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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Quite a regular
 
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There is not a cabal that want to cut down the trees in Hamilton Park, eliminate gardens and turn the park into a giant sports recreation facility. Why not see the plans BEFORE making assumptions?
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Posted on: 2006/8/27 15:27
Edited by 25mcwilliams on 2006/8/27 15:49:30
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
 
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My agenda is to do everything possible to get a good turnout at the meeting because it -- IS -- the meeting to give constructive input on the design and make changes. If the turnout is poor... the plan will pass with flying colors. And I'm very concerned because... with the exception of JC List... I haven't seen anything about this meeting.
HPNA conducted a study in Hamilton Park, T&M conducted a city wide study, and Steve Fulop is very much involved in the process... and will be even more from this point forward because he is our Ward E Councilman. Those are the facts.
Posted on: 2006/8/27 13:20
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Home away from home
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Get a grip Minnie, you're now blaming the HPNA, Steve Fulop and myself (that's a laugh!) if T&M Design decides NOT to use your agenda for a "passive park"?? Well, notwithstanding that I barely have influence in my own household, and Steve Fulop problems getting the council and Mayor to listen to him as he's generally voting in the minority, that leaves HPNA and even they have limited membership. What you're saying is cause myself and the others stated our opinions, contrary to your own, that we are now some sinister slayer of trees. That's just plain idiotic. What you're also saying is you're afraid that the democratic process and T&M Design, who the City hired to make this decision, go against your agenda then the aforementioned 3 become Minnie's "Axis of Evil"! When you first announced the start of FOHP I supported you here on JCList and stated so. I even said so when I met you in person. But with your bullying tactics and shrill damning of anyone who disagrees with you, you're starting to sound like George Bush who's all for Democracy so long as it goes his way, his democracy. If you want to complain about notices for the meeting, why don't you [b]call/email T&M since it's their meeting. Ask them how they've notified people. I know that I received notices stating where throughout JC the meetings were being held, time, date, etc, with no editorial like you have above. I agree with Joshua that this process should be fun, that obviously the HPNA Renovation Plan didn't try to prioritize input since that was not the purpose of the plan: it's purpose was to collect the widest assortment of input from all of JC who were interested in voting. The public meetings T&M are holding will do the same: provide input from widely, divergent viewpoints. The fact that only several hundred did vote is not unusual, as if you vote in any election here in JC the apathy is typical of most of America: lousy! I also find it abhorrent that you would cast aspersions on Sam Pesin who singlehandledly has done more to support open spaces and parks then any of us: Including you, Minnie.
Posted on: 2006/8/27 5:30
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I have not seen any fliers. Except for the ones we submitted ourselves to get the word out. Important to get the word out so it's a democratic process and include those folks that did not get a chance to participate... because it's not too late. Australian.... it's about you too, if you care. Bobblehead.... take a look at 6th and Marin.... fence, lock, stock and barrel. And I'm sorry that your child fell because of someone on a bike. I got hit in the head by a group of men playing cricket which spurred me to get REALLY involved. Push for a passive park. It's worth it and doable. Sam Pesin wants a a democratic process in Liberty State Park in regards to the WTC memorial... and I want a democratic process in Hamilton Park. Whatever the community decides on a whole after seeing the plans... I'm okay with that. I just hope there is a good turnout. And I don't agree that those that missed the balloting process should not be allowed to participate. That is plain wrong.
Posted on: 2006/8/27 4:34
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Just can't stay away
 
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That last statement was kind of odd. Seems based on the initial community response it was "Sure!" as well. From the report: Ballot 4, Question 3 (see page 96 of report) Would you like an enclosed dog run (where dogs can run off-leash) in Hamilton Park? A. Yes, I would like an enclosed dog run. (235 votes; 89%) B. No, I do not want an enclosed dog run. (29 votes; 11%) Ballot 4, Question 4 (see page 98 of report) If a dog run is adopted in Hamilton Park, what overall physical size do you think is most appropriate? (Note that the tennis court is only used as a reference for size, a dog run would not replace the tennis courts, nor will it necessarily be the same shape. Location of a dog run, similar to the location of all amenities in the park, is subject to the City?s overall Master Plan design.) A. Roughly the size of one tennis court. (62 votes; 24%) B. Roughly the size of two tennis courts. (113 votes; 44%) C. Roughly the size of three tennis courts. (79 votes; 31%)
Posted on: 2006/8/24 16:05
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I'm going to say what we say when we have disputes or disagreements within the Conservancy.
