Frank_M wrote:
Quote:

jerseymom wrote:

There is a substantial scientific unknown when it comes to the safety of vaping. You're being naive to believe any claims that inhaling any unregulated substance into your lungs from an unregulated vapor driven device is safe or safer than cigarettes. They don't call it bronchiolitis obliterans for nothing.

Even if the "juice" claims to be diacetyl-free, it is often not.

You raise some good points that are worth discussing.

The first is regulation. Vaping has evolved much faster than regulations, which are almost non-existent. On one hand, the absence of control has helped to promote a great deal of ingenuity in solving the problem of cigarettes and smoking. On the other, it also permits unscrupulous or half-hearted efforts among a minority of sellers and manufacturers. Informed consumers know what to avoid, but more needs to be done to protect everyone. Ultimately, we both probably agree that the FDA needs to be involved, and the good news is that regulation is not far off.

Regardless, there are many responsible, capable device and e-liquid makers who already set high standards for themselves and their customers. They avoid introducing diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and other undesirables along with their flavoring ingredients, and publish the results of third-party testing online. They give honest warnings about their products and use tamper and child-resistant packaging. They also put deliberate effort into giving their customers a high quality, satisfying experience. They're effectively doing many of the things that should form the basis of responsible legislation.

The second is harm reduction, or the incorrectly perceived lack thereof. I'm curious why you suggest that e-cigarettes are no less harmful than tobacco cigarettes, because you may be surprised to learn that in 2015, an agency within the UK's Department of Health estimated that electronic cigarettes are at least 95% safer than smoking, and chances are that's a conservative number on their behalf. After all, there is an enormous difference between the products of tobacco combustion at 2,000 degrees in the glowing cherry of a cigarette, and vaporization of non-toxic (given the dose) propylene glycol, glycerin, and nicotine at 400-500 degrees. Have you ever even been in the same room with a lit cigarette, much less smoked one? Granted that's not a scientific test, but come on now. Smoke is nasty stuff to inhale.

The question remains how harmful some flavoring compounds may be, and there's a great deal of study required, but current evidence suggests that the potential for harm pales in comparison to the smorgasbord of chemicals found in cigarette smoke. You can choose not to believe the experts, but most seem to concur that vaping is much less dangerous than smoking. Long term effects need to be studied after 20, 30, 50 years of use, but we have many reasons to predict that e-cigarettes will continue to prove much less harmful.

Getting back to diacetyl, we know that it, along with acetyl propionyl, carries an inhalation risk and should therefore be avoided in e-liquids. Still, there's something interesting to note: Even though conventional cigarettes produce tens to hundreds of times more diacetyl and acetyl propionyl than even notorious "buttery" e-liquids, tobacco smokers don't suffer from "popcorn lung." We don't know if that says anything about the potential impact of e-cigarettes and their much lower levels of DA and AP production, but that may be a promising sign.

Finally, you're right that there's a great deal we don't know... and that leaves us with an important choice: Should we use? the information we have already at our disposal and refine our understanding as we proceed, or enact knee-jerk legislation that severely limits access to e-cigarettes until we're absolutely sure about everything?

In making that decision with respect to public health, the question and answer seems obvious. Should we allow people a satisfying alternative to cigarettes that is known to be much less dangerous, or pass laws like Mr. Vitale's bill that would effectively help to keep them smoking? Cigarettes are on their way out, why fight it?

jerseymom wrote:

There is a substantial scientific unknown when it comes to the safety of vaping. You're being naive to believe any claims that inhaling any unregulated substance into your lungs from an unregulated vapor driven device is safe or safer than cigarettes. They don't call it bronchiolitis obliterans for nothing.

Even if the "juice" claims to be diacetyl-free, it is often not.

bodhipooh wrote:
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I recently read some study that concluded (pretty solidly) that preteens and teens partaking in e-cigs eventually take up smoking in larger concentrations that among those who don't use e-cigs, as also highlighted in the bill. I'm surprised the Legislature would actually blur the distinction in flavor between real and electronic cigarettes given that.

dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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I don't really see it being a feeder system for regular cigarettes unless you believe that people are smoking vaporizers to work their way up to cigarettes.

Not my case. That's the argument made in the bill itself.

1. The Legislature finds and declares that:
a. There has been a proliferation of flavored cigarettes and flavored electronic smoking devices in recent years, and many of these products have fruit, chocolate, or other flavors that are particularly attractive to children;
b. According to public health experts, the existence of these products increases the incidence of tobacco use among children;

Quote:

Pebble wrote:

It seems pretty straight forward that flavored e-cigs are unhealthy. If you are making the case that the flavored e-cigs are preventing people from getting hooked on regular cigarettes then that is a poor direction.

Not the case I was making. I quit smoking using non-tobacco flavored liquids - spearmint and peppermint were my choice. Why force me to choose tobacco flavors? If vaping is a true hazard - ban it. Or regulate the flavors and chemicals known to cause issues. But the tobacco flavors written into this bill seem pretty arbitrary.

Pebble wrote:
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I don't really see it being a feeder system for regular cigarettes unless you believe that people are smoking vaporizers to work their way up to cigarettes.

Pebble wrote:

It seems pretty straight forward that flavored e-cigs are unhealthy. If you are making the case that the flavored e-cigs are preventing people from getting hooked on regular cigarettes then that is a poor direction.

dtjcview wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
I believe the bill is in response to this.

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The study revealed that 75-percent of the 51 flavored liquids tested contain the very dangerous chemical diacetyl and two other harmful compounds. ... Diacetyl is known to cause bronchitis obliterans, a degenerative and irreversible respiratory condition also known as that often requires a lung transplant. Bronchitis obliterans is also known as popcorn lung.

The bill is only foolish if you completely ignore research or are unaware of the research...

Well aware of the "research". The NJ bill is absurd - it simply makes it a feeder program for regular cigarettes. Plus do we have tobacco flavored nicorettes for those who want to quit?

Have the FDA ban or regulate it - but half-baked bills like this are nonsense.

prohibit the sale or distribution of electronic smoking devices that use ?characterizing flavors? other than tobacco, clove, and menthol

Pebble wrote:
I believe the bill is in response to this.

Quote:

The study revealed that 75-percent of the 51 flavored liquids tested contain the very dangerous chemical diacetyl and two other harmful compounds. ... Diacetyl is known to cause bronchitis obliterans, a degenerative and irreversible respiratory condition also known as that often requires a lung transplant. Bronchitis obliterans is also known as popcorn lung.

The bill is only foolish if you completely ignore research or are unaware of the research...

Pebble wrote:
I believe the bill is in response to this.

Quote:

The study revealed that 75-percent of the 51 flavored liquids tested contain the very dangerous chemical diacetyl and two other harmful compounds. ... Diacetyl is known to cause bronchitis obliterans, a degenerative and irreversible respiratory condition also known as that often requires a lung transplant. Bronchitis obliterans is also known as popcorn lung.

The bill is only foolish if you completely ignore research or are unaware of the research...

The study revealed that 75-percent of the 51 flavored liquids tested contain the very dangerous chemical diacetyl and two other harmful compounds. ... Diacetyl is known to cause bronchitis obliterans, a degenerative and irreversible respiratory condition also known as that often requires a lung transplant. Bronchitis obliterans is also known as popcorn lung.

Frank_M wrote:
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Senator Joseph F. Vitale has sponsored a bill that would prohibit the sale or distribution of electronic smoking devices that use ?characterizing flavors? other than tobacco, clove, and menthol
...
Read it here:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2016/Bills/S0500/298_I1.HTM