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Re: Trump Our New President
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I think I have shown that cost is not the main issue here, despite what Trump said in his tweets. The estimated cost to provide the hormones and surgery is peanuts when put into the context of the overall military budget.

It is one of the main parts of a recruiter's job to weed out people that would be a burden for the military. The last thing they want to do is spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training someone, only for them to quit or be discharged.

Regarding your comments about there being no room for a reasonable middle ground; given the current political climate I tend to lean towards agreement with your point. There is also a larger part of me that still hopes that we can get back to a point of reasonable compromise. Otherwise, I think the road we are on now leads us to not getting anything bipartisan done.

Posted on: 7/27 15:41
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I think I would be ok if trans people who already had the surgery served, and who otherwise didn't demonstrate mental issues, so long as there wasn't some huge cost associated with them serving. Like something to do with their hormones. We want our military to be strengthened and not burdened by new recruits.

But we don't live in a world where there can be a reasonable compromise. We have "progressive" zealots like Tony who will scream about how all trans people must be allowed to serve regardless of the cost, and you are a massive bigot to even question it. I'm sure he's all for free sex changes for them.

So because a reasonable middle ground is impossible, I'm fine with Trump's decision.


Posted on: 7/27 15:11
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It can be a barrier to enlistment, but it's usually taken on a case by case basis. There are plenty of people in the military on daily meds. They just need to be prescribed by a military doctor.

Posted on: 7/27 15:06
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I thought people who require daily medications aren't allowed to enlist, like diabetics? Wouldn't someone requiring daily hormone therapy be denied for the same reason, not because they're transgender?

Posted on: 7/27 14:37
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I think you may have missed the part where I said "Being accepted by the military is not a civil right, but not being discriminated against based on your sexual orientation is." I was referring to ones civil rights in general, not in terms of acceptance into the military, but I can see how my statement could be misconstrued.

At least we can agree that is not a violation of anyone's civil rights to not give someone a free sex change operation. I just think it's a dick move to ban them from serving in general. Especially since they willingly signed up to serve. Would you be okay with allowing transgendered people to serve if the government didn't offer them surgery?

Posted on: 7/27 14:24
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Azul, do you understand the difference between a policy and something you "can't" do by law?

You seemed to think being accepted by the army is a civil right. It isn't. You tried to talk about prohibitions against discrimination based on sexual orientation. But they are completely irrelevant here. Otherwise the old policies would have violated these laws.

The old policy was radically changed by Obama to allow trans genders to receive free sex change operations. That policy has now been tossed out. This isn't a violation of any sort of civil right. Plus it only affects .1% of people.

Posted on: 7/27 13:59
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The army certainly can discriminate against you based on your sexual orientation. Why do you think gays were officially banned from the military up through the end of Obama's term?

That was the policy previously, but that has changed and is no longer the case. The policy was updated to reflect the current demographics of people wanting to serve their country. Rightly so, as sexual orientation as no bearing on your ability to fight.

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Second, trans people are being rejected on the basis of gender dysphoria, an official mental illness, and not a sexual orientation.

Not according to Trump's statement. According to Trump, "the military needs to be focused on overwhelming and decisive victory and can not be burdened with the tremendous medical costs and disruption that transgender in the military would entail." No mention of gender dysphoria there. I also find it a little funny that it's okay for Uncle Sam to spend 84 million on erectile dysfunction medication for current and former service members, but the estimated 8.4 million is too much and needs to be cut. Why not also make cuts to that program if the military is that strapped for cash. Oh wait...this is a political move and has nothing to do with saving any money or mental health.

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JCMan8 wrote:
Third, the sex change procedures were free in the sense that the taxpayer was paying for them, not the person who wanted the procedure.

This is true, but I would argue the the service member is paying the country back through their service.


Posted on: 7/27 13:53
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You didn't bring that up previously, but now that you did, I think that is a shitty deal as well.

Posted on: 7/27 13:36
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JCMan8 wrote:
Being accepted by the army isn't a civil right, sorry.

And I don't share the same definition of "progress" as you. For example, I don't think taxpayer funded sex changes (Obama ordered for all trans soldiers) is progress.