"Remember, this is supposed to be fun!" Hamilton Park is getting much deserved funds for a long overdue makeover. This is a chance to participate in the process to have a gem of a park in downtown. Please approach the process with that in mind, and not as a way to carry out internal disputes within the various neighborhood groups or personal gripes. I do not know all of the specifics of the ballotting process, etc, but I certainly don't see grounds for calling it fraudulent or unfair. One comment I would make is that the balloting process should be the beginning, not the end, of the decision making process. Having seen the results, I think it is not particularly surprising that for the most part, people said they want more of everything. Do people want basketball and tennis courts for active recreation? Sure! Do people want a children's garden for the neighboring school? Sure! Do people want some passive open space just to sit down and chill? Sure! Do people want space allocated to a children's playground for kids to play in? Sure! Do people want a dog run? Well, um, let's not get into that one. But you get the point. We live in an area with limited open space, limited recreational amenities. And like most people, we all want more. My concern is that by asking these questions over a series of ballots, and simply asking "Yes" or "No" in separate questions, it avoids the issue of prioritizing limited resources (both in terms of money and in terms of space in the park) and viewing the park as a whole. If you ask me separately if I would like a porterhouse steak, twin lobster tails, a dozen oysters, a corned beef and pastrami sandwich from Ben's Deli, a bottle of fine Bordeaux, a six pack of my favorite microbrew, some chocolate cheesecake, and an ice cream sundae, I'd say you betcha! But neither my wallet nor my stomach will allow me to have all of that (let's ignore those days at the rodizios in the Ironbound district of Newark). So as the community goes into this process, just remember that there should be further courteous discussion and input to make this park as good as it can be. Hamilton Park deserves nothing less. Lastly, I would also say that I am surprised some people are questioning the legitimacy of Sam Pesin's input. This is a man who has tirelessly fought for open space and preservation throughout Jersey City. And yes, he does have a specific matter at stake here to ensure that the schoolchildren can use the park too. That's not a bad thing. Remember, this is supposed to be fun! Joshua Parkhurst President Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
Posted on: 2006/8/24 15:27
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Yes, that's true, a children's garden in a public park would be open to all members of the community. And an adult is free to play on the playground structures, too, go right ahead. It would just seem a little weird. Seriously, though, I don't know where "private" and "limiting" comes from, those seem to be your words. Do you think there will be high fences and barbed wire to prevent anyone other than children to get in? I mean, really--who do you think is going to do the ACTUAL work of breaking ground, hauling soil, purchasing seeds or plants, weeding, etc.? Parents, and anyone they can get to help. Having a garden with a regular schedule of events encouraging kids to come help plant and tend flowers and vegetables, so that they can have some introduction and psychological investment in the garden and the park in general, would be a real plus, I think.
Posted on: 2006/8/24 14:41
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"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting. |
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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> BTW.... where the heck are the newsletters and fliers
> announcing this baby to the public? I saw some fliers on doorsteps last night. Robin.
Posted on: 2006/8/24 13:53
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Just can't stay away
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Its all about me me me me, what about us us us us.
Make a submission, go through the process and move on!
Posted on: 2006/8/24 13:15
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Home away from home
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I'm looking forward to that shot of Haldol.
There can be no private gardens limiting people that want to use it based on their ages. BTW.... where the heck are the newsletters and fliers announcing this baby to the public? Was it in the newspapers?
Posted on: 2006/8/24 11:43
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Gee Minnie, maybe insisting on planting your gardens when everyone knew there was a renovation coming wasn't such a brilliant idea. These upcoming meetings are going to be fun, just like those HPNA park committee meetings that you made painfully long with your insistence that you were right and 8 other residents were wrong about every issue. Some things never change I see. Given our past experience and your recent postings, it sure looks like if they want to have a productive community meeting they should have a dart gun filled with Haldol standing by for you.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 15:00
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I'm going to wait until I see the plans before making suppositions about what is going to happen, whether trees will be torn down or not.
