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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
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Mao
Why are you so hung up on sex between consenting adults, if they are fully “consenting” and “adults”?

If it’s the case of assault, rape, or sexual harassment where someone like McCarrick who Yvonne says was using his position to pressure, then that’s not consentual. But hello, predators in the world are just as likely to be heterosexual, so you both focusing on the orientation of homosexuality, rather than the abusive behavior, IS intellectual dishonesty and homophobia.

If it’s the case of pedophilia and underage children, then they are not adults, so again lack of true consent.

For your sake, I hope it is disingenuousness about your underlying motivations, rather than absence of cognitive ability to comprehend these really not difficult to understand distinctions. Remember, consenting adults. Victims who are underage or those who are assaulted or those who are in an employee or position of less power than the abuser by definition are not consenting and/or adults.

In the case of the Catholic church, gay priests who are sexually activel and yet the next day are preaching that premarital sex and homosexuality will damn you to hell, may be hypocrites. But in the case of those who are gay and enter the Catholic priesthood because they feel can’t freely live who they are otherwise within the Catholic community says more about the shortcomings of the fundamentalist Catholic community and doctrine.

And calling out the hypocrisy is very different from denouncing priests because of their sexual orientation and making this abuse crisis about that. It is the hypocrisy, the lies, the predatory behavior, and the covering up for predatory behavior that can legitimately be criticized, without making this abuse scandal the excuse to demonize gays and blame abusive behavior on sexual orientation.

Mao and his fundamentalist Tridentine latin-mass, Pope Francis-hating, far-from-mainstream Catholic brethren are clearly trying to use this scandal as a way to purge more mainstream Catholic leaders.

Posted on: 9/8 11:30
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I said hearsay NOT heresy.

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Yvonne wrote:
I am looking forward to the raids in NY State and NJ, so what you call 'heresy' will turn into prison time. I want justice for the victims and church cleaned from predatory priests.

Posted on: 9/8 8:43
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Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
Pedophilia, is a made up term,


It’s not.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
these priest do not have age limits, it is whatever is available.


That’s the definition of a predator, not a homosexual.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
That means all the gay icons like the late Harvey Milk engaged in pedophilia, too.


Milk was not “all the gay icons.” Nice try.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
No one wants to admit the cause is gay men in the priesthood.


Because that’s not the cause, no matter how many basement conspiracy theorists you subscribe to.

Quote:

Yvonne wrote:
I actually saw a video years ago on EWTN, the Catholic network on men who decided to lead chaste lives through the program Courage, they all admitted, they were sexually assaulted as teens by adult men.


Interesting, but that doesn’t support your case.

So are you done? Or are you going to repeat this nonsense again tomorrow?

Posted on: 9/7 23:46
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Pedophilia, is a made up term, these priest do not have age limits, it is whatever is available. That means all the gay icons like the late Harvey Milk engaged in pedophilia, too. No one wants to admit the cause is gay men in the priesthood. I actually saw a video years ago on EWTN, the Catholic network on men who decided to lead chaste lives through the program Courage, they all admitted, they were sexually assaulted as teens by adult men.

Posted on: 9/7 22:47
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Posted on: 9/7 22:10
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Lifenews isn't worth the ink spent on it.

Posted on: 9/7 20:32
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Posted on: 9/7 15:52
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As Abraham Lincoln famously said: "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

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Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant.

Posted on: 9/7 15:05
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I am looking forward to the raids in NY State and NJ, so what you call 'heresy' will turn into prison time. I want justice for the victims and church cleaned from predatory priests.

Posted on: 9/7 14:29
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Yvonne,

As an actual practicing attorney, I could assure you that the vast majority of that falls squarely in the definition of hearsay.