In fact, I think it is bizarre and regressive that trans people could have signed up for the army and received a free sex change. Happy Obama's nuttery was rolled back.


Correct. Being accepted by the military is not a civil right, but not being discriminated against based on your sexual orientation is. I'm guessing you haven't served in the military if you think a sex change operation is free. Yes the individual service member would work with their chain of command and doctors to formulate a plan that works best for the military and the service member, and that may involve a sex change operation, but the service member is hardly getting that free of charge.

I doubt many people would willingly put their lives on the line for a "free" operation. People join the military because of a sense of duty to serve and protect their country. The mission always comes first, even for someone that is trans.

Besides, the military just said they are going keep letting trans people serve with honor and respect until there are new directives issued. Who would have thought tweeting something doesn't count?


Azul, you have no idea what you are talking about.

The army certainly can discriminate against you based on your sexual orientation. Why do you think gays were officially banned from the military up through the end of Obama's term? If only they had an ace lawyer like you on staff, you could have informed the army that their policy was illegal.

Second, trans people are being rejected on the basis of gender dysphoria, an official mental illness, and not a sexual orientation.

Third, the sex change procedures were free in the sense that the taxpayer was paying for them, not the person who wanted the procedure.

So other than everything you said, you're right ;)

Posted on: 7/27 13:05
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How does '1 to 3 billion' become '3 billion'? And that's in local, state, and federal incentives combined. Ultimately the package has to be approved by the state.

On the other hand, California is standing by, ready to underwrite billionaire Elon Musk to the tune of around 3 billion dollars!

Where's the outrage over that?

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla- ... rnment-bailing-out-2017-7

Posted on: 7/27 12:57
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JCMan8 wrote:
Being accepted by the army isn't a civil right, sorry.

And I don't share the same definition of "progress" as you. For example, I don't think taxpayer funded sex changes (Obama ordered for all trans soldiers) is progress.

In fact, I think it is bizarre and regressive that trans people could have signed up for the army and received a free sex change. Happy Obama's nuttery was rolled back.


Correct. Being accepted by the military is not a civil right, but not being discriminated against based on your sexual orientation is. I'm guessing you haven't served in the military if you think a sex change operation is free. Yes the individual service member would work with their chain of command and doctors to formulate a plan that works best for the military and the service member, and that may involve a sex change operation, but the service member is hardly getting that free of charge.

I doubt many people would willingly put their lives on the line for a "free" operation. People join the military because of a sense of duty to serve and protect their country. The mission always comes first, even for someone that is trans.

Besides, the military just said they are going keep letting trans people serve with honor and respect until there are new directives issued. Who would have thought tweeting something doesn't count?

Posted on: 7/27 12:51
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Monroe wrote:
Another huuuuuge win! 10 billion dollar factory to be built, great manufacturing jobs!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2 ... ngs-foxconn-to-wisconsin/


Let's just take a closer look at this "huuuuuge win!" shall we. Wisconsin is giving Foxcon tax breaks to the tune of 3 billion dollars to create "at least 3,000 jobs". That means that the US Govt. just paid a private company $1 million per job that pays $54,000 per year. But you ask, what about the 13,000 jobs that Foxcon says it will eventually have? Okay, fair point. We just reduced the investment to a little under $231,000 per job. We're getting there. Now let's figure in the state's estimate of indirect jobs that would be created, and add another 22,000 jobs, Add all the jobs up and we get to ~$86,000 the state of Wisconsin has paid a private company to build a factory that pays people $54,000 a year. This is all if Foxcon isn't blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

As Bloomberg points out, all of these promises made by Foxcon need to be viewed with a healthy does of skepticism. Not only is their 10 billion of promised investment in Wisconsin wildly out of proportion with their historical pace of capital investment, but Foxcon has also pledged 30 billion in other cities around the world in the last year, despite the fact that it is more money than the company has spent in the last 23 years.

Looks like the only winner here is the CEO of Foxcon.


Posted on: 7/27 12:43
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You are rejected for military service for many reasons, including being too tall or too short. Those damn heightists!

Posted on: 7/27 12:37
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Being accepted by the army isn't a civil right, sorry.

