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Hey LoudMouth, give me a break. You live in HP and don't know what's going on? There must be a dozen threads on this site, at least, all with postings from Sam, Geoff and others of the HPNA.

Hell, I'm not even a member and have enough sense to subscribe to their newsletter and emails which are prolific sometimes to the extreme.

Try going to their Yahoo Groups site and signing up, checking the web site for archived docs, etc.

That is if you're not just 'trollin", or one of Minnie's sailors!

HPNA-JC-Public@yahoogroups.com

www.hamiltonpark.org

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Please visit the HPNA Website at:

www.hamiltonpark.org

To receive our newsletters electronically, please register at our yahoo groups site at.

HPNA-JC-Public-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I havent heard much on the HPNA front, is it still in existance? Whats initatives are they working on, is there a website?

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darenot has a very good point here, but I'm not sure it's the point he thinks he has. HPNA is not a governmental arm. It's simply a private group that declared itself the representative of community interests before the city.

So what does that mean? First, in and of itself, the HPNA has no right or reason to exist. It derives its right and reason not just from how well it represents the community interests, but from the community's assessment of how well HPNA represents its interests. That's because every member of the community has an equal interest in the community. Particular people don't get (or at least don't deserve) special status just because they form a group that puts itself out as the community representative.

Let's be clear here: the HPNA represents the community at the community's pleasure, not the other way around.

And how do we judge the success of the group? I would think we judge by looking to its relations with the community it claims to represent. And does anybody here, darenot included, think the HPNA doesn't have it exactly backwards?

In their meetings, they set barriers to participation. They don't announce important topics to be covered in the meeting. They don't welcome dissenting opinions. They make it the community's job to reach out to them to find out what's going on. There's no real effort to discover and represent the community interest as the community sees it. Instead the HPNA seeks to represent the community's interest as the leadership of the HPNA sees it.

That's unacceptable. They've forgotten why they're there.

For those of you that don't attend HPNA meetings, Darenot's comment is an example of the lack of respect that HPNA shows towards people with differing opinions. Julio has many special talents, and was an active member and volunteer for years. Julio now wants nothing to do with the association.

An undemocratic HPNA does not serve the interests of the commmunity.

What should the HPNA do? Be accepting of other individuals and groups, and expand the membership by encouraging new members to participate. A democratic HPNA would be good for the community, and I would be be willing to work for such an organization.

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Article III, section 7 of the HPNA Constitution states that one of the purposes of the HPNA is to act as a spokesman for local residents at various city meetings.

Julio made a valid point that the HPNA fails to represent the community by remaining exclusive and undemocratic. Darenot, if you want to run HPNA like a private club, that?s fine, but don?t represent HPNA as a being a spokesman for the community.

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I don't fualt the HPNA for the fact that the city hasn't spent money on the park. The city can't seem to find money to fix basic infrastructural problems like recurrent flooding, or to address social problems like crime. I'm not holding my breath waiting for parks to become a priority of theirs. If the parks of this city are going to get fixed, it will have to be the citizenry that does it. The various PA's are supposed the support and coordinate those efforts.

Van Vorst Park looks good now because the community contributes time and effort to maintaining it. The VVPA supports that community effort.

My beef with the HPNA has to do with their their leadership style and attitude.

Their leadership style is underhanded and authoritarian. They are more concerned with maintaining their authority than in beautifying the park- this is made clear by their reaction to the "wildcat" plantings, which (by the way) make HP a much nicer place. It was this incident which first brought the HPNA and their skullduggery to my attention. Also the fact that they trashed my park (Van Vorst) and essentially said that the volunteers there had messed the place up. That pissed me off. First, because a lot of people put in alot of effort, made the park look good, and built community spirit (one of whom was me). Second, because the HPNA has apparently done precious little but criticize other neighborhoods, even when they are clearly outperforming HP.

Their attitude is innapropriate for this commnity, that is to say, it is the antithesis of everything that metropolitan american society ought to stand for. It is an attitude of demanding defernce (not only from the constituents of HP to the "leadership", but from other neighborhoods as well.) It is an attitude of "do what you are told." It is an attitude of "let's negotiate and coerce behnd closed doors, rather than debate in the public square." It is an attitude that is more appropriate for ruling subjects than for governing free men and women. It is an attiude that is more suited to applying clout for personal benefit, rather than synthesizing and representing the interests of those it claims to represent.

