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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
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stateaidguy's website http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/

He's partisan and wants to cut our aid, but he's been very informative and fair in my experience of reading his posts and blog. Is the SFRA aid formula fair? No idea.

Posted on: 5/22 18:51
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ProdigalSon wrote:
What percentage on this list is optimal(I think it's 100%)? Additionally is it determining local fair share based on total value of homes in that town/district? Is that why so many beach towns with small populations, and even less school age students have virtually zero tax levy? It would be interesting to see the actual school budgets on this list as well.

Also one thing this list reinforces to me is that their are way to many municipalities in NJ.


If you want to know more about this go to stateaidguy's website. It's linked up thread. There is a complicated formula involving incomes demographics and real estate prices to determine local share.

Posted on: 5/22 16:23
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bodhipooh wrote:
Not to pick arguments, but aren't all those DTJC brownstones also "million dollar homes"? And, look how much of a stink they are raising over having to pay their fair share after 10 - 20 years of underpaying... I am sure in five years time, the city will be expected to shoulder a larger portion of the local BOE budget, and shit *will* hit the fan.


Was there an argument there? The issue of redistributing taxes to make school funding fair is not going away, but I believe sending JC taxes into the stratosphere to raise another $200m, like over 3.5%, won't happen. The economic damage would be catastrophic, dwarfing the reval because it would effect every unabated property, not just the older DT ones.

I find it telling that Monroe always ties the high budget to poor performance, like he'd be OK with it if it got results. That's unlikely. BTW Monroe, your portrayal of Millburn as a tax victim is nonsense. They're not far above JC in the list of Tax Levy as percentage of Local Fair Share for schools. JC:32.75% Milburn: 41.3%. There's plenty of towns underaided, neighboring W Orange is at 128.38%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... 1GBqhMuPDKDMTk/edit#gid=0
Linked from http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/

Does JC BOE need to be pulled apart and put back together? Absolutely. Every district in the state should be held accountable for where it's money goes, by outside auditors, every year. Maybe if we cut off the sweet juice the 599 districts will see the light of consolidating. The smoke and mirrors to make public money vanish pisses me off. Oh, and no district living on the state tit should get to make it's own worker contracts, including Millburn.


What percentage on this list is optimal(I think it's 100%)? Additionally is it determining local fair share based on total value of homes in that town/district? Is that why so many beach towns with small populations, and even less school age students have virtually zero tax levy? It would be interesting to see the actual school budgets on this list as well.

Also one thing this list reinforces to me is that their are way to many municipalities in NJ.

Posted on: 5/22 15:50
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This is one of the more egregious examples of a building being under assessed:

Resized Image

Posted on: 5/22 15:30
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Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Hmmm

So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.


I don't have the actual numbers handy in front of me, but the assessed values are just about one fourth of the estimated value. In other words, the city thinks that property is worth about 650K. That is why the reval is long overdue. The market realities don't match the BS values being assumed. As a result, that property is paying about 1.85% of the assumed value. But, as you have shown, the reality is that they are paying under 1%. That's the type of property that will see a hefty increase in property taxes in 2018, likely getting a bill that is more than double their current levy. I really do wonder what will happen: the more I talk to people, the more I realize they are in denial as to what is coming in 2018. I still hear people saying things like "it's impossible, there is no way the city will allow this".

Posted on: 5/22 14:04
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Dolomiti wrote:
So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.


The actual tax rate on the assessed value is 7.7% (as opposed to an effective rate applied to FMV), thus my calculator turns up $11,242 when you multiply $146k x 0.077.

Rithmatic, man. Do you get it that between revals they raise the rate not the assessments?

Posted on: 5/22 12:43
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brewster wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Hmmm

So, I used the ArcGIS reval, and picked a house with a recent sale date.

2016 purchase: $1.3m
2004 purchase: $700k
1997 purchase: $280k
2016 property taxes: $11k (or 0.85%)
Current assmt: $146k

I presume that after the reval, assuming the house is still worth $1.3m, their taxes will go up to $24,700.

If so, then what is the likely basis for their current property tax? It seems too high to be based off the "current assmt" figure in the database.

Posted on: 5/22 11:30
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Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


You can only win an appeal if you prove your FMV is more than 15% off your assessment/ratio (what they say it's worth). And even if you win, the effective rate only goes down to FMV/ratio, effectively around that 2.2% mark. That's still more than double what the legacy DT properties are paying.

According to Bamb00zle he was paying 0.7% before he sold. Well played sir. Maybe. I know if Yvonne had held on instead of bailing she and Mr Yvonne could have made another 1/2 million at least. That surely would have been more than the hit it would take for the taxes doubling.

