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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to the multi-use courts included in only one of the four concepts, but I wouldn't get too hung up on that. Even if it is called a tennis court, it can still be used for other activities.

I would like "D" - but with the south tennis court replaced by an expanded south dog run, and the north dog run removed, but that is not one of the choices.

Of the four concepts I prefer "C" - since two tennis courts aren't needed, and the play area in the NW section with the raised strutures degrades the sight line. Also, dog owners seem not to be happy with "D" - and I want the dogs playing in the dog run and not the pet free area.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 21:10
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How is the balloting system? Is it choose 1, plurality wins; choose 1, majority wins; rank 4 instant run off?

If the vote is relatively evenly divided between each of the plans, A and B are at a big disadvantage being that the plans are virtually identical.

or even worse, people could end up splitting between A,B, and D, leading to a plurality in C, though A,B,and D are the most similar.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 21:09
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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ianmac47 has summed up my problem.

The options as presented mean the only way to get a multi-sport surface is to also vote for a split and moved dog run.

It will be a terrible shame if the multi-sport area becomes collateral damage to the dog-owners wish for a large dog run.

The multisport area had widepsread support on all the previous ballots and in all the previous meetings.

Robin.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 20:46
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Brewster's Tweak is a great suggestion! Doesn't affect the small dog run (my neighbor is active in VVP Dog Run and will use HP dog run as closer), gives a bigger area to the large dogs too.

Also, I agree with DanL that both courts should be "multi-use" so that their usage is maximized for whatever group wants to use this area. That flexibility goes a long way towards satisfying more folks IMO.

Hamilton Park is for everyone.

Quote:

DanL wrote:
So the initiative is to Vote Concept D - with the Brewster Tweak.

Makes a lot of sense - the dog run becomes more attractive to encourage its use, keeps the active uses on the east side of the park, even buffering the traffic and activity. More sense that the putting green concept....

Is there any reason not to make both tennis courts multi-use, if they can still be used for tennis?

Of course, except perhaps for those who live on the park, whatever we end up with is not the end of the world....





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brewster wrote:
Quote:

tern wrote:
Sound great, but people are saying that it is too late to change the options and these are the four we have to vote on.

Robin.


It seems to me that this is more of a tweak than a real option change. Perhaps we can find out more before the ballot.

I would think that a plan that makes the multisports, parents, small dog owners, and property owners on 9th happy, and could make the large dog owners happy with a relatively small revision, should be given a chance, even if that revision isn't in the ballot. Steve Fulop and the contractor are clearly trying to be accommodating and make this work.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 18:39
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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One question actually: how will the construction be managed? Will the whole park be closed while under renovation or will quadrants be closed one at a time?

Posted on: 2007/5/17 18:33
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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I think the problem here is that the "final plans" are being presented as "choose the layout you want in the park" but in fact, its really more "choose what features you want."

A,B, and D are, as far as the tennis courts are concerned, identical. So why is D the only one with a multi-use surface? The initial balloting should have determined whether there would or would not be multi-use surfaces so that at this phase the voting was about the layout rather than the features.

The same is true of A&B. These are identical except for the putting green. But some people might vote against the putting green but want plan B, and others might vote for A because they want the putting green. But Basically, anyone voting for A or B are voting for same layout and selecting a preference for or against a putting green-- not expressing a preference for a different layout.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 18:11
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quote:

brewster wrote:

...Would this make D more palatable?

No? I can?t speak for all dog-owners, but IMO, I still consider Concept D the worse design.

I see your point about the size but I think you?re wasting resources when you plan for 2 separate, ?free-standing? dog-runs vs. 1 run with a divider for large/small dogs. If you assume a design similar to the VVP run and use the Concept D approach, you end up with 2 fence systems, pouring 2 separate concrete forms to hold the surface, 2 drainage systems, etc. I applaud your creativity for suggesting to move the tennis court 15 feet EAST; I?m no expert, but that has to be a more expensive proposition that just resurfacing it in it?s current location, no?..

I also think both dog-owners and the public that wants nothing to do with dogs would both be happier if legal, off-leash activity was confined to one segment. Unfortunately, Concept D puts off-leash dogs in 2 segments, both closer to the center of the park.