But as far as the trees go, those ornamental pear trees seem to be doing a great job of coming down on their own! If someone wants to give them a hand, and then plant a more stable ornamental tree elsewhere, great!
Posted on: 2006/8/23 14:48
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"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting. |
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Home away from home
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I hope very much that none of the mature trees will be removed.
Please reassure me that this is not planned. Robin.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 13:50
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Home away from home
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Your comment that the HPNA did not support gardens simply is not true,and you know that to be the case. As an organization we had no opinion one way or another. We just wanted the community at large to decide. Many HPNA board members personally, myself included did in fact support the idea of appropriate and professionally planned gardens.
What I find concerning is that you think its ok for you to have your private gardens but the garden pre school cannot have their gardens. We live in a society that has a preference for nuturing the development and well being of children. Supervised gardening sounds to me like a great way to give children an early sense of actualization and community contribution. I hope this string is put to rest soon.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 12:02
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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This issue isn't about whether it's important to protect kids..... we all know that's important... and all people are worthy of protection... that goes without saying.
The issue is that the balloting process being used to springboard this process contained some flaws and is crafted to appear it was handled using a democratic process... but in the 5 days the voting took place, the number of people that voted was just over a 1,100. Divide 1,100 by 5 days and you get a 220 people per vote. And there are thousands of people in downtown Hamilton Park alone... same for Harsimus Cove. Most participated during the two festivals and when shopping at the farmers market... because marketing was sparse. Half the time it never made the newspaper until the day before the vote. I looked over the ballots carefully.... before the HPNA kicked me off the board! And public comment supported flower gardens, overwhemingly. But the HPNA do not. Even with community support, they do not support it. They only support a small garden that they want to make exclusive for little kids and nobody else. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that for every structure that is moved or added that they are going to remove trees. So many trees will be cleared and we'll have lot's of activity, fences, cages, asphalt, team sports.... and history lost forever. It will soon be reality. If you don't care... you only have to do 'nothing' and it will happen. Stop and look reality in the face. Those trees are coming down. And when it happens.. you can thank the HPNA, Steve Fulop and Bright Moment. The battle for Hamilton Park is on now. Monday night August 30th, 7 pm, in the St. Francis Hospital.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 10:39
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Home away from home
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Bobblehead, I sent you a PM
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Posted on: 2006/8/23 4:06
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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The playground in the park has always needed a fence around it--I didn't know it was getting done, but I think it's a great idea. And I'm sure just about any parent that has a young child playing in that playground will agree. I can't think of another playground in the downtown area without some sort of fencing around it.
About a month ago, my kid got slammed by a bigger kid riding a bike through the play area and got knocked backwards and hit his head on the concrete. There are always older bikers and skateboarders doing jumps off those concerete pyramids while little kids are playing there. Maybe the city is making the effort because they realize that, sooner or later, some kid is going to get seriously hurt because the play area is poorly designed and, without a fence, creates an unsafe environment. It's easier for the city to erect a fence than enforce the "no biking" rule. Sorry if I think kids' safety is important, but I do. If that's bullshit, I'll live with it.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 3:28
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"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting. |
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I wish I had a buck for every person that has approached me to offer assistance in watering the community gardens.. until they learn what?s involved. For starters.. you unlock the gazebo basement and enter a dark musty basement to turn on the water, and then untangle and manage a 250 foot garden hose that the homeless people have relieved themselves on. Sounds like fun huh?
