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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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No, sadly its not. I wish you guys would listen to what I'm telling you after my years of working on this problem. They do not have summons data easily accessible in any organized fashion, truly. They would have to enter it all manually and currently that's not happening. Platt's office is working on a project to implement a new data reporting system for JCPD, but its a heavy lift and a longer project.
Posted on: 2016/11/29 14:31
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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But that's only one data set. We know they MUST have the summons data, that's all computerized now. Quote: Heights wrote: How convenient is that, a "fits all" solution to deflect any criticism. Of course! It's our fault because we're cheapskates and won't hire enough cops. I wonder if how many cops there would have to be before they could no longer say that? FYI, we have way more cops per capita than a lot of comparably sized or even bigger cities. Http://www.governing.com/topics/publi ... -officers-per-capita.html Interesting document about the history and manpower distribution of the NYPD traffic Div. http://nyccaraccident.net/wp-content/ ... ic-Control-2007-small.pdf
Posted on: 2016/11/28 22:48
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Home away from home
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Are you guys even listening? The city/JCPD has no data on traffic incidents (peds, cars, bikes,e tc.), except raw crash reports. I'm all for data. But its not available. It sucks how poorly our government [doesn't] function, truly. Its going to take a long time to get it. That's one of the things we aim to change via Safe Streets JC.
Now who's coming to our meeting with the Mayor to call on him to make Traffic Safety a true priority? You want change? That's how to get it - show up.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 21:54
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Well, Dolomiti isn't sure so we probably should hold off... Seriously - when has it ever been tried on a sustained basis? How on earth could anyone credibly make the argument "it would never work" when it has never been tried? Not enough manpower? You are probably talking about a dozen or fewer cars for a couple of hours in the morning and a similar amount of time in the evening - moving them around is what would make them effective, not parking them like furniture in one spot for an extended period. if the city's $100 million-plus police budget can't afford that then we need to take a serious look at how we are spending our police dollars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I attend the North District Captain's meeting every month, their mantra is the usual..no money-no manpower" Granted the Heights is holding it's own compared to the rest of the city but unfortunately they are taking cops away from our area and putting them elsewhere in the city. Any new police are stationed in higher crimes areas. During the rush hour when there is a lack of crossing guards the police have to fill in those spots and cannot monitor traffic the way we would like. Our resources are strapped., plus everything is addressed on a priority basis.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 21:51
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Get on your bikes and ride !
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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2007/3/19 18:28 Last Login : 2020/3/10 14:50 From hamilton park
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if only the cops they do place on corners actually did their job ie. the wastes of oxygen at the corner of Columbus and Marin to prevent illegal left hand turns and enforce cars not block the box. I no longer bike home from the waterfront on Columbus b/c those cops are useless and do nothing but drink coffee from Starbucks and talk between themselves.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 21:25
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utterly deplorable
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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No argument there. We have a perfect test case, the East district vs Hoboken. Comparable enough in road conditions, size & demographics to make meaningful comparisons of road safety stats and how officers spend their time. Now if we could only get at the data. The conclusion that we need more enforcement isn't an emotional one, its drawn by anyone from 5 minutes of driving here. It's clear the bad drivers have absolutely no fear of tickets. Nor do the cyclists for that matter. I can't tell you how many times I've driven a road with a cycle lane and a cyclist on the other side.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 20:59
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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sigh I'm not saying "enforcement fails." I'm certainly not saying "get rid of all enforcement." I'm saying: 1) We need basic data first, to set baselines and measure progress. 2) We need data that shows the effectiveness of different approaches. 3) Merely shouting "more cops!" is not a rational proposal, especially in the absence of sufficient data. It's an emotional appeal. By the way, government nudges can be quite effective at fairly low costs, especially when we've already grabbed most of the low-hanging fruit. https://www.theguardian.com/public-lea ... liticians-human-behaviour http://freakonomics.com/podcast/white-house-gets-nudge-business/
Posted on: 2016/11/28 20:49
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Great. Then let's see the data that it works; what kind of resources it requires; and how it compares to infrastructure changes.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 20:44
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Imagine if we tried to extend this idea of "no law enforcement, just engineering" to the rest of the traffic world. Or the world in general! It would be a techno-Libertarian paradise! We don't need cops to prevent muggings, just mobile armored pedestrian bubbles like the popemobile on wheels. No EPA needed, just individual portable air and water filtration systems.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 20:18
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Congrats on your one-man circle jerk. Although local practice may indicate otherwise, enforcing traffic laws is not a novel idea.