In the past it could be that the HPNA was in the vanguard of community organziations in Downtown JC. But in the past, downtown JC was a very different place. It was fractious, poor, disorganized, and lacking social capital and social cohesion. Now it is younger, brasher, more professional, more competent, and (importantly) more confident. The people of Downtown JC are no longer the sort of folks that are used to fearing, avoiding, or obeying authority. They are used to participating in it, and dealing with it as equals. they are used to constituting and voluntarily cooperating with the private associations of their communities.

Other neighborhood organizations seemd to have kept current with this changing demographic. the HPNA has not. I don't care how long they have lived here, I live here now. So its my city, and my community. So if anyone tells me to defer to them, I have an interesting but anatomically impossible counterproposal to make.

Van Vorst Park was renovated in 1999. Prior to that, it was atrocious. Run down paths, flooding in the middle. Really bad.

The city only has the money to renovate a certain amount of parks at any one time. Van Vorst had the job done in 1999, this past year Rev. Ercel Webb Park (formerly Lafayette Park) was renovated. I understand that Hamilton Park is up soon.

In the past HPNA, like the other downtown neighborhood associations, has been a important forum for the community. I wont comment on the current goings on, except to say two things. One, I hope differences can be resolved smoothly so the groups can get past infighting and work on bettering the neighborhood. Two, regardless of what you think of HPNA, you can't fault it for the fact that the city hasn't yet spent the money on renovating the park.

Joshua

You are done here because you got nothin'. So don't try and pretend you are walking away because you're "above it."

Do you have a response for this?:

""[the bylaws] were conceived of in a cabalistic manner, implemented stealthily, and used to stifle and control debate."

That's right. I didn't think so.

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No, different universes, you're in a clueless fantasyland. You obviously didn't live here when VVP got an extravagant $3m renovation because the mayor, Brett Schundler, lived on the park. It was borrowed money then, and our current crisis is a direct descendant of Schundler's financial shenanigans and funding of his pet projects. As I said, HP has gotten no capital expenditure in decades, and it's doubtful any park will ever again get the dollars per square foot that VVP did.

Since none of you let facts like the above stand in your way, Superfurry minnie and yourself can keep attacking your boogieman HPNA. I'm done here.

BTW, when is anyone from the HPNA going to address this:

"[the bylaws] were concieved of in a cabalistic manner, implemented stealthily, and used to stifle and control debate."

Truth hurts, huh?

Guess what darenot, I don't live in HP. I live in Van Vorst, so what? The fact that the HPNA board members who post here don't live in VVP didn't stop them from trashing my park, and our renovation projects. IF you can't take it, don't dish it out.

and as for "You all think HPNA has such mystical powers. "

Not at all. If you had mystical powers you would have magically uncrappified the park long ago. Actually, you have very little real power, as you are not (thank god) an arm of the government. As the community comes to value your opinions less and less (the more obviously dictatorial you become, the faster this process is) the more your power will slip away.

I am not personally affected by you in any way.

I just don't like bullies. I really don't like people who live in America, but think that their "station" demands deference. Take that crap back to Europe, it ain't gonna play here. IF you insult my park (VVP), insult my friend (Minnie), or insult my intelligence, you can expect me to come out swinging. So bite your lip and carry on, or get out of the ring.

BTW, when is the next plenary session of the supreme soviet of Hamilton Park? Have you airbrushed minnie's photos out of past documents yet?

The city is broke? That's why HP looks like it does? Van Vorst doesn't look like that. Do we live in different cities?
Are the sections of the park that FoHP fixed up not part of JC? Did they get some special funding fromt he city that the HPNA was denied?

I don't indict the community, it was the community that came out and planted flowers and trees in HP. An act that the HPNA typified as "vandalism."

Totally unrelated, but comparing me to the joker or penguin is pretty weak. You need to go back to school and develop some skillz son.

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If you're gonna have a battle on a public forum about a private issue, then anyone has a right to comment.

