heights wrote:
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HeightsBrat wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
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HeightsBrat wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Wasn't it last year that Torres, Fulop, and Baraka had a photo/video op where they were joining together to fight crime? Day after Christmas we have one shot and killed in Newark, two shot and killed in Paterson, and a 1 year old shot in Jersey City.

Great job, mayors!

http://www.northjersey.com/news/pater ... ayors-say-video-1.1058597

(edited to add that these three towns suck up a total of close to $1.8 BILLION dollars, each and ever year, in Abbott money alone!

No one knows what is in another person's mind & at best police are a deterrent to those who may be thinking of commiting a crime. A policeman for every person will not stop anything, slow it down but not stop a person who is hellbent on commiting some heinous act.

Okay so we get it, you hate Fulop, move on. Instead of being a broken record & droning on & on about what is wrong why don't you come up with a solution or are you like so many of the previous administration's faithful, mindless.

There are many in the community, particularly the south, trying their best to find a way to help turn their community around but it is obvious you are not one of them. Drone on Monroe & become as irrelavent as others on this board.

I don't 'hate' Fulop, I disagree (mostly) with his politics. But when three mayors join together to fight crime, and fail miserably, isn't it ok to make a comment about that failure of their goals? When they call a press conference to hype their goals, and fall flat on their faces, is it not ok to opine??

It is fine to have an opinion but unfortunately this is a subject for which no solution is easy. It is mostly a bandaid at best for those who want some kind of answer. That people are that willing to put everything in the hands of government & take every statement as gospel sets up a dangerous precedence on two fronts, one being the loss of personal freedom & the other to the moral breakdown of society in which you now divide society into a lawabiding & non lawabiding segments. The problem, imo, is societal. All too often witnesses & victims themselves are uncooperative because of the "snitches get stitches" mentality. This empowers the criminal element & makes those charged with our safety all but powerless. Crime will only falter when we take responsibility (& I am not talking about vigilantism) for our own behaviour & demand the same of others.

Mayor Fulop's response to this crime and every other crime based incident was the word "daunting" I think that says it all. You're in good company there Brat. Maybe you can take the reigns if Fulop seeks that higher office that he's been eyeing.

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Wealth-wise - I'm probably top 2%. But I find your views entirely repugnant. I hang out with a lot of folks in both JC and Newark that struggle to make ends meet. PM me. I'll introduce you to some real people.

sometimes the truth hurts but facts are facts; i wish it weren't so and your being in the top 1% or the bottom 1% does not change the facts on the ground no matter how much you try to sugarcoat the facts

I just offered to introduce you to some real people, in real poverty. No sugar.

Guess you can't handle the real truth.

hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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Wealth-wise - I'm probably top 2%. But I find your views entirely repugnant. I hang out with a lot of folks in both JC and Newark that struggle to make ends meet. PM me. I'll introduce you to some real people.

sometimes the truth hurts but facts are facts; i wish it weren't so and your being in the top 1% or the bottom 1% does not change the facts on the ground no matter how much you try to sugarcoat the facts

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

true, there is segregation but i believe the root cause of that has to do with finances and economics

Google it for yourself: "history of NJ racial segregation".

For example: http://www.bobbraunsledger.com/new-jerseys-apartheid-schools/

I don't think apartheid is too strong a word.

i think there should be better integration, but i also don't believe that sending poorly behaved schools to the suburbs is the answer since it would bring down conditions in those schools if the bad apples are sent there. i have a teacher friend in another state who never had any significant problems in 20 years of teaching until they started busing in african american students from the local big city; these students talk back, fight, don't do homework, etc

Wealth-wise - I'm probably top 2%. But I find your views entirely repugnant. I hang out with a lot of folks in both JC and Newark that struggle to make ends meet. PM me. I'll introduce you to some real people.

hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

true, there is segregation but i believe the root cause of that has to do with finances and economics

Google it for yourself: "history of NJ racial segregation".

For example: http://www.bobbraunsledger.com/new-jerseys-apartheid-schools/

I don't think apartheid is too strong a word.

i think there should be better integration, but i also don't believe that sending poorly behaved schools to the suburbs is the answer since it would bring down conditions in those schools if the bad apples are sent there. i have a teacher friend in another state who never had any significant problems in 20 years of teaching until they started busing in african american students from the local big city; these students talk back, fight, don't do homework, etc

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

true, there is segregation but i believe the root cause of that has to do with finances and economics

Google it for yourself: "history of NJ racial segregation".

For example: http://www.bobbraunsledger.com/new-jerseys-apartheid-schools/

I don't think apartheid is too strong a word.