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Posted on: 2016/11/28 20:04
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Your first point would seem to be easy to address - if studies show some portion of the traffic in JC is through-traffic, things can be done - lane closures, speed bumps, changing streetlight patterns, changing the direction of streets - to make it more trouble than it's worth to use JC as a shortcut. Your second point needs also to be addressed by those supporting making JC more bike friendly - too many neighborhoods (IMO everywhere but DTJC) does not have the mass transit to make not owning a car a viable option. The other issue I take with BikeJC is that their model seems to ignore things that set JC apart from other cities, including topography. The Heights is isolated from Hoboken and DTJC due to the steep uphill streets, which are impractical for anyone except the young and fit.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 19:53
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Home away from home
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Guys, there's no organized data on this. Which is a big problem. Shocking but true.
How do I know? Because Safe Streets JC has been trying to get it, even had meetings with Police & Brian Platt. All we have are "accident reports" - for vehicle crashes - that are sloppily handwritten that one can get via OPRA. No one aggregates these, no one enters citation/summons data anywhere in JCPD. It sucks majorly! If you all really want to see change - and I hope you do since you are taking time to vent legit frustrations here - PLEASE JOIN US ON DEC 13 from 7:30-9pm at the Gallo Center in Lincoln Park where we are addressing the Mayor about the need for him to commit to addressing the ignored real problem of Traffic Safety and lack of enforcement in JC. Yes, this means you have to leave dtjc. But if you want real change, come help make an impact here with us.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 19:47
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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You're the one proposing the policy. I'd say it is your obligation to demonstrate that it will work. Meanwhile, research is suggesting that yes, bike infrastructure can make a big difference. http://usa.streetsblog.org/2012/10/22 ... ry-risk-up-to-90-percent/ I also have to say that IMO saying "screw the data, let's bust bad drivers" is ultimately not a rational argument, it's an emotional one. Rather than figuring out where the problems really are, We Must Do Something!!! Sorry, but I really don't find that to be very persuasive. It's like prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic, without doing a full workup, because the patient has a cough. Quote: How on earth could anyone credibly make the argument "it would never work" when it has never been tried? You don't think any municipality has ever tried to reduce crashes via stricter or increased traffic enforcement? And yet, you are certain it will work anyway? How curious. Quote: Not enough manpower? You are probably talking about a dozen or fewer cars for a couple of hours in the morning and a similar amount of time in the evening.... Doing what, exactly? Where will they go? Where will they have the biggest effect? How long will this go on? Will this be more or less effective than modifying street infrastructure for traffic calming? Why are you objecting to the very idea of doing research to figure out the best options? Quote: moving them around is what would make them effective, not parking them like furniture in one spot for an extended period. Good thing I didn't suggest that Quote: if the city's $100 million-plus police budget can't afford that then we need to take a serious look at how we are spending our police dollars. I have no idea how well JCPD resources are allocated. That said, I doubt they have a dozen idle traffic officers. Just a guess. Quote: Quote: Again, anecdotal data doesn't really tell us anything. How many fatal bike accidents were there on Grove Street in 2015? Is it more or less than previous years? Is there a trend? How can we tell if something works, without having data as a baseline? Are there more or less bicycle crashes in JC than in other cities of the same size and density? Or compared to Manhattan? Or compared to other parts of Hudson County or NJ? How can you even tell whether enforcement will work, if you don't have any way to measure the effects? Should the city just call you up every 6 weeks and ask you if it's better? The reality is that without data, we are basically blind. We have no way to know where the real problems are, or whether our efforts are having any effect. Quote: Many people on here post the same thing. Frequently. Data is great and more is better, but you don't need a spreadsheet to tell you your house is on fire. Yeah, thing about that? You can't tell how bad things are by riding your bike down the street. Perceptions like those are notoriously unreliable. All it takes is for one car to get a little too close, and you can be convinced that "NJ/JC drivers are insane." Subjective impressions like this are highly susceptible to availability heuristics and similar cognitive biases. It seems pretty obvious to me that we need real data in order to know if our efforts will have a real effect.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 19:09
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Heck, you don't even need police cruisers for enforcement. Put a few officers out there on the busy streets (Jersey Ave, Montgomery and Grand come to mind in my neighborhood) at rush hour and start writing tickets at the intersections. It would be like printing money for JC and maybe the word would spread.