Yvonne wrote:
Quote:



Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant. Church Militant gets their information for priests, seminarians and even some bishops. Lately, their information has come prosecutors. The people at that website has worked as professional reporters in the secular media and have contacts with law enforcements. Then, there is the testimony of Alice Von Hilebrand (who is still living), who spoke to Bella Dodd who said in the 1920s and 1930s she recruited 1100 men to enter the seminary. Dodd said she belonged to the Communist Party. Stalin request that she place two types of men in the seminary, men with no faith and homosexual men. Bella Dodd also spoke before Congress on this and there are books written about this subject. As these men become bishops, they were looking for other homosexual men, the reason for the South American connection of seminarians who were kicked out and found places in the US. Personally, I am looking forward to the investigation of NJ. Sexual payments were made by the Archdioceses of Newark and Metuchen. I want the truth, I don't care about agendas.

Posted on: 9/7 12:26
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Dear Esp:

I do not believe that I am promiting a "a bigoted world view with fallacious reasoning [with] and intellectual dishonesty.

Civilization is not falling because of the normalization of abortion, contraception, extra marital sex and homosexual sex. However, it is transitioning to something radically different than Christian Civilization which is now in its twiglight.

You did not refute Wilker's assertion that the taboo against sex with children is the product of Christianity. You seem to be very strongly oppossed to pederasty so you at least have that in common with historic Christianity.

I guess that in the new paradigm, everything might be permitted except for sex with children. However, someone sent me this alarming clip.
Someone sent me this- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4AUzsGbfE#action=share It's a TED talk in favor of normalizing pedophilia.

Cheers,

Mao

Posted on: 9/7 11:44
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Quote:

Sutherland wrote:
It's hate because you're making facts up. You have no proof of anything you've alleged. People only make up bad facts about others out of hate.


Actually, I have given facts, there was the letter from the website from a seminary then there was the link from Church Militant. Church Militant gets their information for priests, seminarians and even some bishops. Lately, their information has come prosecutors. The people at that website has worked as professional reporters in the secular media and have contacts with law enforcements. Then, there is the testimony of Alice Von Hilebrand (who is still living), who spoke to Bella Dodd who said in the 1920s and 1930s she recruited 1100 men to enter the seminary. Dodd said she belonged to the Communist Party. Stalin request that she place two types of men in the seminary, men with no faith and homosexual men. Bella Dodd also spoke before Congress on this and there are books written about this subject. As these men become bishops, they were looking for other homosexual men, the reason for the South American connection of seminarians who were kicked out and found places in the US. Personally, I am looking forward to the investigation of NJ. Sexual payments were made by the Archdioceses of Newark and Metuchen. I want the truth, I don't care about agendas.

Posted on: 9/7 11:39
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It's hate because you're making facts up. You have no proof of anything you've alleged. People only make up bad facts about others out of hate.

Posted on: 9/7 10:52
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What does hate has to do with facts? Were you in the Archdiocese of Newark? If you were then you knew about McCarrick. It is the reason why 6 seminarians/priests (I am not sure of the exact ratio) were forbidden to speak to the press by Cardinal Tobin. They want to spill the beans on sexual abuse of adult men.

Posted on: 9/7 10:46
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Yvonne, I am not clueless. I was in the seminary during a part of McCarrick's term as Archbishop of the Newark Archdiocese. So I probably know more than most. You're the one who is clueless, letting your hate and the media distort your perspective.

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You are absolutely clueless, this information has been coming out, yes, seminarians have been rape. McCarrick is know as "Uncle Ted" has taken seminarians to his beach house with one bedroom and there has been sexual assaults. He is their boss, he determines if they are priests. Every case is different, but it is, he gets them drunk at the beach house and takes advantages of them. McCarrick is not the only one. Like I said before, I don't believe in the term pedophilia, victims ranged from 11 to their 20s. These are predator priests who are homosexuals. Actually, since the 2002 Dallas on the youth, there has been more attacks on seminarians who are adults than minors. The Dallas Charter on sex abuse did not include adult sex abuse.