And I don't share the same definition of "progress" as you. For example, I don't think taxpayer funded sex changes (Obama ordered for all trans soldiers) is progress.

In fact, I think it is bizarre and regressive that trans people could have signed up for the army and received a free sex change. Happy Obama's nuttery was rolled back.

Posted on: 7/27 12:28
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While we are rolling back civil rights, why not go all the way back to when women couldn't vote and were considered property of their husbands? Let's all go back to the time when the only thing that mattered was you were white and male. Everyone else can go pound sand.

Posted on: 7/27 11:39
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Monroe wrote:
So our President is going back to the policy that existed under all 8 years of Obama? That's getting people wound up? Where were they during those 8 years??


Probably evolving and learning new information as trans people gained more representation. It's called progress. You should try it! What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to want to go backwards and keep oppressing the most vulnerable people just because it was once okay? Should we also go back to making being gay shameful and having people like Ellen have to hide their sexuality in order to have a career? You sound nuts and scared of progress.

Posted on: 7/27 10:44
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Another huuuuuge win! 10 billion dollar factory to be built, great manufacturing jobs!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2 ... ngs-foxconn-to-wisconsin/

Posted on: 7/27 10:22
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So our President is going back to the policy that existed under all 8 years of Obama? That's getting people wound up? Where were they during those 8 years??

Posted on: 7/27 10:14
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stillinjc wrote:
And he already came up with a catchy slogan that all the dude is guilty of is "working while Muslim". We need an independent counsel to investigate! Now!


Hey, at least we can agree on some things. There should be an independent investigation into these 3 brothers and their actions.

Posted on: 7/27 8:51
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TheBigGuy wrote:
talk about Trump deflecting.... you challenge me on my sources related to another major national security breach involving the democrat leadership and their foreign national IT Admins then you do not repond, but go ahead and start this foolishness?

I am very happy to see the news media proudly announce that "first woman" formerly a man has made the grade joining an elite US military unit... I am sure women all over the country are proud too. Especially after so many other washed out in basic training to join the group. That is real progress!


WTF are you on? I asked you for a source to something you posted. How is that challenging you on your sources? You provided a source, and I moved on to another topic. Was I supposed to thank you or something? Did you forget to take your meds this morning?


LOL, a little edgy Azul? You seemed to be questioning the the substance of my comments (probably would have too if you found any material weaknesses)... Let's Move On, Nothing To See Here.

BTW, I also just noticed the arrested IT Admin just lawyered up with a guy who has long established connections to the Clintons. This must be one of those pro bono cases those K-Street types are so happy to take on during the idle days of summer in the swamp.


And he already came up with a catchy slogan that all the dude is guilty of is "working while Muslim". We need an independent counsel to investigate! Now!

Posted on: 7/26 17:10
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Transgender people need hormones on a daily basis, that medicine needs refrigeration. Therefore a transgender solder cannot serve in the desert in active duty. The straight or even the gay soldiers that do not take hormones are taking his/her place on the battlefield. If you want equality then you should be able to go and fight any where. Trump is right on this.

Posted on: 7/26 16:09
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K-Lo2 wrote:
It's not at all clear that Trump consulted with anyone on this topic of his tweets du jour....

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tru ... crambling/article/2629740


"thousands of transgender troops" from the article? Really.... Who knew? So much for military secrets.


The New York Times said there were only 2,450 transgenders out of 1.3 million active duty soldiers. That's only 0.1%.

As President Trump said, it was ridiculous for the military to pay for transgenders' sex change operations, which is what Obama ordered. Plus they needed special treatment. I support the move.

Posted on: 7/26 16:01
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That's what you call a military secret? But we digress....

Posted on: 7/26 15:52
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It's not at all clear that Trump consulted with anyone on this topic of his tweets du jour....

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tru ... crambling/article/2629740


"thousands of transgender troops" from the article? Really.... Who knew? So much for military secrets.

Posted on: 7/26 15:50
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It's not at all clear that Trump consulted with anyone on this topic of his tweets du jour....