I've lived in a bunch of cities in the world and DTJC is just plain scary these days on a bike. I'd estimate that close to 1/3 of car drivers at rush hour are screwing with their phones while driving. Even the cops don't yield to pedestrians in marked crosswalks. It's so obvious but there's zero enforcement. Brewster, love the Emoticon and I'm also a +1 for T-Bird's comments-
Posted on: 2016/11/28 18:00
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Well, Dolomiti isn't sure so we probably should hold off...  Seriously - when has it ever been tried on a sustained basis? How on earth could anyone credibly make the argument "it would never work" when it has never been tried? Not enough manpower? You are probably talking about a dozen or fewer cars for a couple of hours in the morning and a similar amount of time in the evening - moving them around is what would make them effective, not parking them like furniture in one spot for an extended period. if the city's $100 million-plus police budget can't afford that then we need to take a serious look at how we are spending our police dollars.Quote: In contrast, changing the infrastructure can calm traffic, is not punitive, and can nudge drivers into safer behavior. Let's do this, too. But the way people have run over middle of the road pedestrian crosswalk signs and blow through new stop signs (for years after they've been introduced) doesn't lead me to believe it's a panacea. I'm all for it, but not instead of enforcement - let's do it alongside enforcement. Quote: We've already seen that a painted line on a street doesn't change anything. Quote: Actually, we don't know what it's changed, because we haven't seen any data. Actually, as someone who rides every day - on Grove most days - I can tell you nothing has changed. Many people on here post the same thing. Frequently. Data is great and more is better, but you don't need a spreadsheet to tell you your house is on fire.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 17:44
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Posted on: 2016/11/28 17:22
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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That isn't really relevant. Quote: It comes from the turnpike, motorists leave the turnpike and uses JC streets to connect to the Holland Tunnel.... Prove it. And no, "I see cars coming from 1 & 9" isn't proof. [quote\It also comes from poor planning by City Hall pretending the new buildings will not have cars so those cars circle the blocks looking for parking spots. [/quote] Yet again, adding more parking spots is not going to reduce congestion. In fact, it will increase congestion. More parking spots means more people will regard driving in JC as a viable option, which increases congestion. Induced demand. Look it up.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 17:00
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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While I'm far from an expert, I'm not sure that is the best use of resources. The reality is that the police don't have unlimited resources to enforce the traffic laws, and certainly can't keep up an effort like that forever. Plus, not all corners are equally dangerous. I would not be surprised at all if JFK turned out to have a relatively high number of pedestrian crashes. If that is the case, then it makes more sense to focus on JFK, rather than smash every street equally with the iron fist of the traffic police. Quote: Let's face it - people behind a driver's wheel around here are assholes. I'm not sure that would change with a stricter police enforcement effort. Quote: The culture has to change. Again, not sure that siccing the cops on everyone will do that too. In contrast, changing the infrastructure can calm traffic, is not punitive, and can nudge drivers into safer behavior. Quote: We've already seen that a painted line on a street doesn't change anything. Actually, we don't know what it's changed, because we haven't seen any data. Anecdotes are notoriously unreliable for determining things like traffic safety, especially when bikes and pedestrians are involved.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 16:56
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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I think everyone here thinks they can control vehicle traffic. But where does the traffic comes from? It comes from the turnpike, motorists leave the turnpike and uses JC streets to connect to the Holland Tunnel, I have seen this many times. It comes from 1 & 9. Unless the state spend billions for elevated roads, JC is stuck with the traffic. It also comes from poor planning by City Hall pretending the new buildings will not have cars so those cars circle the blocks looking for parking spots.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 15:30
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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I am a strong proponent of increased/improved cycling infrastructure wherever we can get it - I ride daily. But I grudgingly accept the reality: DTJC isn't ready for a widespread rollout or even a significant reconfiguration of one major artery. We could be in a year though, if...