Posted on: 9/7 9:37
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What seminarians have been raped? Do you have any proof beyond an allegation? The claims were sexual assault not rape. So your over exaggerations of the claims only serve to further discredit you. Furthermore, there is no ruling that anyone has raped anyone. Settlements are entered into to save money, they are not an admission of guilt. The smaller the settlement, the less credible the victim's claim. They're deemed nuisance claims. Three former priests were given very small settlements. Desmond Rossi was paid $35,000 on his 10 year old claim that a fellow seminarian groped him after a night of drinking by both of them. Naturally, the news embellished the facts. Two gut settlements for something that happened with McCarrick. The particular claims we do not know McCarrick invited seminarians to his beach house where he had them sleep in the same bed with him. He would also change in front of them. I don't remember reading anywhere that he made any of them even indulge him with oral sex or that he groped them. Certainly, the sleeping in the same bed with him is improper, but it's not rape nor is it sexual assault. I was in the seminary for the Newark Archdiocese during the McCarrick years. Everyone knew he was taking some seminarians to his beach house. Some of these guys were guys I knew. But no one then ever said at least to me, that he as much as touched them. So when you say rape, you're discrediting yourself.

Posted on: 9/7 9:04
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The abusers are at fault. And the church is at fault. If any other enterprise covered up and abetted abuse to this extent, the ringleaders would be in jail and the enterprise would be shut down.

Posted on: 9/7 8:58
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Quote:

Sutherland wrote:
I also suspect Mao's a former seminarian or religious, (not a Jesuit). Probably a Franciscan (OFM) maybe diocesan. I imagine he's never actually practiced law.

Despite his knowledge, his logic goes far afield of reality. It's too much of a stretch to associate ancient Greek and Christian philosophy to a contemporary crises, at least they way Mao does. The history of scandal in the church goes beyond sex and includes more financial, especially from the middle (dark) ages.

The association of perspectives on sexual orientation from 500 years ago or more to managing abuse today is as useful and applicable as wearing a snorkle coat on a rainy day in July.

Homophobia is more a cause of the Church's crises than the solution. It deteriorates ones' self esteem, leaving them emotionally arrested. This is more likely the cause of the problem than Mao's far stretching hypothesis about Aristophanes' reach to contemporary mores.




Youth as well as seminarians are rape and you are blaming homophobia. That is like blaming the victim of a robbery for having money in his wallet. Heaven forbid the blame goes to the person commiting the crime.

Posted on: 9/7 8:41
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I also suspect Mao's a former seminarian or religious, (not a Jesuit). Probably a Franciscan (OFM) maybe diocesan. I imagine he's never actually practiced law.

Despite his knowledge, his logic goes far afield of reality. It's too much of a stretch to associate ancient Greek and Christian philosophy to a contemporary crises, at least they way Mao does. The history of scandal in the church goes beyond sex and includes more financial, especially from the middle (dark) ages.

The association of perspectives on sexual orientation from 500 years ago or more to managing abuse today is as useful and applicable as wearing a snorkle coat on a rainy day in July.

Homophobia is more a cause of the Church's crises than the solution. It deteriorates ones' self esteem, leaving them emotionally arrested. This is more likely the cause of the problem than Mao's far stretching hypothesis about Aristophanes' reach to contemporary mores.




Posted on: 9/7 8:28
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esp123 wrote:
Wow. Mao may be more articulate, but he and Yvonne really are cut from the same cloth.

Both cite sources supporting their position, ignorantly or disingenuously offered by Yvonne and Mao as being even near reliable authorities, when their sources are no where near that.

Yvonne’s YouTube video is produced by https://www.churchmilitant.com/ an ultra-right wing not at all mainstream Catholic group.

Mao’s source, Benjamin Wiker, is a fringe nut, an individual who like Mao may be articulate, but nonetheless hides simple-minded thinking and bigotry better than those less educated.

