falls squarely in the definition of hearsay.

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:



Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant. Church Militant gets their information for priests, seminarians and even some bishops. Lately, their information has come prosecutors. The people at that website has worked as professional reporters in the secular media and have contacts with law enforcements. Then, there is the testimony of Alice Von Hilebrand (who is still living), who spoke to Bella Dodd who said in the 1920s and 1930s she recruited 1100 men to enter the seminary. Dodd said she belonged to the Communist Party. Stalin request that she place two types of men in the seminary, men with no faith and homosexual men. Bella Dodd also spoke before Congress on this and there are books written about this subject. As these men become bishops, they were looking for other homosexual men, the reason for the South American connection of seminarians who were kicked out and found places in the US. Personally, I am looking forward to the investigation of NJ. Sexual payments were made by the Archdioceses of Newark and Metuchen. I want the truth, I don't care about agendas.

Posted on: 9/7 12:26
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Dear Esp:

I do not believe that I am promiting a "a bigoted world view with fallacious reasoning [with] and intellectual dishonesty.

Civilization is not falling because of the normalization of abortion, contraception, extra marital sex and homosexual sex. However, it is transitioning to something radically different than Christian Civilization which is now in its twiglight.

You did not refute Wilker's assertion that the taboo against sex with children is the product of Christianity. You seem to be very strongly oppossed to pederasty so you at least have that in common with historic Christianity.

I guess that in the new paradigm, everything might be permitted except for sex with children. However, someone sent me this alarming clip.
Someone sent me this- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4AUzsGbfE#action=share It's a TED talk in favor of normalizing pedophilia.

Cheers,

Mao

Posted on: 9/7 11:44
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Quote:

Sutherland wrote:
It's hate because you're making facts up. You have no proof of anything you've alleged. People only make up bad facts about others out of hate.


Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant. Church Militant gets their information for priests, seminarians and even some bishops. Lately, their information has come prosecutors. The people at that website has worked as professional reporters in the secular media and have contacts with law enforcements. Then, there is the testimony of Alice Von Hilebrand (who is still living), who spoke to Bella Dodd who said in the 1920s and 1930s she recruited 1100 men to enter the seminary. Dodd said she belonged to the Communist Party. Stalin request that she place two types of men in the seminary, men with no faith and homosexual men. Bella Dodd also spoke before Congress on this and there are books written about this subject. As these men become bishops, they were looking for other homosexual men, the reason for the South American connection of seminarians who were kicked out and found places in the US. Personally, I am looking forward to the investigation of NJ. Sexual payments were made by the Archdioceses of Newark and Metuchen. I want the truth, I don't care about agendas.

Posted on: 9/7 11:39
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It's hate because you're making facts up. You have no proof of anything you've alleged. People only make up bad facts about others out of hate.

Posted on: 9/7 10:52
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What does hate has to do with facts? Were you in the Archdiocese of Newark? If you were then you knew about McCarrick. It is the reason why 6 seminarians/priests (I am not sure of the exact ratio) were forbidden to speak to the press by Cardinal Tobin. They want to spill the beans on sexual abuse of adult men.

Posted on: 9/7 10:46
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Yvonne, I am not clueless. I was in the seminary during a part of McCarrick's term as Archbishop of the Newark Archdiocese. So I probably know more than most. You're the one who is clueless, letting your hate and the media distort your perspective.

Posted on: 9/7 9:46
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You are absolutely clueless, this information has been coming out, yes, seminarians have been rape. McCarrick is know as "Uncle Ted" has taken seminarians to his beach house with one bedroom and there has been sexual assaults. He is their boss, he determines if they are priests. Every case is different, but it is, he gets them drunk at the beach house and takes advantages of them. McCarrick is not the only one. Like I said before, I don't believe in the term pedophilia, victims ranged from 11 to their 20s. These are predator priests who are homosexuals. Actually, since the 2002 Dallas on the youth, there has been more attacks on seminarians who are adults than minors. The Dallas Charter on sex abuse did not include adult sex abuse.

Posted on: 9/7 9:37
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What seminarians have been raped? Do you have any proof beyond an allegation? The claims were sexual assault not rape. So your over exaggerations of the claims only serve to further discredit you. Furthermore, there is no ruling that anyone has raped anyone. Settlements are entered into to save money, they are not an admission of guilt. The smaller the settlement, the less credible the victim's claim. They're deemed nuisance claims. Three former priests were given very small settlements. Desmond Rossi was paid $35,000 on his 10 year old claim that a fellow seminarian groped him after a night of drinking by both of them. Naturally, the news embellished the facts. Two gut settlements for something that happened with McCarrick. The particular claims we do not know McCarrick invited seminarians to his beach house where he had them sleep in the same bed with him. He would also change in front of them. I don't remember reading anywhere that he made any of them even indulge him with oral sex or that he groped them. Certainly, the sleeping in the same bed with him is improper, but it's not rape nor is it sexual assault. I was in the seminary for the Newark Archdiocese during the McCarrick years. Everyone knew he was taking some seminarians to his beach house. Some of these guys were guys I knew. But no one then ever said at least to me, that he as much as touched them. So when you say rape, you're discrediting yourself.

Posted on: 9/7 9:04
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The abusers are at fault. And the church is at fault. If any other enterprise covered up and abetted abuse to this extent, the ringleaders would be in jail and the enterprise would be shut down.

Posted on: 9/7 8:58
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Quote:

Sutherland wrote:
I also suspect Mao's a former seminarian or religious, (not a Jesuit). Probably a Franciscan (OFM) maybe diocesan. I imagine he's never actually practiced law.

Despite his knowledge, his logic goes far afield of reality. It's too much of a stretch to associate ancient Greek and Christian philosophy to a contemporary crises, at least they way Mao does. The history of scandal in the church goes beyond sex and includes more financial, especially from the middle (dark) ages.

The association of perspectives on sexual orientation from 500 years ago or more to managing abuse today is as useful and applicable as wearing a snorkle coat on a rainy day in July.

Homophobia is more a cause of the Church's crises than the solution. It deteriorates ones' self esteem, leaving them emotionally arrested. This is more likely the cause of the problem than Mao's far stretching hypothesis about Aristophanes' reach to contemporary mores.




Youth as well as seminarians are rape and you are blaming homophobia. That is like blaming the victim of a robbery for having money in his wallet. Heaven forbid the blame goes to the person commiting the crime.

Posted on: 9/7 8:41
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