Spend the next twelve months actively enforcing ALL traffic/cycling/pedestrian laws. Accepting the current state of affairs "because that's the way it is" is, well - unacceptable. Ticket the hell out of speeders, light runners, stop sign ignorers, aggressive lane changers, etc. Ticket jaywalkers. Ticket bike lane double parkers. Ticket people over the age of 12 riding on sidewalks (and don't tell me "I'm taking my life in my hands if I try to ride on Grand - ride on York, a couple of hundred feet away and already equipped with a bike lane. Same for other currently unsafe streets.) Let's face it - people behind a driver's wheel around here are assholes. It would not surprise me in the least to see some suburban commuter driving in the protected bike lane after sitting in traffic for fifteen minutes. The culture has to change. We've already seen that a painted line on a street doesn't change anything. (Hell, more people are riding on the sidewalks than ever before.) Thoughtful consideration needs to be given to how to best achieve a long term success rather than roll out scattered, half-baked things willy nilly.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 15:21
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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It's typical for people to exaggerate the risks of cycling on city streets. In most cities, it's a fairly safe activity, and I don't know of any evidence that JC is singularly dangerous. Plus, pedestrians face similar risks, especially given that many pedestrians in the general metro area are oblivious and/or assertive. I.e. the solution is not to throw up our hands. It's to find out the true nature, extent, source and location of the major issues; and use various tools to attempt to mitigate those problems. Quote: If it's the joy of bicycle riding that you're pursuing wouldn't Lincoln park or Liberty State Park be a better place to safely enjoy yourself? And how are we supposed to get there? Helicopter? Quote: I would think that associations seeking more safety measures to be implemented for rider safety look for more amenities to be created where the road needn't be shared with motor vehicles. Uh... yeah, thing is? There are almost no such paths in JC, let alone Hudson County. Nor are we likely to build a separate bike/pedestrian network around JC. The few that do exist are multi-use paths (i.e. filled with pedestrians, dogs, kids etc) and are not suitable for heavy and/or fast cyclist use. Meanwhile, back in the real world: The evidence shows that the most effective way to increase bike safety is to encourage more cyclists to ride on the streets. This results in cars being more accustomed to and therefore expecting cyclists. Plus, good bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure often has a calming effect on auto traffic. NYC is an example of this, with the number of bicycle crashes generally falling as bike ridership increases.
Posted on: 2016/11/28 14:38
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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This is just an observation, but it would appear that bicycle riders take their lives in their hands while being two wheeled in Jersey City street traffic.
I can understand a desire to ride a bike both for utility and recreation, but given the state of mind of a lot of drivers on our roads today, is it really wise to be amongst them? No amount of enforcement can bring you back to life or health from a serious injury at the hands of distracted drivers we're seeing on the roads today . If it's the joy of bicycle riding that you're pursuing wouldn't Lincoln park or Liberty State Park be a better place to safely enjoy yourself? Given what appears to be the norm for development in Jersey City a lot more cars than bicycles will be in the offing in the near future. I would think that associations seeking more safety measures to be implemented for rider safety look for more amenities to be created where the road needn't be shared with motor vehicles. Drivers simply can't be trusted with bike riders' safety regardless of how many laws are engaged and created in the effort.