Early this spring, I wrote to our Mayor and requested that the City of Jersey City install water hookups for Friends of Hamilton Park, and put them close to the two community gardens to make it easier for our volunteers. We were not looking for anything fancy? no underground sprinklers? just to be able to access water closer to the gardens. But before I did this? I did some research and met with the Director of United Water, and talked with the Director of MUA. The cost to do this was minimal? it was $500. for materials and $1,500. for labor for a total of $2,000. BTW? installing water hookups was done in the Brunswick Community Garden for us a few years ago, and there was no cost and took all but 2 hours, so I was familiar with the process and knew that the pipes run under ground. I received a nice letter from the Business Administrator?s office, informing me that the City of Jersey City would fund the water installation. But get this? Steve Fulop informs me that it isn?t a good use of City money and he kills it. Earlier this month, I learned that money will be spent to put a fence around the current kids play area? and before the renovation. I asked if a child was hurt or something? Because it?s not located anywhere near 9th street and the park is suppose to be ripped up next year, right? Sam Pesin tells me it?s necessary! Sam Pesin from Liberty State Park who teaches at the Garden Pre School that will be moving into the St. Francis Hospital development is making decisions on where City money should be spent in Hamilton Park! And then I learned the gardens will be ripped out, and will not be replaced with more gardens? because they will interfere with structures. We can expect to find some daisies pushing up here and there? and that?s about it. So let me ask?.. who the hell plans a major park renovation and leaves out gardens? Who the hell plans a major park renovation and plans to add and relocate structures that requires butchering approximately 3-5 trees per structure? Wake up and smell the bullshit!
Posted on: 2006/8/23 2:36
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Not too shy to talk
 
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14 year olds have rights indeed, but not the right to vote. They go to schools, but they can't vote on how they are administered or who is on the school boards...clearly I could go into many other examples.
Posted on: 2006/8/23 0:32
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Home away from home
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No one's decided to "...allocate my(your)property tax dollars..." for anything. "Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association facilitated a community-driven effort to solicit the input from Jersey City residents" and that's what it is, INPUT. T&M was hired by the City to make the proposed plan. They will use the HPNA Renovation Plan as just one component for their recommended design and if you want to suggest they discount "...14 year olds..." who are equally Jersey City citizens with a right to use the park, then come on out to the meetings and state so. Quit hiding behind your "deathmask" and be counted like those others of us here, come out and state your case against teens at the meeting! 
Posted on: 2006/8/22 23:15
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Not too shy to talk
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Who's bright (no pun) idea was it to allow 14 year olds to allocate my property tax dollars - that were just raised 18%?
Posted on: 2006/8/22 22:53
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Home away from home
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I am unfortunately, not surprised when these rhetorical questions are asked,over, and over redux! Most if not all the answers to these queries are answered simply by visiting the several links posted in this topic thread alone. Not to mention the numerous topic threads on Hamilton Park Renovation Plan and the Ballot process that were posted here. Hamilton Park Today Hamilton Park, located in the Hamilton Park Historic District of Jersey City, is in desperate need of a renovation. The last full renovation of this historic park was in 1977, nearly 30 years ago. Although maintained by a very dedicated local community, with every passing year the infrastructure and amenities of the park fall into increasing disrepair. Safety issues such as adequate lighting, a safe children?s playground, and an enclosed dog run are among the top issues highlighted by Jersey City residents as immediate concerns to be addressed. The City of Jersey City has already committed $1.1 million to the Hamilton Park renovation for the fiscal budget year 2005-2006. In order to ensure that this the Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association facilitated a community-driven effort to solicit the input from Jersey City residents for the creation of a Master Plan by the City of Jersey City. Master Plan Community Input Balloting Process Obtaining community input for the creation of a Master Plan for the Hamilton Park Renovation took the form of a five-part balloting process from June through October in 2005. In all, a total of 1,108 ballots were cast by hundreds of JerseyCity residents on a variety of topics. Questions on these five ballots were comprehensive and covered everything from the overall layout and design of the park to all of its athletic amenities to proposed new features as suggested by community residentsin open-ended comment areas. All Jersey City residents were invited to participate in the balloting process and notices of voting dates were provided in local papers, community bulletin boards, newsletters, and electronic announcements. The response to this balloting process was overwhelmingly large and positive, with a total of 1,108 ballots cast over the course of five months.Voting was limited to Jersey City residents aged 14 and older and absentee ballots were made available for any Jersey City resident who requested it. In-person voting was held in Hamilton Park and lasted for six hours. Three ballots were held on Saturdays from 10 am to 4 pm and two ballots were held on Wednesday night from 2 pm to 8 pm, coinciding with the Hamilton Park Farmer?s Market, also sponsored by the Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association. Utilizing the data obtained from these ballots the City of Jersey City can be assured that the Master Plan for Hamilton Park will be a park that truly meets the needs of the community at large and restores this beautiful park to its magnificent splendor. Organization of Report The results and voter comments from all 1,108 ballots are presented in this report. On the next page is a list of the features and elements desired by the community. Each of these items are expanded upon in the following sections of this report. (continued at once again for the umpteenth time: http://www.hamiltonpark.org/PDFS/HP_R ... tion_Community_Report.pdf ) That took me less than 5 minutes to find, post and format. Jeezus Louise! 
