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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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caj11 wrote:
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LimpiarElSucio wrote:


price/quality aside, when you dine at a non-chain in JC, the profit stays in JC (or at least fairly local), when you dine at outback, the profit flees to Tampa (where outback is HQ'd). this is a policy that will not only help define the feel and image of JC but also likely benefit the local economy.


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Are you really sure about that? Is every non-chain restaurant owned by people who physically live in Jersey City and are all their employees living in Jersey City? Furthermore, do they spend all their profit in Jersey City or do they take it over to the Garden State Plaza in Elizabeth and spend it at places that are also chains? Or do they go into Manhattan to spend it at stores, theaters and other places that are not in Jersey City either? The whole concept of "spending your money locally" is just ludicrous when we live in a very fluid economy in a large metropolitan area with lots of places to spend your money both inside and outside of Jersey City. Money leaves Jersey City all the time and money comes right back in as well. I don't think we have a problem of "capital flight" like they had in post-World War I Germany.

Yes, Outback Steakhouse is a chain with headquarters in Florida but it's owned by a larger publicly traded company with stockholders all over the country (maybe even some in Jersey City).

I'd also love to know what Fulop will define as a "chain" because Ibby's Falafel, with a second location in Freehold could be considered a chain without getting more specific. Two Boots claims it is a "local " restaurant as well yet I see numerous locations listed on their website, all over the country (I wonder how both of these places will react to this proposal).

Finally Fulop is quoting as saying “Applebee’s isn’t exactly a food destination that attracts people from all over the region”. Well then, what's the problem? Applebee's wouldn't be here if it didn't think it could attract enough people to survive and thrive. That Applebee's by Hudson Mall has been there a long time, I don't think there's any danger of a second one getting built.

He also says “We don’t want every retail space to become a Gap, TGI Fridays or a Starbucks.” I don't think that will be an issue. Plenty of independent businesses survive and thrive alongside the chains in Jersey City. Competition is the American way. End of story.
bull...who says the profit stays in jc? the owner could live in ny, newark or short hills. and even if the owner did live in jc, jc does not have an income tax

Posted on: 2015/4/7 14:20
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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[quote]
LimpiarElSucio wrote:


price/quality aside, when you dine at a non-chain in JC, the profit stays in JC (or at least fairly local), when you dine at outback, the profit flees to Tampa (where outback is HQ'd). this is a policy that will not only help define the feel and image of JC but also likely benefit the local economy.


[quote]

Are you really sure about that? Is every non-chain restaurant owned by people who physically live in Jersey City and are all their employees living in Jersey City? Furthermore, do they spend all their profit in Jersey City or do they take it over to the Garden State Plaza in Elizabeth and spend it at places that are also chains? Or do they go into Manhattan to spend it at stores, theaters and other places that are not in Jersey City either? The whole concept of "spending your money locally" is just ludicrous when we live in a very fluid economy in a large metropolitan area with lots of places to spend your money both inside and outside of Jersey City. Money leaves Jersey City all the time and money comes right back in as well. I don't think we have a problem of "capital flight" like they had in post-World War I Germany.

Yes, Outback Steakhouse is a chain with headquarters in Florida but it's owned by a larger publicly traded company with stockholders all over the country (maybe even some in Jersey City).

I'd also love to know what Fulop will define as a "chain" because Ibby's Falafel, with a second location in Freehold could be considered a chain without getting more specific. Two Boots claims it is a "local " restaurant as well yet I see numerous locations listed on their website, all over the country (I wonder how both of these places will react to this proposal).

Finally Fulop is quoting as saying “Applebee’s isn’t exactly a food destination that attracts people from all over the region”. Well then, what's the problem? Applebee's wouldn't be here if it didn't think it could attract enough people to survive and thrive. That Applebee's by Hudson Mall has been there a long time, I don't think there's any danger of a second one getting built.

He also says “We don’t want every retail space to become a Gap, TGI Fridays or a Starbucks.” I don't think that will be an issue. Plenty of independent businesses survive and thrive alongside the chains in Jersey City. Competition is the American way. End of story.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 14:16
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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I'm looking forward to more mom & pop nail salons rather than an apple store.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:54
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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Although I don't particularly care for many of the major chains its not appropriate for a politician to decide what is the the right mix of national or local mom and pop stores that should exist.