Quote:

brewster wrote:
...Keep in mind that this idea leaves the small dog run intact, greatly increasing the overall dog run area over the A,B & C, and the 2 separate runs seems to have a lot of support....

I?ve never suggested eliminating the small dog run. My suggestion was to eliminate the ?Game Table? area from the same segment that the dog-run is in so that you could give the dog-run the same footprint of the playground area in Concept D. You?d have a divider (similar to VVP) separating the large and small dog sections, but you still have large dog / small dog areas within the single concrete form, perimeter fence, drainage system, etc.

The only positive I can see in Concept D is that it keeps the integrity of the hub and 8-spoke design. The other concepts allow one of the playgrounds to straddle segments.

Brewster ? curious what you CAD program estimates for:
- what?s the square footage of a tennis court?...
- what?s the square footage of the dog-run in Concept A, B and C if you eliminate the ?Game Table? area and use the whole segment?...

Posted on: 2007/5/17 18:09
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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So the initiative is to Vote Concept D - with the Brewster Tweak.

Makes a lot of sense - the dog run becomes more attractive to encourage its use, keeps the active uses on the east side of the park, even buffering the traffic and activity. More sense that the putting green concept....

Is there any reason not to make both tennis courts multi-use, if they can still be used for tennis?

Of course, except perhaps for those who live on the park, whatever we end up with is not the end of the world....





Quote:

brewster wrote:
Quote:

tern wrote:
Sound great, but people are saying that it is too late to change the options and these are the four we have to vote on.

Robin.


It seems to me that this is more of a tweak than a real option change. Perhaps we can find out more before the ballot.

I would think that a plan that makes the multisports, parents, small dog owners, and property owners on 9th happy, and could make the large dog owners happy with a relatively small revision, should be given a chance, even if that revision isn't in the ballot. Steve Fulop and the contractor are clearly trying to be accommodating and make this work.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 18:06
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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? ?Church Square Park in Hoboken is about a dozen blocks from Hamilton Park, this is not an example from the other side of the world, but a nearby area that (perhaps) illustrates the development pressures we will face going forward on our neighborhood infrastructure.

Sensationalism and hyperbole?..how about the statements equating removing the basketball court to gated communities and the private Bryant Park. Last I looked, Washington Square Park, certainly a peoples park did not have basketball courts. The court stays because the community overwhelmingly supports it, not because removing it maks HP a gated community.



Quote:

G_Elkind wrote:
Sorry Dan_L but you've struck out with your post.

You're entitled to your personal opinion, but you've stooped to unnecessary hyperbole and a frankly unfair (and inaccurate) comment about Hamilton Park being paved over.

It's one thing to dislike the city's approach to handling redevelopment plan processes (which leaves much to be desired), but the entire park redesign process for Hamilton Park has been one of the most open and transparent I've experienced since I moved to JC in 1983.

(I would have expected such comments from a few others in the HP environs who don't mind intentionally distorting reality, but you should know better as the President of Civic JC.)

All the best.

Geoff


Posted on: 2007/5/17 17:53
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quote:

tern wrote:
Sound great, but people are saying that it is too late to change the options and these are the four we have to vote on.

Robin.


It seems to me that this is more of a tweak than a real option change. Perhaps we can find out more before the ballot.

I would think that a plan that makes the multisports, parents, small dog owners, and property owners on 9th happy, and could make the large dog owners happy with a relatively small revision, should be given a chance, even if that revision isn't in the ballot. Steve Fulop and the contractor are clearly trying to be accommodating and make this work.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 16:35
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Sound great, but people are saying that it is too late to change the options and these are the four we have to vote on.