Posted on: 2006/8/22 19:35
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Why would you not want a basketball court? I frequently see it being used for organised games, in addition to being in constant informal use.
It is probably the most well used, and therefore valuable part of the park. If noise at night is a problem then have a closing time at which the lights are switched off. Robin.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 19:10
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Quite a regular
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What are the requirements to vote? Do the voters have to be of age? Do they have to at least show proof that they are citizens? Residents of New Jersey? Are there safeguards to keep people from voting multiple times? Who counts the votes?
I find the overwhelming support for the basketball court surprising. When I speak to people in the neighborhood casually I'd say about 25% support it. Just seems weird to me.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 18:56
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Home away from home
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I posted this on another thread and will also repeat it here! Australian, A bit before your time on JClist things were way out of control. I stopped using my old nic "poppinintoo" and now use only my real name. If I don't have the guts to post it under my own name then I won't post it. Not saying that there is anything wrong with using an alias, sometimes we all have to vent. The problem is that some who come out here, pick a topic and try to control others perception with lies, distorted facts and personal attacks on others that are NOT public figures, is not my cup of tea.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 17:43
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Just can't stay away
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Maybe the Hamiliton park renovation group / committee should use the same principals as most Police departments. NO NAME, NO GENUINE CONTACT DETAILS, NO COMPLAINT.
Voicing one's opinion on JClist is one thing, but doesn't 'hold water' considering an alias is being used, especially when groups have conducted surveys and reports in a public and personal way.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 16:14
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Home away from home
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Bobble Head wrote:
x4 This was not a secret process. I seem to remember people hanging out in the park for hours--on five separate days--collecting survey responses after the survey was publicized. To add to your point, we counted the ballots in public and invited neighbors to help in the counting. One evening we were there in the dark in the dimly lit gazebo, getting eaten up by mosquitos.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 15:42
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Just can't stay away
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If I was at City Hall, I too would be sitting on my hands and doing nothing. It seems that residents argue about every small detail then getting united and making a FINAL presentation to council, then a united push to make it happen.
Some people need to be told to shut-up if they were not present when the initial and detailed survey and report was made - otherwise this project will never see the light of day. We don't live in a perfect world and no-one is perfect, but if this project is the 'best fit' for the majority of park uses then move forward. I would love to see a shade structure over the play equipment but then again I can put a hat and sun-screen on my child.
Posted on: 2006/8/22 15:25
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Home away from home
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x4 This was not a secret process. I seem to remember people hanging out in the park for hours--on five separate days--collecting survey responses after the survey was publicized. This is a city park. (There have been comments on this board about locking it up like Grammercy, which is silly.) And it's a large park, as far as downtown parks go--there is room for a playground AND basketball courts AND tennis courts AND a dog area AND a non-dog area AND gardens. It's a multi-use park in an urban area, and I think it works great, as long as people are courteous and respect each other's rights to use the park. And Minnie, what's up with demonizing a children's garden? From what I know, the school wants to maintain a small garden plot and organize weekend gardening activities for kids--it's not an uncommon occurance, there are "children's gardens" in many cities. Would you rather the children spend their weekends in the main gardens?
Posted on: 2006/8/22 14:51
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"Someday a book will be written on how this city can be broke in the midst of all this development." ---Brewster
Oh, wait, there is one: The Jersey Sting. |
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Quite a regular
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2005/8/16 2:53 Last Login : 2007/1/29 17:28 From Hamilton Park
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Many consider the dog run to be open space. It is not a covered structure. The old low concrete walls near the tables, the concrete pyramid and other remnants from the 70?s renovation should be gone, so that will open things up.
T&M has expertise in designing parks. Let's give them a chance. http://www.tandmassociates.com/ParksandRec.html Quote:
Posted on: 2006/8/22 14:42
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