Benjamim Wiker thinks Darwinism is against natural law. From wiki: “John M. Lynch in a review for Wiker’s book The Darwin Myth in the Journal of the History of Biology has dismissed Wiker's claims as irrational.[5] In a review, Sander Gliboff, a Professor of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University, has written that Wiker's biographical interpretations of Darwin "verge on fantasy".[6]

Benjamin Wiker is also written up in the blog Encyclopedia of American Loons, lol. https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/415-benjamin-wiker.html

@ Mao – reading some of your prior posts, you’re a lawyer and yet cite an article by Wikers to make your argument? Another example that education is no guarantee of common sense or critical thinking, I guess.


For the information, Church Militant is not the only Catholic source saying this, there are many others. You do not like the facts so like others, let's attack the source instead of hearing the truth. The truth is - gay men are in the church who are attacking youth as well as other men. This is what Stalin told Bella Dodd to do in the 1920s and 1930s because Stalin said you cannot attack the church on the outside but only on the inside. I just found out that Bella Dodd did speak before Congress about Communist in the US. She also wrote on this subject.
https://www.amazon.com/Aa-1025-Memoirs ... bRopM1nL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Posted on: 9/6 23:14
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I meant *gentle* (phrase you used) - not "softly"

Posted on: 9/6 20:24
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Mao –
Whether some historian with a fundamentalist-worldview pronounces that the ancient world was against homosexuality ‘softly’ or not, you're suggesting if modern society views gay people as normal human beings that this will somehow lead to the fall of civilization, bc that would lead to the slippery slope to condoning child abuse?!?

Honestly, that seems nuts, verging on hysteria, but that's the inference you were attempting to promote by first posting Ben Wikers article, and when someone calls you out on it, you try to deflect with more blah, blah, blah & high-brow allusions and professorial language that basically just masks that underneath it all, youre promote a bigoted world view with fallacious reasoning and intellectual dishonesty. That's not what I would call trying to advance the conversation.


Posted on: 9/6 19:24
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Dear Esp123:

Ad hominems are really not a way of advancing a conversation.

I was aware the Wilker critiques Darwinism. Natural Selection is a very helpful and productive hypothesis. But is one a loon to point out that it has limitations and that it is erroneous to make it a religion? There are issues about whether random natural selection could account for the existing bio diversity given the known existence of earth. More worrisome still, recall that Social Darwinism had some very evil spawn that supported racism, eugenics, and helped support Nazi ideology.

But anyway, you deflect from the topic at hand.

You are correct that I am a lawyer, but my undergrad degree is in Latin and Ancient Greek and teach Latin as an adjunct in college now. . I also did some work towards a Masters Degree in Classics.

I do think that Wilker overstates the acceptance of homosexuality in the ancient world. But so did most classics professors at Columbia University where I studied. The Classics department was rabidly anti Christian, seeing it as the force that had destroyed the ancient world. Several of the professors were openly homosexual. But even the heterosexuals liked to play up homosexuality in the ancient world as a model for ours.

In fact, the actual reality was more complex. While it was only the Jews (and later the Christians) who abhorred homosexuality, many others sort of merely found it distasteful or unpleasant. I think Marcus Aurelius might have tried to outlaw it. Aristophanes ridiculed all homosexual relationships including pederasty in manner that today would be termed homophobic. But it was a gentle homophobia compared to the raging of Leviticus or St. Paul.

I googled and got this paper by a college student which shows some of the complexity of the ancient world. https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/18 ... 1/James_Gentry_thesis.pdf

Anyway, there are two current trends that make it all complicated. On the one hand, there is a trend to sexualize childhood and to assume that children have a right to sex lives. That is the premise of most sex education in schools. It is brutal and anti Christian and treats any reservation about your little one' orgiastic life as being- how would you term it- loony. A normally far left coworker was having a meltdown yesterday because her 11 year old daughter's best friend had announced she was a Lesbian. My coworker is behind the times.

The other trend is to emphasis a rigid type of consent to sexual activity e g the Antioch code. How this will end up and where the age of consent will land will be a thing to watch.

