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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#1
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Probably won't be engaging in this thread any longer, bc in the weeks since i joined it's become like a bad habit
Final thoughts before going cold turkey:

Mao -what I find problematic isn’t as much your position (everyone is entitled to one) but that your backup is consistently weak, and you engage in intellectual dishonesty.

For example, your original post on Dr. Fitzgibbons would have JCList readers believe that he is an objective authority (“Dr. Fitzgibbons is highly respected with lots of experience with this” was your intro) when a quick google search shows Dr. Fitzgibbons far-right bias. He also does not have board certification in Psychiatiatry & Neurology, and according to the American Board of Medical Specialties, as of late 2017, he isn't board certified in any medical specialty or family medicine. He’s just prolific, not in publications like say JAMA or the New England Journal of Medicine, but on alt-right Catholic sites.

According to JCList newbie Edgewordwise (Mao- please tell me he/she isn’t one of your friends in the orthodox Mass group or perhaps even your ‘wonderful wife’ coming to your defense lol), you are most definitely not a “self-loathing latent homosexual.” We will take it on the word of those who know you best, but honestly the way you present yourself on JCList, I don’t think Sutherland was trying insult you, but simply being blunt about his suspicions.
It’s the “self-loathing” part that’s troublesome, not the homosexual part, yet that Edgewordwise seems to automatically assume that the phrase was an insult, seems telling of his/her bias that being gay is an insult. Don't think Sutherland is the one unenlightened.

Posted on: 9/14 17:10

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/14 17:35:29
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#2
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Wow. Obviously I hit a nerve.

Real my last post – I laid out an argument, as to why the person or websites you offer as supposedly objective authorities are anything but disinterested and have definitive strong agendas. Notice you did not respond to the substance of my argument and instead try to deflect.

I find you, and Yvonne, are not furthering the discussion by offering disingenuous stuff that as Sutherland suggested, is designed to pull the wool over the eyes of those less educated and or those unwilling to look critically at what you proffer as “proof” of your positions. And if you are indeed a lawyer you arguably should be held to a higher standard than the non-attorney Yvonnes of the world.

As to what my beliefs are – be it Catholic, Protestant, Wiccan, Muslim, agnostic, atheist, whatever – how is that relevant to being able to weigh in with my views of what i see as weak arguments on your part? People pointing that out you then incorrectly characterize as engaging in ad hominem attacks.

And if as you say you're truly "proud and grateful" for being alt right then proudly wear the mantle without being so thin skinned.





Posted on: 9/13 19:04
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#3
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


The publication that is promoting Dr. Fitzgibbons as a so-called authority is Lifesite.com, a hyper-orthodox Catholic organization who headlines itself as “The #1 site for Pro-Life News!”

Actual journalistic ones like the Washington Post, The New York Times (and in comparison to lifesite.com, even Fox News) all tag Lifesite.com as being ultra-conservative Catholic.

Snopes.com which analyzes fake news on both liberal and conservative ends of the spectrum, has called out lifesite.com a number of times. Watchdog sites like mediamatters.org and rightwingwatch.org have also called out lifesite.com.

The only one calling this Dr. Fitzgibbons “well-respected” is none other than JCList’s pope-wanna-be.

A simple google search on the doctor comes up with the following:

* Dr. Fitzgibbons actually worked for accused priests in a conservative diocese, as part of his membership in an organization that defended priests from abuse charges. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/ ... luated-troubled-kc-priest

* Doctor’s google reviews not terrific, and according to one patient, his practice also did reparative LGBT therapy https://www.google.com/search?q=richar ... 6c3163:0x401787043d3a1894,1,,,

* He runs an orthodox family counseling practice and links to this piece he wrote suggesting that Catholics who are uncomfortable with orthodox practices are the ones with psychological/anger issues. https://www.maritalhealing.com/conflic ... ressiveAnger-Fall2017.pdf

@ Mao, people pay you to argue their cases, for real? Because you aren’t doing a great job presenting your position. Trying to sell Dr. Fitzgibbons as a credible, objective source is sorta insulting our intelligence. If you can't forward your position with credible sources who aren't waving an agenda or bordering on nutty, then expect to get called out.