I would recommend that the mayor focuses on removing the unethical politicians like Ramchal and reduce crime instead of focusing on this....

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:49
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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K-Lo wrote:
I'm agnostic on this measure but think if the city really wants to help small businesses thrive in JC, the focus should be on eliminating obstacles to opening in the first place.


Amen...

Start with the Building Department (which would require the Mayor pressuring the State since the State govt. overseas it).

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:45
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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JcDevil wrote:
Had to go from anonymous lurker to registered user to comment on this one, because it's really an interesting issue. The issue is clear - the ability of chain stores to run unprofitable stores for long periods of time in order to drive away competition has a deleterious effect on the choice and character of the surrounding community. Fulop sees what's happening in parts of Manhattan (for instance, today's announcement of the closure of Pearl River Mart) and wants to try and prevent it from happening in JC. That's a good thing.

But, is a heavy-handed ban with an arbitrary percentage limit the right way to do it? Not at all, especially when gentler methods can do the same thing, or even do more to promote a vibrant downtown with independent restaurants and stores. Why not provide tax incentives for local businesses to open and remain? Or incentives for owners of retail property to rent to local or independent businesses? People love to complain about tax abatements - what if they were contingent on the developers dedicating their retail space to local businesses?

The fact is that this is clearly not Manhattan, and we should be getting more businesses to open downtown (and elsewhere), not fewer. But by specifically encouraging local ones, instead of banning chains, we can get better results overall, because it's not like all chains are bad things. We may not want another McDonalds', but a Shake Shack would be nice. We may not want a Walmart, but what about a Trader Joe's (yes, I know grocery stores are exempt)? We might not want another bank branch, but an Equinox would probably be a good thing.


wth, jersey city is not manhattan, it is not even hoboken or brooklyn. and it's not like mom & pop's are going to invest their money in unprofitable businesses and they have less staying power. in some ways, big chains often create opportunities for smaller mom & pop operators as they drive TRAFFIC

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:38
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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Had to go from anonymous lurker to registered user to comment on this one, because it's really an interesting issue. The issue is clear - the ability of chain stores to run unprofitable stores for long periods of time in order to drive away competition has a deleterious effect on the choice and character of the surrounding community. Fulop sees what's happening in parts of Manhattan (for instance, today's announcement of the closure of Pearl River Mart) and wants to try and prevent it from happening in JC. That's a good thing.

But, is a heavy-handed ban with an arbitrary percentage limit the right way to do it? Not at all, especially when gentler methods can do the same thing, or even do more to promote a vibrant downtown with independent restaurants and stores. Why not provide tax incentives for local businesses to open and remain? Or incentives for owners of retail property to rent to local or independent businesses? People love to complain about tax abatements - what if they were contingent on the developers dedicating their retail space to local businesses?

The fact is that this is clearly not Manhattan, and we should be getting more businesses to open downtown (and elsewhere), not fewer. But by specifically encouraging local ones, instead of banning chains, we can get better results overall, because it's not like all chains are bad things. We may not want another McDonalds', but a Shake Shack would be nice. We may not want a Walmart, but what about a Trader Joe's (yes, I know grocery stores are exempt)? We might not want another bank branch, but an Equinox would probably be a good thing.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:08
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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I'm agnostic on this measure but think if the city really wants to help small businesses thrive in JC, the focus should be on eliminating obstacles to opening in the first place.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 13:03
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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JCishome wrote:
I think the point - besides Fulop getting a headline, which is the real point -


Amen.

And no, I don't feel inundated - merely pointing out that "chains" can mean a bigger number than you might initially anticipate. I'm happy to have a Home Depot and Target available when needed and I stop in Starbucks once a month on my way in or out of the PATH - but in general, I think we are well-served by the pretty good number of independent shops we have. If anything, I think the effort is misguided. Not that he'd have the balls to do it, but if Fulop wanted to really help out quality of life, he'd go after spaces that sit empty or underutilized and fine/tax building owners into action. Or pass legislation limiting concentration of type of retail - pizza and deep discount retailers on Newark come to mind...