My only comment is that, while I do not live in HP or have ever attended a meeting or ever have an intention to, I find it hard to believe some of the remarks about minnie. I've seen her at work and play and believe she is an asset to HP.

Oh, and Justiceiro's post, regardless of how true/untrue it was, qualifies as the best post of the year.

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Okay, I have to admit it, I'm impressed. I haven't seen such a crew of delusional characters since Penguin, The Joker and The Riddler.

You all think HPNA has such mystical powers. You haven't a clue what you're talking about. They're just a few people trying their best for the community, some for a long time, some just starting, while everyone else ( including me) sits on their ass or "don't have the free time". The park looks like crap because the city is always broke and it hasn't been renovated in 30 or 40 years. One of the reasons that it hasn't is that other parks got city attention because HP looked better than most JC parks due to HPNA's modest efforts.

You indict the whole community with your nasty rant, not HPNA. Go peddle your stalin crap somewhere else, I bet you don't even live in HP.

Many years ago, in the fresh bloom of my youth, I had the opportunity to live in an ex-communist central european country for a few years.

This whole Hamilton park affair looks eerily familiar.

The more these HPNAholes talk, the more obvious their vanity, self-importance, and arrogance become. It would be irritating, but acceptable, to endure their overwheening pride if they had actually produced results; when it comes to government (public or private) I prefer competence over virtue if forced to choose between the two. But let's face it. The HPNA not only reek of pomposity, they suck at theur job.


Take a look at the park itself. A true paradise for the new socialist man, it is very reminiscent (minus the bits improved by the FoHP) of the park that used to moulder in front of my Czech prefab apartment block. Lots of (cracked) cement. A little weedy, got that "threadbare, not looked after appearance and awful neobrutalist "improvements" with a few decaying bits of prewar goodness here and there. All you need to do is put a statue of Lukashenko in place of the Gazebo, and you could be in Minsk.



Not surprising really. The park is, after all, looked after by the HPNA. One cannot produce gold from dung, after all. The park reflects the ossified and stalinistic gleichshaltung principles of the HPNA leadership.

Are Darenot and the others bothered by the fact that minnie "harps on" about the by-laws? That she discusses the by-laws when such discussion is not relevant?

Such discussion is ALWAYS relevant because the amendment of the bylaws is rotten to the core, and putrifies everything that the HPNA does and is. They were concieved of in a cabalistic manner, implemented stealthily, and used to stifle and control debate. Thus your whole organization is a sham, having shut out the very community it claims to represent. Claims which have been made in a manner that stinks of divine right or f-ed up vanguardism. The by-laws ought be be the main point of discussion at each and every meeting. All of them, all the time. The board members ought to be canned and publicly shamed, forced to wear a giant red A (for authoritarian) on their chests for the rest of their lives. Sometimes I lament the fact that we abolished the stockade, I guess we will have to settle for public ridicule. Fortunately, the HPNA furnishes an abundance of material for us.

"the wisdom of the HPNA" Words like that make my temples throb. How amazing that such ridiculous gobshites such as the board can apparently talk, and think, about themselves, as if they were some sort of beings of superior intellect. Did all the flowers on mount Meru bloom in the hour of their births?

Where did you learn your ideas about community service, Burma?

Well, I guess you had better defend those bylaws to the last- because the moment that they are repealed, you folks are in deep trouble. You had better restrict voting rights to the smallest possible circle of your friends and relatives, because everyone else seems to think you are disgusting. I think that's a charitable description myself.

One more thing. Lay off the snide comments about minnie. A little reality check for you. A good many of us on the board know Minnie personally. Some of us planted flowers in HP with her. Others (such as myself) have played trivia with her, or been at the same parties as she has. So if you're wondering why your "she's an hysterical obsessed freak, and so are all her friends" smear tactics aren't working here, perhaps its because none of us have ever seen her hysterical. Or freakish. Or even drunk (maybe at my party, but I was too far gone to really judge). OR anything at all but well balanced.

Why don't you all just form a club, buy some fancy uniforms, and march around your backyards, where you can continue mutually satisfying each other, without any of it spilling onto the community.