Robin.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 13:17
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Agreed? Concept D makes the least sense from a dog-owners perspective: 2 dog runs of equal size (one for small dogs, one for large dogs) in different segments. I?m surprised that was even considered by the architects.
That seems to be the only flaw in D as far as I'm concerned. I'm thrilled they added this design to the choices,as I think it greatly improves the layout of the childrens features. Given that the parking spots on McWilliams are to be returned to the park, I wonder if the north court could be bumped over east to enlarge the dog run. I imported the drawing into CAD and scaled it using the size of the tennis court. Here's the relative sizes of the 2 proposed dog runs and increased size runs for larger dogs. Keep in mind that this idea leaves the small dog run intact, greatly increasing the overall dog run area over the A,B & C, and the 2 separate runs seems to have a lot of support. in square feet: Concept D large dog run=4391 concept A,B &C=7733 D enlarged by 10 ft= 5730 D enlarged by 15 ft= 6327 As you can see, the 15' enlargement only takes the run to the current court fence, and we should be gaining 20' from the parking. Given that they're resurfacing the courts, adding 15" to one side and taking it off the other shouldn't be that expensive. Would this make D more palatable? Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Posted on: 2007/5/17 4:23
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quote:
BrightMoment wrote:

All of you here making last minute tweaking suggestions about this or that idea, dog runs, tennis courts, multi-use courts, etc, should have come to the meetings over the last year and made your ideas known!...


Quote:

4bailey wrote:
I was there and I certainly tried - I had my hand up, but I didn?t shout to get myself recognized. Trust me,? it?s hard to get a word in edgewise with some of the ?usual suspects? at these things.

Quote:

BrightMoment wrote:

...The process of "idea gathering" is over...

With all due respect, BM? NOT! As far as I know, all these plans are just on paper and they?re going be tweaked all along the way to implementation for all kinds of reasons.

I?d encourage everyone who has an interest to Vote on June 9th for the option of your choice AND (assuming it?s a paper ballot) write in any/all suggestions you have on the ballot. Fill up those margins!... Not that anyone is under any obligation to read them, but it?s worth the shot.


I agree 4bailey about writing in suggestions on the ballot, my point was simply that this ballot is our last opportunity to make our voices heard and all should come vote June 9th and not decry the process as Janet Allen did that it was undemocratic, after the fact.

As to raising your hand at the mtgs and not getting heard due to "it?s hard to get a word in edgewise with some of the ?usual suspects? at these things.", I concur! Certain individuals, all hell let's say it straight out, "Janet Allen" took time away from others to speak until she was shouted to "Sit Down!"

Posted on: 2007/5/16 20:28
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quote:

BrightMoment wrote:
All of you here making last minute tweaking suggestions about this or that idea, dog runs, tennis courts, multi-use courts, etc, should have come to the meetings over the last year and made your ideas known!...

I was there and I certainly tried - I had my hand up, but I didn?t shout to get myself recognized. Trust me,? it?s hard to get a word in edgewise with some of the ?usual suspects? at these things.
Quote:

BrightMoment wrote:

...The process of "idea gathering" is over...

With all due respect, BM? NOT! As far as I know, all these plans are just on paper and they?re going be tweaked all along the way to implementation for all kinds of reasons.

I?d encourage everyone who has an interest to Vote on June 9th for the option of your choice AND (assuming it?s a paper ballot) write in any/all suggestions you have on the ballot. Fill up those margins!... Not that anyone is under any obligation to read them, but it?s worth the shot.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 19:13
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All of you here making last minute tweaking suggestions about this or that idea, dog runs, tennis courts, multi-use courts, etc, should have come to the meetings over the last year and made your ideas known! The process of "idea gathering" is over and on June 9th we will be voting on what has been discussed ad nauseum over several years.

Kudos to the HPNA for their long survey process, Steven Fulop and other council members, and members of the general public who made the time to make their opinions known at public meetings and share ideas over the last several years.

Please at least show up to vote particularly you Johnny-come-latelys with shoulda, woulda, coulda:

Quote:
Jen Greeely wrote:

The final ballot for the Hamilton Park Renovation will be held at the Hamilton Park June Park Festival.

Date: Saturday, June 9 (rain date Sunday, June 10)
Time: 11am to 5pm
Place: Hamilton Park

You can preview or download the park layout ballot options online here:

Four Concept Designs for Hamilton Park

Absentee ballots are available but must be requested by Saturday, June 2nd.

Please e-mail hpnajc@gmail.com or call 201-222-9070 to request a ballot. You must include your name(s) and physical address in the request and an absentee ballot with return instructions will be delivered to your residence. Voting is open to all Jersey City residents aged 18 and over.