Posted on: 9/13 17:51
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#4
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


@ Adonis - No one is arguing whether or not there is a gay subculture in the catholic church. There may be, but that does not mean that someone homosexual equals abuser. But that seems to be what Yvonne, Mao, and theirs are asserting by blaming the abuse crisis on the sexual orientation of priests, when the cause is really psychopathy in the abusers. Certainly, sociopathic, narcissistic behavior in the human population isn't limited to one persuasion or another.

And lets not mix this with the issue of sexually active gay priests who also preach from the pulpit against premarital sex and homosexuality. That is hypocritical, which may be an issue in a church leader, but hypocrisy also does not mean someone is then an abuser.

@ Yvonne - who here is arguing to keep the abuse silent? It's the Catholic church leadership -- conservatives and liberals -heterosexuals and homosexuals -- who have over DECADES - both pre and post Vatican 2- been the ones trying to keep a lid on all the abuse, and protecting psychopathic behavior.


Posted on: 9/12 15:34

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/12 15:59:05
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Re: Light rail stop- 9th and Congress
#5
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


In fairness I was one who did specifically ask about that stop. And appreciated the info

Posted on: 9/11 17:55

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/11 18:11:36
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#6
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Yvonne -
Unlike the fringe site Churchmilitant.com youve linked to previously, Military.com is an actual news site reporting stories about the military.

But you do realize in the Military.com article you just provided, neither the headline ( "Military Chaplain Blames 'Effeminate' Gay Priests for Church Abuse Scandals"), nor the sources in the story are complimentary to this chaplain or saying he is credible?

Seems Military.com found the story newsworthy not because it agrees with the priest, but because his statements are so over the top so that becomes newsworthy.

nice try lol, but again you miss the mark

Posted on: 9/11 17:49

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/11 18:15:54
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Re: Light rail stop- 9th and Congress
#7
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Appreciate the info, JerseyMom.

I didn't take it as though you were cautioning against bogeymen, rather responding directly to my question as to whether to the stop was isolated at night.

Especially as a woman, nothing out of the ordinary with doing research as to whether or not a stop is isolated or not late at night...that's something I'd wanna know about wherever a stop was, whether in Heights, downtown JC, upper Eastside...

Posted on: 9/11 17:23
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Light rail stop- 9th and Congress
#8
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


This stop is in Hoboken not JC right? How close to Washington Blvd? Is it crowded-safe at night or in a remote location? Weekend hours?

Posted on: 9/10 22:21
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#9
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


All of Yvonne’s sources are fringe ultra conservative Catholic sites. Churchmilitant.com is like the Breitbart or Gateway Pundit of Catholicism

These are rabid pre-Vatican 2 Catholics who have a clear cut agenda to use this crisis to oust mainstream leaders and bring the church back to the pre 1960s. Yvonne conveniently acts like abuse wasn’t happening as well in the decades before Vatican 2, when in reality it certainly was.


Posted on: 9/10 20:01
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#10
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


According to the Pennsylvania report, priest abuse of grown women even higher rate than children.
- https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cath ... -grown-women-too?ref=home

And ultra-conservative element in Catholic church using this as excuse to bring down Pope Francis, when abuse has been rampant as well during conservative Pope Benedict's term, and readily evident and covered up in conservative dioceses too.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-plot ... own-pope-francis?ref=home



Posted on: 9/9 12:11
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#11
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Mao
Why are you so hung up on sex between consenting adults, if they are fully “consenting” and “adults”?

If it’s the case of assault, rape, or sexual harassment where someone like McCarrick who Yvonne says was using his position to pressure, then that’s not consentual. But hello, predators in the world are just as likely to be heterosexual, so you both focusing on the orientation of homosexuality, rather than the abusive behavior, IS intellectual dishonesty and homophobia.