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tru ... crambling/article/2629740

Posted on: 7/26 13:42
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TheBigGuy wrote:
talk about Trump deflecting.... you challenge me on my sources related to another major national security breach involving the democrat leadership and their foreign national IT Admins then you do not repond, but go ahead and start this foolishness?

I am very happy to see the news media proudly announce that "first woman" formerly a man has made the grade joining an elite US military unit... I am sure women all over the country are proud too. Especially after so many other washed out in basic training to join the group. That is real progress!


WTF are you on? I asked you for a source to something you posted. How is that challenging you on your sources? You provided a source, and I moved on to another topic. Was I supposed to thank you or something? Did you forget to take your meds this morning?


LOL, a little edgy Azul? You seemed to be questioning the the substance of my comments (probably would have too if you found any material weaknesses)... Let's Move On, Nothing To See Here.

BTW, I also just noticed the arrested IT Admin just lawyered up with a guy who has long established connections to the Clintons. This must be one of those pro bono cases those K-Street types are so happy to take on during the idle days of summer in the swamp.

Posted on: 7/26 13:16
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TheBigGuy wrote:
talk about Trump deflecting.... you challenge me on my sources related to another major national security breach involving the democrat leadership and their foreign national IT Admins then you do not repond, but go ahead and start this foolishness?

I am very happy to see the news media proudly announce that "first woman" formerly a man has made the grade joining an elite US military unit... I am sure women all over the country are proud too. Especially after so many other washed out in basic training to join the group. That is real progress!


WTF are you on? I asked you for a source to something you posted. How is that challenging you on your sources? You provided a source, and I moved on to another topic. Was I supposed to thank you or something? Did you forget to take your meds this morning?

Posted on: 7/26 13:00
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Okay, just so I understand you, you think people with medical/psychiatric issues are pathetic? Or, are the people that want to defend minorities in this country from the oppressive backwards thinking politicians that want to role back civil rights the ones that are pathetic?

Never mind the fact that the Trump administration did this for pure political gains. When asked about the decision, a Trump administration official said "This forces Democrats in Rust Belt states like Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin to take complete ownership of this issue. How will blue collar voters in these states respond when senators up for re-election in 2018 like Debbie Stabenow are forced to make their opposition to this a key plank of their campaigns?"

If someone can pass the "tough for a good reason" exams to get into the military, what would being transgendered have to do with it? Is being gay just a psychiatric issue as well?



talk about Trump deflecting.... you challenge me on my sources related to another major national security breach involving the democrat leadership and their foreign national IT Admins then you do not repond, but go ahead and start this foolishness?

I am very happy to see the news media proudly announce that "first woman" formerly a man has made the grade joining an elite US military unit... I am sure women all over the country are proud too. Especially after so many other washed out in basic training to join the group. That is real progress!

Posted on: 7/26 12:39
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Okay, just so I understand you, you think people with medical/psychiatric issues are pathetic? Or, are the people that want to defend minorities in this country from the oppressive backwards thinking politicians that want to role back civil rights the ones that are pathetic?

Never mind the fact that the Trump administration did this for pure political gains. When asked about the decision, a Trump administration official said "This forces Democrats in Rust Belt states like Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin to take complete ownership of this issue. How will blue collar voters in these states respond when senators up for re-election in 2018 like Debbie Stabenow are forced to make their opposition to this a key plank of their campaigns?"

If someone can pass the "tough for a good reason" exams to get into the military, what would being transgendered have to do with it? Is being gay just a psychiatric issue as well?


Posted on: 7/26 11:48
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stillinjc wrote:
Abhorrent behavior is making a mountain out of the transgender molehill by liberals. Done with gay equality? Let's find another issue to rally behind. What could it be, what could it be? Oh, transgender... never mind it is a minuscule percentage of population, and really a psychiatric issue. Let's rally!!! Equality! Pathetic.


You think equality is pathetic? You think people wanting to fight for, and defend, their country is pathetic? You and Yvonne must get along great.


Nice deflection. Can you read with understanding? People with psychiatric/medical issues is what I wrote pretty clearly.

Sorry, but no equality there. Medical exams for the military are pretty tough, and for a good reason.


Posted on: 7/26 11:38
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