Questions? Email us at hpnajc@gmail.com or visit the
HPNA Blog for updates and announcements.

Once again, many thanks to all who have participated, volunteered, and otherwise helped move this process along. Special thanks to Councilman Fulop and the Jersey City Division of Architecture for their work in getting this project off the ground.

Hope to see you on June 9th at the ballot table!
~ Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association

Posted on: 2007/5/16 18:33
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quote:

ianmac47 wrote:
Frankly the small dog park side of Van Vorst is underused, relative to the larger dog size.

Quote:

tern wrote:
...I worry that option D, the only option which incorporates making one of the tennis courts into a multi-use sport area, will be vote down by dog owners opposed to the split dog run design that option D also contains.


Agreed? Concept D makes the least sense from a dog-owners perspective: 2 dog runs of equal size (one for small dogs, one for large dogs) in different segments. I?m surprised that was even considered by the architects.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 18:11
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It is unfortunate that the multi-use sport field option is tied to the splitting and relocation of the dog run.

I worry that option D, the only option which incorporates making one of the tennis courts into a multi-use sport area, will be voted down by dog owners opposed to the split dog run design that option D also contains.

Robin.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 18:04

Edited by tern on 2007/5/16 18:23:51
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Frankly the small dog park side of Van Vorst is underused, relative to the larger dog size.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 17:41
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Interesting concepts? but here?s how I would suggest tweaking it regarding the dog run and ?pet-free? area.

Why not move the ?game table area? to another section of the park (maybe where the proposed ?putting green? is)?... That way you could increase the dog-run closer to the 1/8 segment size ? with landscaping for buffering you?ll never get the entire 1/8, so every square yard counts. Increasing the size of the run gets it closer to the ?2 tennis-court-size? sweet-spot identified in the HP survey.

After that, divide the dog-run area with fencing into 75% for large dogs, 25% small dog. Even though that?s a different ratio than the 2/3 to 1/3 in VVP, the small dog area will still be much larger than its counterpart in VVP.

Take another entire 1/8 lawn segment and declare it ?pet free?. My only suggestion for the lawn declared ?pet-free? is that it shouldn?t be adjacent to the dog-run. Otherwise, I?m agnostic on which lawn is designated ?pet-free?.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 17:37
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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The final ballot for the Hamilton Park Renovation will be held at the Hamilton Park June Park Festival.

Date: Saturday, June 9 (rain date Sunday, June 10)
Time: 11am to 5pm
Place: Hamilton Park


You can preview or download the park layout ballot options online here:

Four Concept Designs for Hamilton Park

Absentee ballots are available but must be requested by Saturday, June 2nd.
Please e-mail hpnajc@gmail.com or call 201-222-9070 to request a ballot. You must include your name(s) and physical address in the request and an absentee ballot with return instructions will be delivered to your residence. Voting is open to all Jersey City residents aged 18 and over.

Questions? Email us at hpnajc@gmail.com or visit the
HPNA Blog for updates and announcements.

Once again, many thanks to all who have participated, volunteered, and otherwise helped move this process along. Special thanks to Councilman Fulop and the Jersey City Division of Architecture for their work in getting this project off the ground.

Hope to see you on June 9th at the ballot table!
~ Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association

Posted on: 2007/5/16 16:32
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ANNOUNCEMENT

The final ballot for the renovation of Hamilton Park is postponed as we wait for the design to be finalized through the architecture design firm and the City of Jersey City. It had been tentatively scheduled for later this month, and will now most likely be held in May. Absentee ballot requests will be accepted once the date is firmly set.

Please circulate this notice with your neighbors and affiliated groups. We hope to have the plans and announce a final ballot date soon. Thank you for your help in getting the word out.

Posted on: 2007/4/13 15:22
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Whoever the facilitator was, did an ordinary job - it could have been handled better when Minnie started using up everyones valueable time listening to herself talk.

Posted on: 2007/4/3 23:42
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Sorry Dan_L but you've struck out with your post.