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

hero69 wrote:
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dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

true, there is segregation but i believe the root cause of that has to do with finances and economics

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015 ... _of_every_person.html#Map

Even in a diverse city like JC, segregation is pretty evident.

hero69 wrote:
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this could more easily have been explained away as an effect of segregation in the 50's and 60's, but it is now 2016 and that explanation is getting long in te tooth

hero69 wrote:
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Pebble wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
sure, there are special situations that can create a sense of hopelessness or whatever, but there is no way you are going to convince me that those kids playing basketball every single day and spending $200 for a pair of sneakers are hopeless; they have a PRIORITIES which does not include education. also, there are plenty of situations where fathers (whether criminal or not) are not " not living" in section 8

How about this... You prove that those kids with $200 shoes are on welfare, first. You prove that the kids playing basketball every day don't care about education. You prove that they are living in Section 8 homes.

Now, until you do all of that, all that I am reading is an overgeneralized idea about what you believe kids playing basketball on public courts are doing.

Heck, we have welfare laws on the books for over 20 years and you had no idea. I find it very hard to believe that you know the grades of the kids playing basketball...

i did NOT say that those kids with the $200 sneakers are on welfare; i don't know but i hope they are not on welfare i said those kids (or many of them) do not prioritize their education. the issue of fathers living in section 8 homes (under the radar) is a separate issue.

i have first hand knowledge of what i am talking about and

Pebble wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
sure, there are special situations that can create a sense of hopelessness or whatever, but there is no way you are going to convince me that those kids playing basketball every single day and spending $200 for a pair of sneakers are hopeless; they have a PRIORITIES which does not include education. also, there are plenty of situations where fathers (whether criminal or not) are not " not living" in section 8

How about this... You prove that those kids with $200 shoes are on welfare, first. You prove that the kids playing basketball every day don't care about education. You prove that they are living in Section 8 homes.

Now, until you do all of that, all that I am reading is an overgeneralized idea about what you believe kids playing basketball on public courts are doing.

Heck, we have welfare laws on the books for over 20 years and you had no idea. I find it very hard to believe that you know the grades of the kids playing basketball...

hero69 wrote: sure, there are special situations that can create a sense of hopelessness or whatever, but there is no way you are going to convince me that those kids playing basketball every single day and spending $200 for a pair of sneakers are hopeless; they have a PRIORITIES which does not include education. also, there are plenty of situations where fathers (whether criminal or not) are not " not living" in section 8

Pebble wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
interesting points, but i'm not sure i would want too many sectoin 8 people living in my neighborhood unless they were not problem-makers. from everyone i talk too, section 8 tenants create too many headaches and many fathers are prone to violence. i would want that around me. now, if these are peaceful section 8 tenants i would not care. i like the idea of cash awards for educational achievement but there should be a timeline to GET off welfare and get productive. i only see welfare mothers setting a bad example for their children!

1. You can?t live in a Section 8 house if you commit a crime. Once arrested, you lose the privilege.
2. Your argument about welfare for work already exists and has existed in NJ policy for about 20 years. It?s called Workfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workfare
3. The only proven methodology is the blend of income brackets that disperses those more prone to cause problems among those that don?t.

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Monroe wrote:
Not a single point in the list refers to personal responsibility improvement and making better choices in your own life as routes to improvement. Taxing the earners even more won't help if people won't take on a modicum of responsibility.

Great concept. Now, put it in practice. How do you physically force someone to take on responsibility? How do you know people aren?t *trying* and possibly failing? How do you know that the people are trying but are just simply too ignorant to know that the decisions they are making are poor?

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Monroe wrote:
I'm less happy when solutions for other people are paid out of my pocket when much can be accomplished for free. Like not having children you can't afford, for one.

Someone on welfare having additional children doesn?t equal more money in their pocket. This has been the case for 20 years.

However, you seem to miss the fact that by breeding out criminals, you are paying more money down the line.

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hero69 wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Wasn't it last year that Torres, Fulop, and Baraka had a photo/video op where they were joining together to fight crime? Day after Christmas we have one shot and killed in Newark, two shot and killed in Paterson, and a 1 year old shot in Jersey City.

Great job, mayors!

FYI, crime was down 8% in Jersey City for 2015. It's also down in Paterson, despite a recent surge.

Crime fell in Newark in almost every category, too. The increases were were 8 more homicides (104, compared with 96 last year) and rapes doubled (87 compared with 44). The latter could have as much to do with reporting as with any changes in incidents; NJ also changed its definitions of rape in 2013, which may still be influencing the numbers.