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Err... you're a real baloney artist.

I never got the opportunity. Clean out your ears!

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You were given the floor to comment on the Historic Zone issue. When you proceeded to attack the board about the bylaws, the president asked you to keep your comments to the issue at hand. You had no relevant comment, as is true of most of your 1200 posts here.

Julio Contreras is a long time member and probably been one longer than anyone else sitting in attendance at Cordero School last Wed. night. Contreras raised his hand during a public meeting and waited his turn to speak and because what he had to say wasn't what the baloney artists wanted to hear is the problem, as has been all along. But he's right... they are functioning as an undemocratic, non profit private club.

I was never given the opportunity to speak; get your facts straight.

super_furry,

Neither you nor Julio had the committment to HPNA to serve as trustee boardmembers instead of the officerships you wanted. Rather, both of you backed out of the election. What more is there to say? It's a testament to the wisdom of the new HPNA election policies requiring a previous board membership term for officers.

As for Julio and Minnie, they were both given the floor to comment on a specific issues and used the opportunity instead to attack the HPNA board.

Julio attacks HPNA for taking a vote to express their opinion on development without asking permission from other groups or people not in attendance? IT'S THE OPINION OF HPNA MEMBERS, AND NO ONE ELSE!! The rest of his note seems equally silly and uncomprehending that HPNA is a nonprofit corp not a governmental arm.

The HPNA board really should post a meeting summary at least on their website or through the Yahoo group. That, btw, is how I get the newsletter and hear about neighborhood stuff. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPNA-JC-Public/

Towards the beginning of the meeting, HPNA member Julio Contreras made a comment and was treated with lack of respect from some members of the HPNA board. In fact, a guest at the back of the room thought the behavior of one or two board members was so unconscionable, (he actually used a stronger word, but I will not post that here), and would be contacting Councilman Steven Fulop. Here is Julio's statement:

For several years I've been attending the Hamilton Park Neighborhood Association, to finally realize with much disappointment that such association is nothing but a private club, as a member from the old guard was most kind to clarify it for me in the last meeting on 1/4/006 .

How could you explain the following?

. There is a member fee.

. No neighbor would be allowed to vote on any issue if they have not paid such a fee.

. Decision making on behalf of the neighborhood therefore is taken by "vote" by a reduced number of HPNA members, example: HPNA opposed on 12/7/005 to the building of Home Depot on a lot several hundred feet away from the Holland tunnel with just 15 votes, without any regard for the opinion of hundred of neighbors not invited or by not consulting the opinion of other community groups based around the area that will be affected by the location of such mega store.

Evidently there is apathy of the board of directors to promote the integration of the community of Hamilton Park as a whole and a premeditated intention to keep their small group in control of the association.

HPNA as it functions now is undemocratic.

This is not a way to build a strong , cohesive community ready to stand up and fight for the social happiness of the neighborhood.

Julio Contreras.

Neighbor of Hamilton Park


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Thanks and no problem. I will do that next month. :)

Congratulations on your election, LoraJ!

Sorry, I missed the meeting.
Can someone post the agenda (if there is one) and advance notice of the meetings on this list- to alert those of us who sometimes neglect to look at their calendars?

Thanks Minnie!

That's the bottom line. What is best for the community. I think community awareness of the new developments/building going on, etc are what really needs to be worked on.

I had started this thread to call out the HPNA leaders for postponing the organizations annual November elections and rushing a new set of bylaws through with no public notice, allowing less then a handful of people to vote on those changes, excluding members from running for officers, and restricting who could vote. It was fixed to keep certain individuals from running for positions that could make any real difference. There was a full slate of nominees including place holders and the HPNA directors were prepared to vote out anyone they didn't want. The two individuals that were planning to run for officers that were later reduced to trustees had backed out, and so elections were uncontested.

To make matters worse, during last nights HPNA meeting in which elections took place, HPNA Officer, Geoff Elkind, remarked that the adopted bylaws was sent out to the membership over a year ago. He even went as far as to ask members if they received them or not. I suppose Elkind thought this comment could somehow redeem the organization for their bogus conduct, and for the most part the comment went over peoples heads for many in the room were not regular attendees. But I sniffed the fib out and when I tried to call him on it, I was quickly silenced.