You're entitled to your personal opinion, but you've stooped to unnecessary hyperbole and a frankly unfair (and inaccurate) comment about Hamilton Park being paved over.

It's one thing to dislike the city's approach to handling redevelopment plan processes (which leaves much to be desired), but the entire park redesign process for Hamilton Park has been one of the most open and transparent I've experienced since I moved to JC in 1983.

(I would have expected such comments from a few others in the HP environs who don't mind intentionally distorting reality, but you should know better as the President of Civic JC.)

All the best.

Geoff


Posted on: 2007/4/3 21:45
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That link to the park in Hoboken made me very sad, I used to play in that park as a kid. I was surprised at my emotional reaction to the pictures of the tree cut down.

Anyway, what are the chances of a picnic area in Hamilton park where you could spread a blanket and enjoy the sun where dogs were strictly prohibited so that you wouldn't have to chill in dog urine?

Posted on: 2007/4/3 17:31
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Dan, you were at the last park meeting, so should know better than to insinuate that the HP is being paved over and that the old growth trees will be cut down.

The healthy old growth trees will NOT be cut down. Some of the younger trees in the raised bed area may have to go, since the roots would be exposed when the raised beds are removed, which is the result of the poor design in the 70's.
There will be no additional courts in the park.
The dog run will have a natural stone surface, and will most likely be surrounded by plants and shrubs. The addition of the dog run will lead the way to the establishment of a pet free area - for the first time in the history of the park. This will likely be surrounded by low hedges or a fence. Once the dog run is built, it will be the only area in the park where dogs will be allowed off leash.
The only new area of significance that will be paved over is the expanded children' play area. The demographics the neighborhood are changing. Many families with young children will be moving in, and most people agree that the expanded children's play area is urgently needed.

Take a look at the poor condition of the lawns. Confining off leash dogs to the dog run, and only allowing team sports to be played in the paved courts will take much of the stress off of the grass.

The east side of the park will soon be restored to the original lay out - where the angles parking spaces are on McWilliams place. This will result in MORE park space and less paved area.

What we will end up with is a passive park with active areas, and more gardens.
This is something that we can all live with.

Posted on: 2007/4/3 14:01
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Is this the future of Hamilton Park - see these comments about Church Square Park in Hoboken - A Death in a Park

While Hoboken managed to keep the building heights including the recent "Center Field" consistant with the surrounding area (unlike JC with St. Francis), it seems to have turned what was a nice mixed use park into a "redevelopment zone" playground.... and has paved over most of the park.

Posted on: 2007/4/3 2:08
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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This is just bloody painful. Have people never looked at architectural renderings before?

Posted on: 2007/3/28 12:40
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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The complete comments by Janet Allen at the meeting on 3.22.06. It was too long for a single video, so was split into two parts. A bit is missing at the beginning:

Posted on: 2007/3/28 3:36
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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I'll say this as simply as possible.

The HPNA survey results reflected an overwhelming number in favor of keeping the basketball court.

As a personal observer (along with many others) of the voting process conducted by the HPNA, the "under 18" age group was not disproportionately represented in any one of the five surveys conducted, nor did they vote in great numbers generally speaking -- especially for the vote regarding the basketball court.

No trickery here; no silent majority. Like our local municipal elections, those who came out to vote, did; those who didn't, didn't.

A final note. The HPNA has had no monopoly on conducting surveys. There has been more than ample opportunity during the past 2+ years for any other group or persons with a professed strong interest in the park to conduct their own surveys. The stark fact remains that no one else did.

Councilman Fulop, the City and it's chosen architects have provided many subsequent opportunities for additional community input, and for conducting a most open and transparent process. They should be commended for this.

It's time to bring closure to this stage of the process and move on to vote on the final plans next month.

Let's get the Hamilton Park reconstruction process underway as soon as possible.

'nuff said...

Posted on: 2007/3/28 2:22
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Can't parts of the park be leased for a nominal fee for certain hours out of the school day-- that is to say, playground X is leased to School Y between 1pm and 2pm Mondays and Wednesdays. Also, if kiddies are in school, doesn't that mean no one is going to be around to use the playground anyway?

Posted on: 2007/3/27 20:44
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