I think there are psychological bases apart from Jewish or Christian teachings that could keep age of consent laws in place. Let's hope so!

Yours,

Mao


Posted on: 9/6 17:02
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Wow. Mao may be more articulate, but he and Yvonne really are cut from the same cloth.

Both cite sources supporting their position, ignorantly or disingenuously offered by Yvonne and Mao as being even near reliable authorities, when their sources are no where near that.

Yvonne’s YouTube video is produced by https://www.churchmilitant.com/ an ultra-right wing not at all mainstream Catholic group.

Mao’s source, Benjamin Wiker, is a fringe nut, an individual who like Mao may be articulate, but nonetheless hides simple-minded thinking and bigotry better than those less educated.

Benjamim Wiker thinks Darwinism is against natural law. From wiki: “John M. Lynch in a review for Wiker’s book The Darwin Myth in the Journal of the History of Biology has dismissed Wiker's claims as irrational.[5] In a review, Sander Gliboff, a Professor of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University, has written that Wiker's biographical interpretations of Darwin "verge on fantasy".[6]

Benjamin Wiker is also written up in the blog Encyclopedia of American Loons, lol. https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/415-benjamin-wiker.html

@ Mao – reading some of your prior posts, you’re a lawyer and yet cite an article by Wikers to make your argument? Another example that education is no guarantee of common sense or critical thinking, I guess.

Posted on: 9/6 15:57

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:12:15
Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:16:42
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Posted on: 9/6 14:49
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From a Moral-Historical Perspective, This Crisis is Worse Than You Realize. There is nothing, nothing, that undermines the authority of the Church more quickly and thoroughly than this devilish marriage of scandal and hypocrisy.


by
Benjamin Wiker

Contrary to Cardinal Donald Wuerl’s early and oft-quoted assessment, the Catholic Church is in fact facing a “massive, massive crisis.” Greater clarity about the nature of this crisis can be had by looking at the larger moral-historical perspective.

There is only one reason why pedophilia is even a moral issue today: historically, the Catholic Church made it one. Sex with boys and girls, but especially boys, was an accepted part of ancient Greek and Roman culture, the culture into which Christ Himself, and hence the Church, was born. Christianity rejected this common pagan sexual practice as a distortion of sexuality, and evangelized accordingly. If it were not for the success of Christianity’s evangelical efforts, the laws against pedophilia still on the books today would never have been there at all.

To give this historical sketch some important details, the most desirable age of men seeking sex with boys in ancient Greece and Rome was the 12-18 year old range, when the boys were blossoming into sexual maturity on their way to becoming men. In short, homosexual activity was defined primarily by pedophilia. There were no artificial distinctions between homosexuality, pedophilia, ephebophilia (sex with someone between 12-14) and hebephilia (sex with someone 15-18). There was simply the culturally commonplace desire of men to have sex with boys from ages 12-18.

Moreover, pedophilia with boys was not confined to a few perverted individuals with exclusively homosexual orientation. The great majority of men engaged in it as an accepted part of Greco-Roman culture, whether they were (as we would designate them) homosexual or heterosexual. Thus, pedophilia was not a moral issue, but a cultural practice engaged in by most men. (This is an important point that I’ll take up in a future article, because it means that our current attempt to fix a definite homosexual “percentage” in the population, say 2 percent or 10 percent, doesn’t take into account that homosexuality and pedophilia can spread to the majority through a deformed culture.)

That was precisely the situation in ancient pagan Greece and Rome. Then came Christ. Christianity made pedophilia a moral issue. As Christianity slowly evangelized the pagan Roman Empire, the widespread acceptance of men having sex with boys was replaced by widespread moral revulsion (and the appearance of anti-pedophilia laws that followed upon it). The same is true as well for homosexuality, sexual slavery, abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. They became moral issues, rather than accepted pagan social practices, only because of Christian evangelization.