Since I wasn't able to speak last evening, I will speak here and say that I have attended HPNA meetings faithfully for some four years now, and there were never any adopted bylaws distributed to the membership whatsoever. In fact, last February when I proposed making changes to the bylaws, the project was put on hold and the whole matter died. Not only did the officer fib last evening, but the other officers/trustees just sat silently as it was said. But I will not be silent. And if my voice is what got me thrown of the HPNA board for calling you rats out then so be it! I have no regrets.

When I moved to Hamilton Park, I met an older man and we discussed the park and HP in general. I told him that I wanted to get involved to try and make improvements and that I was going to join the HPNA. This man warned me about getting involved and said... "you'll be pulling your hair out". And you know what..... he was right.

LoraJ, as you are now one of the HPNA's newest trustees, I wish you the best of luck in turning this organization around to be what it was always meant to be. And I truly hope that you will not be silent. As I have seen on this site, you have a voice, and I hope that you will continue to use it, and will make choices based on what is best for our community. Good luck.

I now end this thread.

Any reports/minutes from last night's HPNA meeting?

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I get the HPNA's point that they don't want Home Depot to fill the room with their people to influence a vote. But your point is dead on. They didn't even put it in the agenda.

I also don't think that the people who show up to the meetings fully represent the community as a whole. While I am not for Home Depot, everyone else in my building is. They have other obligations on Wednesdays and can't make it to the meetings all the time. So they aren't being represented.

But how do you get the community to take interest in the community?

I also think the HPNA should get more involved in reaching out to everyone. The Silverman's came a few times to discuss what they were doing. I wonder how many people at those meeting were actually going to be affected by those plans as much as myself and my neighbors are. Unless they surfed these boards, my block knew nothing about those agendas.

If the problem with an association is apathy, is making it more difficult to participate really a solution?

Have the people defending the requirement that a member must serve one year as a trustee before running for officer bothered to note the number of trustees provided in the bilaws (it's not an unlimited honor)? If so, have they also noted the number of officers provided for in the bi-laws? If so, have they drawn any conclusions from the similarity of these two numbers?

As for meeting packing, the HPNA represents the interests of the community. Any person living in that community has an equal interest in the affairs of that community regardless of their participation in the organization. And some dastards have the unmitigated gall to pack the meeting of the community organization with members of the community? How dare they!!

Finally, it is almost universal practice in committees to bifurcate the voting process. Absent an emergency, an item is brought up first as 'new business'. It is brought up at the following meeting as 'old business'. Only 'old business' is voted on. That way, interested people have time to discuss and think about the issue, to make an informed vote.

There was obviously no emergency here. Though some of the changes have merit, both the timing and the procedure reek of corruption. I disagree with SuperFurry's thought that if you agree with the changes, then fine. Even if you agree with the changes, you should be offended at how they were brought about. (And worried--who says next time you'll agree with the change?)

Process matters.

There were folks that attended meetings throughout the year and these same people are NOT considered to be ?members? because they had not forked over dues and they didn?t pay dues because it was never required in order to vote. For twenty years, it was never an issue and now late in the year it is a very big issue to the HPNA who fear losing control to people with different views. So now these folks that attended meetings during the year are excluded from running for office or voting until they pay up, and wait up. And that?s a fact.

With this kind of leadership implementing silly rules in order to remain in control, there is no bright side.

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You're possibly right about that, but I still don't condone the planned hostile takeover by "votebombing" of an organization by nonmembers because it happened to have ridiculously liberal membership and voting policies. Clearly that was the only thing prevented by their 90 day policy change. I question the membership value of someone who would join only in time to vote for their friends. I also heard the previous rules allowed anyone from anywhere in the city to join.

On the bright side, maybe the HPNA official membership rolls will be greatly expanded now that people know it counts for something. Though, from what my friends in other downtown districts say, we already have the best attended meetings by far.

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My point is that if the HPNA had announced their intention to change their bylaws - making it necessary to be a member for 90 days in order to vote - THREE MONTHS ago, the outcome of the upcoming elections would be a little less certain.