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:42
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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and you will still have that option. you can always get in a car and drive to the suburbs or hop on the path and head up to times square.

unfortunately, because of the dynamics of rents and scale, the consumer isn't the decider (like we would like to think it is) when it comes to whether big chains come in or not or whether small businesses have the opportunity to start.

price/quality aside, when you dine at a non-chain in JC, the profit stays in JC (or at least fairly local), when you dine at outback, the profit flees to Tampa (where outback is HQ'd). this is a policy that will not only help define the feel and image of JC but also likely benefit the local economy.

Quote:

hero69 wrote:
Quote:

jmcee wrote:
Quote:

MDM wrote:
Would Whole Foods be considered a 'chain store'?




"Grocery stores aren't affected by the proposal, according to the draft ordinance."
this is bs. although i am not a fan of the big chains, i think the market is the bes decider of whether big chains come in or not. honestly, whether i spend my money at outback or marco & pepe, that should be my decision not fulop's....

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:41
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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JCishome wrote:
I think the point - besides Fulop getting a headline, which is the real point - would be that chain stores owned by large corporations change the economics of an area, since they can afford to run unprofitable locations longer than an independent could. That jacks up the rents so that independents can't compete. Have you walked around the West Village lately? The number of small independent businesses that have closed is really shocking.


But if I want to open a Dunkin Donuts franchise, why am not good enough for him?

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:24
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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I think the point - besides Fulop getting a headline, which is the real point - would be that chain stores owned by large corporations change the economics of an area, since they can afford to run unprofitable locations longer than an independent could. That jacks up the rents so that independents can't compete. Have you walked around the West Village lately? The number of small independent businesses that have closed is really shocking.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:15
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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Considering that the most recent store to close is a chain (Tilted Kilt), I am not so convinced that the problem is an inundation of chain stores...

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:14
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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La_Verdad wrote:
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jc_dweller wrote:
is there a proliferation of chain stores that I haven't noticed? Seems like an imaginary problem.


That's a good question. Assuming only grocery stores are exempt, there are probably more chains than you realize when you stop to think about it. At least 3 Dunkin Donuts, 3 McDonalds, 4 Starbucks, Duane Reade, CVS, Capital One, Bank of America, Chase, Home Depot, 2 Cosis, Target, Chili's, Edible Arrangements, GNC, pretty much the entirety of the Newport Mall.

Do gas stations count? FedEx and UPS? How is 30% determined - by square footage? 300 miles seems very arbitrary - would include DC and Boston. Wonder how they came up with it - maybe it's the language used in an ordinance elsewhere?


But the point is do you feel inundated? I don't.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:06
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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hero69 wrote:
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jmcee wrote:
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MDM wrote:
Would Whole Foods be considered a 'chain store'?




"Grocery stores aren't affected by the proposal, according to the draft ordinance."
this is bs. although i am not a fan of the big chains, i think the market is the bes decider of whether big chains come in or not. honestly, whether i spend my money at outback or marco & pepe, that should be my decision not fulop's....



Agreed. The "big brother" thing is creepy. If people don't want to shop at Starbucks, let their wallet decide. Don't tell me I HAVE to shop at Dames (nothing wrong with Dames, just an example). Plus the little guys are often better but often more expensive so it's like forcing us to spend money in a certain way that we might not have the means to do.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 12:05
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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jc_dweller wrote:
is there a proliferation of chain stores that I haven't noticed? Seems like an imaginary problem.


That's a good question. Assuming only grocery stores are exempt, there are probably more chains than you realize when you stop to think about it. At least 3 Dunkin Donuts, 3 McDonalds, 4 Starbucks, Duane Reade, CVS, Capital One, Bank of America, Chase, Home Depot, 2 Cosis, Target, Chili's, Edible Arrangements, GNC, pretty much the entirety of the Newport Mall.

Do gas stations count? FedEx and UPS? How is 30% determined - by square footage? 300 miles seems very arbitrary - would include DC and Boston. Wonder how they came up with it - maybe it's the language used in an ordinance elsewhere?

Posted on: 2015/4/7 11:50
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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is there a proliferation of chain stores that I haven't noticed? Seems like an imaginary problem.

Posted on: 2015/4/7 11:38
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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jmcee wrote:
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MDM wrote:
Would Whole Foods be considered a 'chain store'?




"Grocery stores aren't affected by the proposal, according to the draft ordinance."
this is bs. although i am not a fan of the big chains, i think the market is the bes decider of whether big chains come in or not. honestly, whether i spend my money at outback or marco & pepe, that should be my decision not fulop's....