Posted on: 5/21 23:37
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Oh, I forgot to mention. If you rent in JC, and your landlord's property taxes go up, do you think that will have any effect on your rent...?

Posted on: 5/21 20:17
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All this makes me even happier that I recently sold and moved to a rental. A tax rate of 2.1% on my former property would triple my taxes, and the impact on the property value would be severe, much more than the capital gains tax I'll pay.

Property taxes need to be adjusted to be fair. However, because of irresponsible actions by successive JC Administrations in avoiding a reval for 28 years it will be very painful. And when the State shifts more school costs to JC it will be worse. Even if that takes a couple of years, people will see it coming so it will hit property values.

The idea of a reverse mortgage to pay more tax to this dysfunctional City, particularly in view of a likely substantial hit to property values in the near future, has no appeal to me. The way I see it I've taken my gains and will wait.

Other factors are important to me as well. Transportation woes on NJT and PATH are only going to get a lot worse when all the over-development is completed. And with all those apartments becoming available and a softening NYC rental market the DT JC property market is going to look a whole lot different when those new assessment notices go out in about 12 months IMHO.

Uh huh fascinating

Hoboken completed its reval some time in 2013. Property values have gained 65% since January 2013. While JC RE prices are hardly guaranteed to increase under any circumstances, it's unlikely that the reval will seriously undermine property values in the long run.

Plus, the reval will be painful for some people -- and beneficial to others, namely the people who were carrying your water while you owned your place.

Thus, it seems highly unlikely that you can take the proceeds of your old apartment, and subtract the cost of rent (which is likely to increase next year), and buy back into the market in early 2019 without paying more. And properties that might be cheap? Those will have, wait for it... bigger tax bills, probably too big for you to want to pay.

We keep hearing people bitch about PATH, and problems keep not getting worse. Not to mention that by 2019 or so, at least some of the signal improvements will be phased in. And let's get real, it's going to be a lot easier to commute to NYC via the PATH train in 2019 than by driving or NJ Transit, and cheaper than taking a ferry (which will only benefit you if you live and work close to the ferry terminals) or a bus from the suburbs.

I.e. even if PATH sucks, everything else is probably gonna be worse.

Renting has some advantages. There are many viable reasons to sell a home and rent. Saving money by dodging a property tax increase that won't hit for about a year? It what may still be a hot market in the interim? Not sure that's one of them.

Posted on: 5/21 19:55
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All this makes me even happier that I recently sold and moved to a rental. A tax rate of 2.1% on my former property would triple my taxes, and the impact on the property value would be severe, much more than the capital gains tax I'll pay.

Property taxes need to be adjusted to be fair. However, because of irresponsible actions by successive JC Administrations in avoiding a reval for 28 years it will be very painful. And when the State shifts more school costs to JC it will be worse. Even if that takes a couple of years, people will see it coming so it will hit property values.

The idea of a reverse mortgage to pay more tax to this dysfunctional City, particularly in view of a likely substantial hit to property values in the near future, has no appeal to me. The way I see it I've taken my gains and will wait.

Other factors are important to me as well. Transportation woes on NJT and PATH are only going to get a lot worse when all the over-development is completed. And with all those apartments becoming available and a softening NYC rental market the DT JC property market is going to look a whole lot different when those new assessment notices go out in about 12 months IMHO.

Posted on: 5/21 13:58
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


2/3 of homeowners will pay their fair share, but 1/3 will not be affected - tax abated properties. So therefore, there will never be a fair share of taxes.

1) I was asking why brewster is asserting that there is some type of limit on the effectiveness or reductions via an appeal.

2) I call BS on the idea that 1/3 of Jersey City housing units are abated.

3) Regardless of anything with with abatements, the reval makes property taxes more fair. And contrary to Monroe's claim, despite the fact that it's going to negatively impact me personally, I still advocate not just for this reval, but for more frequent revaluations.


I don't make up these figure. I quote established figures. There was a time when it was 1/4 but all of the new development has pushed up these numbers. The ratable base of around $6 billion and nearly 3 billion is tax exempted. That figure excludes churches, schools, cemeteries, and public buildings.

Posted on: 5/21 13:16
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Yvonne wrote:
Quote:

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


2/3 of homeowners will pay their fair share, but 1/3 will not be affected - tax abated properties. So therefore, there will never be a fair share of taxes.

1) I was asking why brewster is asserting that there is some type of limit on the effectiveness or reductions via an appeal.

2) I call BS on the idea that 1/3 of Jersey City housing units are abated.