If it’s the case of pedophilia and underage children, then they are not adults, so again lack of true consent.

For your sake, I hope it is disingenuousness about your underlying motivations, rather than absence of cognitive ability to comprehend these really not difficult to understand distinctions. Remember, consenting adults. Victims who are underage or those who are assaulted or those who are in an employee or position of less power than the abuser by definition are not consenting and/or adults.

In the case of the Catholic church, gay priests who are sexually activel and yet the next day are preaching that premarital sex and homosexuality will damn you to hell, may be hypocrites. But in the case of those who are gay and enter the Catholic priesthood because they feel can’t freely live who they are otherwise within the Catholic community says more about the shortcomings of the fundamentalist Catholic community and doctrine.

And calling out the hypocrisy is very different from denouncing priests because of their sexual orientation and making this abuse crisis about that. It is the hypocrisy, the lies, the predatory behavior, and the covering up for predatory behavior that can legitimately be criticized, without making this abuse scandal the excuse to demonize gays and blame abusive behavior on sexual orientation.

Mao and his fundamentalist Tridentine latin-mass, Pope Francis-hating, far-from-mainstream Catholic brethren are clearly trying to use this scandal as a way to purge more mainstream Catholic leaders.

Posted on: 9/8 11:30
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Re: Potential wild weather September 11 - 13th
#12
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


finger crossed it goes out to sea!

Posted on: 9/8 11:22
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#13
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


I meant *gentle* (phrase you used) - not "softly"

Posted on: 9/6 20:24
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#14
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Mao –
Whether some historian with a fundamentalist-worldview pronounces that the ancient world was against homosexuality ‘softly’ or not, you're suggesting if modern society views gay people as normal human beings that this will somehow lead to the fall of civilization, bc that would lead to the slippery slope to condoning child abuse?!?

Honestly, that seems nuts, verging on hysteria, but that's the inference you were attempting to promote by first posting Ben Wikers article, and when someone calls you out on it, you try to deflect with more blah, blah, blah & high-brow allusions and professorial language that basically just masks that underneath it all, youre promote a bigoted world view with fallacious reasoning and intellectual dishonesty. That's not what I would call trying to advance the conversation.


Posted on: 9/6 19:24
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Re: Compact Front Loading Washing machines
#15
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Till you all posted about this, had no idea that ventless dryers were even a thing, just now learning that these are the standard in many cities in Europe. Thanks for the info.

Posted on: 9/6 16:05
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#16
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Wow. Mao may be more articulate, but he and Yvonne really are cut from the same cloth.

Both cite sources supporting their position, ignorantly or disingenuously offered by Yvonne and Mao as being even near reliable authorities, when their sources are no where near that.

Yvonne’s YouTube video is produced by https://www.churchmilitant.com/ an ultra-right wing not at all mainstream Catholic group.

Mao’s source, Benjamin Wiker, is a fringe nut, an individual who like Mao may be articulate, but nonetheless hides simple-minded thinking and bigotry better than those less educated.

Benjamim Wiker thinks Darwinism is against natural law. From wiki: “John M. Lynch in a review for Wiker’s book The Darwin Myth in the Journal of the History of Biology has dismissed Wiker's claims as irrational.[5] In a review, Sander Gliboff, a Professor of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University, has written that Wiker's biographical interpretations of Darwin "verge on fantasy".[6]

Benjamin Wiker is also written up in the blog Encyclopedia of American Loons, lol. https://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/02/415-benjamin-wiker.html

@ Mao – reading some of your prior posts, you’re a lawyer and yet cite an article by Wikers to make your argument? Another example that education is no guarantee of common sense or critical thinking, I guess.