Here are the lessons we must learn from this history.

The sole reason that there are still secular laws on the books that prohibit and punish pedophilia is that Christianity came to dominate culture in the West through evangelization. The only reason that we have accepted homosexuality in culture and in law is the increasing de-Christianization of the culture in the West. As we become even more secularized (i.e., repaganized), pedophilia will soon be accepted, just as homosexuality, abortion, infanticide, and euthanasia have already been embraced.

This is a massive, massive crisis in and for the Church because a deeply-embedded worldwide homosexual network among our priests, bishops, and cardinals is actively engaged in bringing about the full de-Christianization of the world by preying on boys between 12-18, literally recreating Greco-Roman sexual culture in our seminaries and dioceses. If you want to know what it was like in the sordid sexual days of ancient Greece and Rome, just read the Pennsylvania Report.


That’s a rather horrible irony, isn’t it? The very men most authoritatively charged with the evangelization of all the nations are full-steam ahead bringing about the devangelization of the nations. In doing so, these priests, bishops, and cardinals at the very heart of the Catholic Church are acting as willing agents of repaganization, undoing 2,000 years of Church History.

To be even more pointed, these priests, bishops, and cardinals are the chief agents of devangelization, de-Christianization, repaganization. There is nothing, nothing, that undermines the moral and theological authority of the magisterium more quickly and thoroughly than the devilish marriage of scandal and hypocrisy. It destroys the ability to evangelize.

And note that I say both moral and theological. Why should anyone now take anything the magisterium has to say seriously, whether it’s the Church’s teachings about pedophilia and homosexuality, or its teachings on the Most Holy Trinity?

Is that massive, massive enough of a crisis for you, Cardinal Wuerl? Could you imagine it being any more massive?

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Posted on: 9/6 11:51
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The answer is no Bike Lane, I am not interested in what he has to say. But I am interested in cleaning up the Church.

Posted on: 9/6 7:56
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Yvonne wrote:
These Catholic lay reporterswho are not connected to the Catholic church financially do an excellent job reporting on the scandal which also includes the Archdiocese of Newark, which covers northern NJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uLWladUd1Y


Yeah that’s legit. Did you forget to post this one too? https://youtu.be/_ePLkAm8i2s

Posted on: 9/5 22:20
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


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8/26 22:30
From nj
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@Mao – Calling someone like me who finds your position on the Catholic abuse scandal both inconsistent and hypocritical as revealing a “hysterical hatred of Christianity” is untrue, and suggestive of hysteria on your part, actually.

I’m neither a contemporary nun or renewed laity or a recovering Catholic, but find your inference that those who are must then be “anti-Christian” presumptuous. What, only pre-Vatican 2 practitioners are “real” Christians according to you? Your suggestion that there is only one proscribed way to be a Catholic, and any other way is somehow “anti-Christian” is puzzling and frankly, arrogant.

@Yvonne- Please stop. Your arguments are likewise full of inconsistencies, but at least Mao does not make readers feel like they are going around in circles trying to reason with an 8-year old.

You blame the Catholic abuse scandal on homosexuality by insisting that gay men are predisposed to taking on adolescent lovers, and keep mentioning Corey Feldman’s Hollywood sex ring. In reality, the Hollywood casting couch involves lots of heterosexual predators too? Female teen models are preyed upon by unscrupulous photographers, and Weinstein, Ailes, Moonves victims were as far as we know, all women. And what of men who take child brides, apparently not just limited to polygamous cults. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/r ... _5a05f4f8e4b0e37d2f37573d

[quote]
Mao wrote:
Dear Esp-

Are you a contemporary nun, perhaps? Or a lay person in charge of some "renewal." Or a recovering Catholic?...

Anyway, anyone coming from your perspective with a kind of hysterical hatred of Christianity, should be overjoyed at the incredible auto demolition of the Catholic church.

Posted on: 9/5 21:45
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