3) Regardless of anything with with abatements, the reval makes property taxes more fair. And contrary to Monroe's claim, despite the fact that it's going to negatively impact me personally, I still advocate not just for this reval, but for more frequent revaluations.

Posted on: 5/21 12:55
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Dolomiti wrote:
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?


2/3 of homeowners will pay their fair share, but 1/3 will not be affected - tax abated properties. So therefore, there will never be a fair share of taxes.

Posted on: 5/20 19:27
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brewster wrote:
If Tommy was sharper about real estate, he could have appealed his taxes, but only down to the effective rate of 2.1%.

What's the mechanism / reason for the limit on the effect of the appeal?

Posted on: 5/20 19:21
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Monroe wrote:
Everyone says people should pay their 'fair share', until they're the ones who need to pay their fair share.

My taxes will go up.

People need to pay their fair share. That includes me.

I'm not thrilled about it, but fair is fair.

Posted on: 5/20 19:06
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greenville wrote:
Yvonne, do you have the rest of the video or is that parts that you need to know? Thank you for this, helps answer most of my questions.


The speech with comments went on for approximately one hour and 20 minutes. I edited for my show on Comast which is a 30 minute time frame. Duda repeated himself and some of the questions raised by the audience were questions he already answer. The only thing I did exclude was his answers on commercial properties. Commercial properties have lawyers to take care of them, I was concerned with the average homeowner.

Posted on: 5/20 10:03
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http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/20 ... esource-districts-in.html

This puts funding in a better perspective, and after the reval we'll see what the numbers are for JC.

But yes, I'd love to see better performance from JC students, since they spend OPM (other peoples money) to the tune of 20% over the state average per student, and graduate at more than 15% worse than the state average.

Posted on: 5/20 7:01
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bodhipooh wrote:
Not to pick arguments, but aren't all those DTJC brownstones also "million dollar homes"? And, look how much of a stink they are raising over having to pay their fair share after 10 - 20 years of underpaying... I am sure in five years time, the city will be expected to shoulder a larger portion of the local BOE budget, and shit *will* hit the fan.


Was there an argument there? The issue of redistributing taxes to make school funding fair is not going away, but I believe sending JC taxes into the stratosphere to raise another $200m, like over 3.5%, won't happen. The economic damage would be catastrophic, dwarfing the reval because it would effect every unabated property, not just the older DT ones.

I find it telling that Monroe always ties the high budget to poor performance, like he'd be OK with it if it got results. That's unlikely. BTW Monroe, your portrayal of Millburn as a tax victim is nonsense. They're not far above JC in the list of Tax Levy as percentage of Local Fair Share for schools. JC:32.75% Milburn: 41.3%. There's plenty of towns underaided, neighboring W Orange is at 128.38%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... 1GBqhMuPDKDMTk/edit#gid=0
Linked from http://njeducationaid.blogspot.com/

Does JC BOE need to be pulled apart and put back together? Absolutely. Every district in the state should be held accountable for where it's money goes, by outside auditors, every year. Maybe if we cut off the sweet juice the 599 districts will see the light of consolidating. The smoke and mirrors to make public money vanish pisses me off. Oh, and no district living on the state tit should get to make it's own worker contracts, including Millburn.

Posted on: 5/19 23:56
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Yvonne, do you have the rest of the video or is that parts that you need to know? Thank you for this, helps answer most of my questions.

Posted on: 5/19 22:19
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Monroe wrote:
Millburn pays the highest real estate taxes in NJ, with the exception of a town in South Jersey with 6 houses. Highest percentage? No. Highest dollar? Yup.


People with million dollar homes being asked to support education in less wealthy communities by paying the same tax percentage as everyone else? OUTRAGEOUS!!



Not to pick arguments, but aren't all those DTJC brownstones also "million dollar homes"? And, look how much of a stink they are raising over having to pay their fair share after 10 - 20 years of underpaying... I am sure in five years time, the city will be expected to shoulder a larger portion of the local BOE budget, and shit *will* hit the fan.

Posted on: 5/19 17:55
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They do, silly. That's why Millburn's taxes are the highest in the state. Of course, Millburn spends about 20% less per student than JC, doesn't have free PreK, and is usually rated one of the best general admission public high schools in the country. On top of the Abbott funding it also pays a lot of the freight supporting Essex County. So if it offends you that it does that and pays less than 2% you're nuts.


What offend me is the whining that your taxes are too high when your rate is low to average. And you want to whine about the actual dollars, rather than the rate, because million dollar houses pay more. Boo hoo hoo. People with million dollar incomes pay more too, and don't get back more in services. That's just the way the system works, but I'm sure you hate paying your income tax too.