Posted on: 9/6 15:57

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:12:15
Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/6 16:16:42
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#17
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


@Mao – Calling someone like me who finds your position on the Catholic abuse scandal both inconsistent and hypocritical as revealing a “hysterical hatred of Christianity” is untrue, and suggestive of hysteria on your part, actually.

I’m neither a contemporary nun or renewed laity or a recovering Catholic, but find your inference that those who are must then be “anti-Christian” presumptuous. What, only pre-Vatican 2 practitioners are “real” Christians according to you? Your suggestion that there is only one proscribed way to be a Catholic, and any other way is somehow “anti-Christian” is puzzling and frankly, arrogant.

@Yvonne- Please stop. Your arguments are likewise full of inconsistencies, but at least Mao does not make readers feel like they are going around in circles trying to reason with an 8-year old.

You blame the Catholic abuse scandal on homosexuality by insisting that gay men are predisposed to taking on adolescent lovers, and keep mentioning Corey Feldman’s Hollywood sex ring. In reality, the Hollywood casting couch involves lots of heterosexual predators too? Female teen models are preyed upon by unscrupulous photographers, and Weinstein, Ailes, Moonves victims were as far as we know, all women. And what of men who take child brides, apparently not just limited to polygamous cults. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/r ... _5a05f4f8e4b0e37d2f37573d

[quote]
Mao wrote:
Dear Esp-

Are you a contemporary nun, perhaps? Or a lay person in charge of some "renewal." Or a recovering Catholic?...

Anyway, anyone coming from your perspective with a kind of hysterical hatred of Christianity, should be overjoyed at the incredible auto demolition of the Catholic church.

Posted on: 9/5 21:45
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Re: Compact Front Loading Washing machines
#18
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Wondering where does the water condense, and how much electricity does a ventless cost to run, compared to standard vented dryer?

Posted on: 9/4 19:25
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#19
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-de ... se-in-the-catholic-church

@ Mao - we can ask you the same. Why the selective outrage on your part? You basically praise Benedict, call him a "genius" while you've raged at Francis? And Benedict was apparently protecting his brother, also a priest

You are being disingenuous. As an ultra-conservative Tridentine-Mass Catholic, you seem as outraged about Vatican 2 as you are about the child abuse scandal, and seemingly using the latter as an excuse to get rid of a progressive pope you do not like.
Your selective outrage is hypocritical. Because the fact is Benedict, Francis, John Paul, they were all complicit, morally corrupt in putting power and the institution over children and their flock.

The Catholic church is a non-taxed, "non-profit" institution whose 'mission' is supposedly the psychological and emotional welfare of its flock above riches & power. Yet in practice it has too often been about the power and riches. Pope Francis seems to be less about the riches and pomp and pageantry, though maybe just as much into the power. This bothers you apparently in large part because the Tridentine Mass is much about pomp and pageantry.

Posted on: 9/4 18:46

Edited by esp123 on 2018/9/4 19:04:24
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#20
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Benedict, JP2, Francis -- whatever their stances, traditional or modern, all these heads of the Church confronted the issue only when it became a pr nightmare for the church, and impossible to ignore any longer. Had they not been forced by the public and journalists to take action, unlikely anything would have been done.

Posted on: 8/31 23:34
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#21
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Mao & Yvonne- The fact is conservative or liberal- the popes and powers that be in the Catholic church were corruptly putting the institution above the welfare of its flock, for decades/centuries.

And to pronounce that there can be no change within an institution because Catholicism means no change is not only strange but also self-serving to your rigid agenda. People were brutalized during the Crusades, our country at one time legalized slavery...Arguably change is not only a good thing but necessary if institutions, countries, and humans are to evolve.

And seriously, who made you the arbitor of what the Catholic church 'is' , 'should' be, and cannot be?


Posted on: 8/31 16:34
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#22
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Mao- Oh that's right - it was Pope Benedict (I was mixing him but with JP2) who was the conservative...
while Benedict was a pro- Tridentine Mass pope with regressive policies on gays and women, he wasn't, contrary to your assertion, a protector of children.
yet there you go, again selectively supporting him (while blasting Pope Francis) with regard to the Catholic church abuses crisis, because apparently you agree with Benedict's politics (and yet denigrate John Paul 2 bc he appointed McCarrick and those darn 'liberals').