Posted on: 2016/11/26 1:58
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I think we should hinder the motorists. They have free reign on Grand Street. We gave them quite a chance and they blew it. Road diets are shown to work without creating insane traffic jams (after a period of adjustment, at least). If there is reduced throughput people making unnecessary trips or using Grand as a shortcut to the tunnel will choose a different way to go. I lived on Grand Street for six years and it was a constant nightmare. I'm sure the current owner of my condo would appreciate the increased value of their property when their street is no longer a highway.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 21:48
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Not to give you a hard time, but in the 2 years or so since the Grove St. bike lane experiment, things seem to be worse than ever as far as enforcement. What has been done? IMO, Grove St. is more dangerous with bike lanes - some motorists seem to feel that cyclists have their lanes and they have no right to be in the road even to go around double parked cars. Cops even double park on Grove when there's no apparent emergency. I'm more paranoid on my bike than ever. Grand St., JFK and probably other streets are like playing Russian roulette for cyclists and pedestrians.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 21:06
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It'd also be helpful to have some real data on the number and location of bike / pedestrian crashes.
Seems pretty straightforward -- figure out where the problems actually are, and set a benchmark to measure effectiveness, before throwing something down on the streets and hoping it works.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 20:50
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Home away from home
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You guys are missing the bigger picture. This isn't Enforcement OR Engineering changes (ie., protected bike lane). Both are needed concurrently. Protected Bike Lanes with effective enforcement are highly effective. Well planned engineering changes make the job of enforcement (provided the city commits to that) easier. You want them to pursue both avenues at once.
Safe Streets JC is advocating for the Mayor to create a true Traffic unit that's more advanced than the prior iterations (the motorcycle squad). Ideally, this unit would: 1. Enforce traffic, give citations 2. Investigate crashes and assist at crash scenes 3. Become on the ground experts to partner with traffic engineers, giving recommendations on problem areas and first hand observations to help guide engineers. 4. Most importantly - be data focused and data driven. This is not currently happening effectively in the JCPD and its crucial to improving traffic safety in JC. Please join us to learn more and to help promote this to the Mayor.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 20:28
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Here I have to disagree. When the house is on fire you don't obsess about lead paint in the walls. Focusing on enforcement benefits ALL the parties using JC streets, not just cyclists. We need a Traffic Division at Public Safety the way NYC has. This would pay for itself and benefit EVERYONE on the streets rather than the protected bikeway which would cost a lot, and benefit the cyclists while hindering the motorists.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 17:31
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yes, I realize that as a city we have hard time just trying to tie our shoes, but one has to try and try everything.
a city has to do everything, do a good job protecting residents from crime, pollution, and flooding, educate most of our children, protecting our homes from crime and fire, clean our streets and provide sanitation, recreation and other cultural experiences, and of course economic growth and manage development/redevelopment. and all the while while providing a safe environment for car drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians it can't do just one, it must do all. and Bike JC believes that a protected bike lane is another piece in the big puzzle to make Jersey City a good place to live, work, visit and invest. Quote:
Posted on: 2016/11/21 4:12
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Re: Complete Streets - Bike JC's Grand Street Vision
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Dan, without enforcement no amount of engineering like stop signs and separate lanes will keep cyclists and pedestrians safe. Most accidents involving bikes happen with turning vehicles in the intersection rather than midblock, correct? If they speed and won't stop at signals and signs because they know they will never be ticketed, no one is safe, no matter whether they're in a car, on a bike or walking.
My family and I cycle too, though perhaps not as much as yours, but I see engineering as a solution that comes AFTER you enforce the law and see what needs tweaking. It's like getting a guard dog without having tried actually locking your door.
Posted on: 2016/11/21 3:49
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Of course the the bike lanes need to be connected into a network and double parking needs to be addressed. Bike JC has raised and advocated on these issues continuously and relentlessly. And I also have full confidence that our city planners are capable of and educated to design and implement a bike lane system and a protected bike lane. Its done all over the the country and the world.
Short of Bike JC implementing it their selves what is there left to do? Same goes for Brewster comments, and I believe the idea is to change the physical environment to reduce the need for enforcement. Note that if one looks at the proposed design (over on Facebook) there are three traffic lanes not two. Quote:
Posted on: 2016/11/21 2:48
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