Posted on: 2015/4/7 11:38
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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MDM wrote:
Would Whole Foods be considered a 'chain store'?




"Grocery stores aren't affected by the proposal, according to the draft ordinance."

Posted on: 2015/4/7 10:49
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Re: Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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Would Whole Foods be considered a 'chain store'?



Posted on: 2015/4/7 10:25
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Jersey City Mayor Seeks to Limit Chain Stores Downtown
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http://www.wsj.com/articles/jersey-ci ... tores-downtown-1428369339

Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop wants to limit chain stores in downtown neighborhoods, joining an urban debate over whether cities should boost policies that favor mom-and-pop stores over chain retailers.

Under the new rules, only 30% of commercial space downtown could be rented to a business that has 10 other properties within 300 miles of Jersey City, according to a proposed draft.

Since many of the best-known chain stores and restaurants have many more properties than that, Mr. Fulop is trying to dramatically limit chain businesses.

“Applebee’s isn’t exactly a food destination that attracts people from all over the region,” Mr. Fulop said. He added: “We don’t want every retail space to become a Gap, TGI Fridays or a Starbucks.”

A spokesman for DineEquity Inc., which owns Applebee’s, declined to comment.

Mr. Fulop said the proposal, which he plans to announce at a City Council meeting Tuesday night, has angered some developers but has won praise from some local businesses.

In places such as San Francisco and Nantucket, Mass., rules have limited chain retailers from locating in certain neighborhoods, and local officials have been praised for keeping an eclectic mix of coffee shops, boutiques and restaurants.

Proponents of such rules, who include neighborhood activists, urban planners and coalitions of small retailers, say regulations maintain the character in neighborhoods and keep rents down for small businesses.

In New York, neighborhoods such as the Upper West Side have become saturated with bank outposts and yogurt shops.

Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer and other officials have pushed new rules that are designed to help small businesses keep their leases.

Critics say limiting chain businesses is discriminatory and that the free market should determine who takes retail spaces. Many residents want banks and other chain establishments nearby for convenience, and others depend on them for jobs.

Tom Bracken, president of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce, called the Jersey City proposal “ridiculous” and said Mr. Fulop would regret imposing new regulations on businesses. The city’s gains, he said, could be reversed.

“The last thing you want to be doing is turning away business,” Mr. Bracken said. He said no other New Jersey city had tried such a policy.

Jonathan Bowles, executive director for New York-based Center for an Urban Future, said he supports the idea of regulating development. “It just becomes difficult to draw the line on when you can’t have a business somewhere,” he said.

Benefiting from its proximity to New York City, Jersey City’s commercial and residential development has surged in recent years, in contrast with sluggish growth in other parts of the state. Still, Jersey City is far less developed than some other places that have tried to curb chain businesses and is hardly a tourism destination on its own.

Jersey City is defining a chain business as one that is contractually obligated to maintain a facade, menu items, merchandise or color scheme, among other qualifications. Grocery stores aren't affected by the proposal, according to the draft ordinance.

Downtown streets have neighborhood bars, restaurants and shops, along with restaurant chains such as Five Guys and Qdoba. The city has boomed with new condominiums, even as pockets remain crime-ridden and impoverished. Some have criticized Mr. Fulop for focusing too much on downtown, though he has announced developments in other parts of the city.

Mr. Fulop is eyeing a 2017 bid for governor and intends to sell the city’s story as part of his campaign. His administration is marketing Jersey City as the best midsize city in the country, spending more than $1 million on an ad campaign.

Some business officials and developers question whether the city’s economy is strong enough to turn down any development.

Mr. Fulop said limiting chain stores and restaurants would prove to be a smart long-term strategy. “If you look forward three, four, five years and Jersey City is filled with franchise and formula-based businesses, it would no longer be a place where you would see the continued growth,” he said.

He has won over some developers, including David Barry, whose Ironstate Development has built several high-rises downtown. Mr. Barry said it would be easier to attract residents to a diverse downtown.

David Massoni, who owns two restaurants in Jersey City, said development has brought a “renaissance of sorts” that could be hurt by big-box retailers. Parts of Jersey City remind him of Brooklyn, where he operates three other restaurants in Park Slope.


Posted on: 2015/4/7 9:35
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