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-de ... se-in-the-catholic-church

Posted on: 8/31 15:59
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#23
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Yvonne is too easy a target, so i'm not even attempting to address her directly anymore.
But Mao, with your attempt to come off as somehow 'reasoned' is arguably the one more insidiuous.

First, your past posts under both your current name and as you state your prior screen name of Publius, you seemed more than ready to attack Pope Francis and readily admit you detest him for his liberal Catholic positions compared to a conservative pope like Radzinger or Pope John Paul, who you were heartily defending on these issues years ago, when the Catholic child abuse crisis was going on for decades.

One of your JC list posts was a literally 5- pages long treatise on conservative Catholicism! Your disruptive marches and rants decades ago during Fr Tom Ivanowicz's attempts to modernize the direction of the OLC parish when he was pastor also reveals your skin in this game. Your sermonizing - espousing the Latin mass, denouncing Vatican 2 reforms, birth control, womens rights, homosexuality, etc. and comparing Pope Francis practically to the anti-Christ, reveals your extreme, certainly not mainstream agenda.

Calling out your seeming hypocrisy is an observation, not an attack. Frankly, I'd rather someone with these bigoted views be like Yvonne, whose lack of sophistry in arguing these issues is transparent and thus easily rebutted. You attempting to come off as "reasoned" or somehow enlightened is, I believe, completely disingenuous.



Posted on: 8/31 14:13

Edited by esp123 on 2018/8/31 14:29:14
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#24
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Yvonne your lack of critical thinking evident again.

The abusers are perpetrators not because they are homosexual, but because they have a complete lack of boundaries, are psychologically ill, and are deeply morally flawed. That description could apply to gay, straight, bi, poly, whatever.

People don’t go around calling the issue of say serial killers a “heterosexual” problem even though the majority of cases are, or the issue of older men forcing underage girls into polygomy on compounds in Utah a “heterosexual issue” either. I know plenty, in fact the majority, of straight males are not serial killers or polygamous cult leaders.

You and Mao labeling it a gay issue puts the focus on something that is not the causation of this Catholic Church problem.
i myself am a straight woman who finds your attempts to demonize gay men not only offensive, but your lack of critical thinking is irritating too

Posted on: 8/31 9:12
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Re: Our Lady of Czestochowa Downtown Sex Abuse...
#25
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Mao - did your typically long-winded post just basically blame the Catholic Church child abuse crisis on homosexuality/homosexuals?

I would argue that sick individuals who prey on the weak and abuse their power and cross extreme boundaries do so because they suffer a personality disorder and exhibit a gross moral failing, not a result of their sexual orientation.

Yvonne is an easy mark for eye-rolling because her critical thinking seems so blatantly lacking and her rhetorical skills are not as outwardly honed as yours. However, people like yourself who embark on long-winded treatises merely serve to hide that underneath you really are as bigoted as Yvonne or as any uneducated redneck (not saying that all rednecks are uneducated or bigoted, but comparing you to ones who are) You just hide it better underneath your sophistry. You seem to piously proclaim ‘devoutness’ yet your postings suggest you probably voted for and hypocritically support Trump because he is furthering your right wing religious agenda.

Posted on: 8/30 23:47

Edited by esp123 on 2018/8/31 0:02:39
Edited by esp123 on 2018/8/31 0:11:54
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sidewalk concrete work recommendations?
#26
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk


Can anyone recommend a reputable and relatively budget friendly company or person that fixes sides walks that are cracked and uneven, due to trees roots having done a number. Dont even know the correct term to google. Pavers? Masoners?
And never having had this kind of work done before, what would be a reasonable price range?

Posted on: 8/26 22:41
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