Let's hear you cry when the Adjustment Aid goes away . . . and JC has to pay it's fair share rather than the 17% of its school costs it currently does. Taxation without representation-sound familiar? That's what taxpayers across NJ are saying, as the Abbott's spend money like drunken sailors with terrible results. First the reval (for those complaining about the county taxes going up, wait till the reval is done), the Legislature is determined to repair Adjustment Aid-the changes are ahead.

Posted on: 5/19 17:45
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Monroe wrote:
They do, silly. That's why Millburn's taxes are the highest in the state. Of course, Millburn spends about 20% less per student than JC, doesn't have free PreK, and is usually rated one of the best general admission public high schools in the country. On top of the Abbott funding it also pays a lot of the freight supporting Essex County. So if it offends you that it does that and pays less than 2% you're nuts.


What offend me is the whining that your taxes are too high when your rate is low to average. And you want to whine about the actual dollars, rather than the rate, because million dollar houses pay more. Boo hoo hoo. People with million dollar incomes pay more too, and don't get back more in services. That's just the way the system works, but I'm sure you hate paying your income tax too.

Posted on: 5/19 17:40
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Millburn pays the highest real estate taxes in NJ, with the exception of a town in South Jersey with 6 houses. Highest percentage? No. Highest dollar? Yup.


People with million dollar homes being asked to support education in less wealthy communities by paying the same tax percentage as everyone else? OUTRAGEOUS!!



They do, silly. That's why Millburn's taxes are the highest in the state. Of course, Millburn spends about 20% less per student than JC, doesn't have free PreK, and is usually rated one of the best general admission public high schools in the country. On top of the Abbott funding it also pays a lot of the freight supporting Essex County. So if it offends you that it does that and pays less than 2% you're nuts.

Posted on: 5/19 17:29
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Monroe wrote:
Millburn pays the highest real estate taxes in NJ, with the exception of a town in South Jersey with 6 houses. Highest percentage? No. Highest dollar? Yup.


People with million dollar homes being asked to support education in less wealthy communities by paying the same tax percentage as everyone else? OUTRAGEOUS!!


Posted on: 5/19 16:42
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I know in Millburn the taxes are high (even with some nice ratables, like the billion dollar Mall at Short Hills, pays almost 90% of its school costs through taxes.


As I say to Yvonne every time, define what you mean by "high". High relative to other North Jersey towns? It's not, it's average to low, go to the page of all the town rates in the state and compare. Too high for your taste or sense of fairness? Whatever.


Millburn pays the highest real estate taxes in NJ, with the exception of a town in South Jersey with 6 houses. Highest percentage? No. Highest dollar? Yup.

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/201 ... operty_taxes_from_lo.html

Getting back almost nothing for schools (to support Abbott's like JC/Hoboken/Newark) causes a lot of this, as more than half the Millburn budget is for its schools. I think now it's over 22K for the average home.

Posted on: 5/19 15:51
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City/township real estate taxes aren't wealth taxes, they are used to pay for the service and needs of your towns. If one town is lower it may be that they don't provide much, or that the level of waste and corruption is low.

Posted on: 5/19 15:41
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QFT...

So much resolve to fight the inevitable, and yet not a peep about demanding more accountability from our local government.

Quote:

mfadam wrote:
The percentages don't lie brother. No amount of "it's not fair" changes this fact.

If you want to yell about something - how about demanding some accountability on where your tax dollars are going. I guarantee the JC schools could be run much better with far less budget if managed better. Yell at every poltiician who green lit some of the ludicrous pension deals for public servants without any regard to who/how it would be paid...

Posted on: 5/19 15:05
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#82
Home away from home
Home away from home


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2004/11/6 16:13
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Quote:

Monroe wrote:
I know in Millburn the taxes are high (even with some nice ratables, like the billion dollar Mall at Short Hills, pays almost 90% of its school costs through taxes.


As I say to Yvonne every time, define what you mean by "high". High relative to other North Jersey towns? It's not, it's average to low, go to the page of all the town rates in the state and compare. Too high for your taste or sense of fairness? Whatever.

Posted on: 5/19 15:02
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Re: 2017 Reval ~ Property Inspections
#81
Home away from home
Home away from home


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The percentages don't lie brother. No amount of "it's not fair" changes this fact.

If you want to yell about something - how about demanding some accountability on where your tax dollars are going. I guarantee the JC schools could be run much better with far less budget if managed better. Yell at every poltiician who green lit some of the ludicrous pension deals for public servants without any regard to who/how it would be paid...

Posted on: 5/19 14:22
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