I don't see any particular reason to credit politicians with these outcome. At the same time, it doesn't seem like there is much to blame on them either.

. nope, i'm not buying the "hope" line. sure, there are some people in hopeless situations...but i can take you to places in other countries where kids realize that an education is a way of escaping poverty.....and the situation of these kids is a lot more hopeless than that of any kid growing up in jersey city.

people want to blame the system, the politicians and the teachers when the blame for failure lies with the students and their parent/s. school is not meant to be disneyland.

You don?t seem to be interested in actually looking at situations as they exist and are more interested in generalizing outliers as being the norm.

hero69 wrote:
interesting points, but i'm not sure i would want too many sectoin 8 people living in my neighborhood unless they were not problem-makers. from everyone i talk too, section 8 tenants create too many headaches and many fathers are prone to violence. i would want that around me. now, if these are peaceful section 8 tenants i would not care. i like the idea of cash awards for educational achievement but there should be a timeline to GET off welfare and get productive. i only see welfare mothers setting a bad example for their children!

Monroe wrote:
Not a single point in the list refers to personal responsibility improvement and making better choices in your own life as routes to improvement. Taxing the earners even more won't help if people won't take on a modicum of responsibility.

Monroe wrote:
I'm less happy when solutions for other people are paid out of my pocket when much can be accomplished for free. Like not having children you can't afford, for one.

hero69 wrote:
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Dolomiti wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
Wasn't it last year that Torres, Fulop, and Baraka had a photo/video op where they were joining together to fight crime? Day after Christmas we have one shot and killed in Newark, two shot and killed in Paterson, and a 1 year old shot in Jersey City.

Great job, mayors!

FYI, crime was down 8% in Jersey City for 2015. It's also down in Paterson, despite a recent surge.

Crime fell in Newark in almost every category, too. The increases were were 8 more homicides (104, compared with 96 last year) and rapes doubled (87 compared with 44). The latter could have as much to do with reporting as with any changes in incidents; NJ also changed its definitions of rape in 2013, which may still be influencing the numbers.

I don't see any particular reason to credit politicians with these outcome. At the same time, it doesn't seem like there is much to blame on them either.

. nope, i'm not buying the "hope" line. sure, there are some people in hopeless situations...but i can take you to places in other countries where kids realize that an education is a way of escaping poverty.....and the situation of these kids is a lot more hopeless than that of any kid growing up in jersey city.

people want to blame the system, the politicians and the teachers when the blame for failure lies with the students and their parent/s. school is not meant to be disneyland.

Dolomiti wrote:
Quote:

Monroe wrote:
Wasn't it last year that Torres, Fulop, and Baraka had a photo/video op where they were joining together to fight crime? Day after Christmas we have one shot and killed in Newark, two shot and killed in Paterson, and a 1 year old shot in Jersey City.

Great job, mayors!

FYI, crime was down 8% in Jersey City for 2015. It's also down in Paterson, despite a recent surge.

Crime fell in Newark in almost every category, too. The increases were were 8 more homicides (104, compared with 96 last year) and rapes doubled (87 compared with 44). The latter could have as much to do with reporting as with any changes in incidents; NJ also changed its definitions of rape in 2013, which may still be influencing the numbers.

I don't see any particular reason to credit politicians with these outcome. At the same time, it doesn't seem like there is much to blame on them either.

hero69 wrote:
dtjcview, i think you are mistaken. i don't have a problem paying money for education, i have a problem wasting money. at the end of the day, no amount of money is gonna make a kid learn anything if the kids and their parents don't care..and let's face it, many kids come from backgrounds is not a priority....but getting the latest pair of air jordans is a priority.

people got upset with opraj winfrey when she stated about the obvious about kids wanting iphones or sneakers when started her leadership academy in south africa.

no amount of money is gonna make a kid learn anything if the kids and their parents don't care are without hope.

Monroe wrote:
Wasn't it last year that Torres, Fulop, and Baraka had a photo/video op where they were joining together to fight crime? Day after Christmas we have one shot and killed in Newark, two shot and killed in Paterson, and a 1 year old shot in Jersey City.

Great job, mayors!

hero69 wrote:
dtjcview, i think you are mistaken. i don't have a problem paying money for education, i have a problem wasting money. at the end of the day, no amount of money is gonna make a kid learn anything if the kids and their parents don't care..and let's face it, many kids come from backgrounds is not a priority....but getting the latest pair of air jordans is a priority.

people got upset with opraj winfrey when she stated about the obvious about kids wanting iphones or sneakers when started her leadership academy in south africa.

hero69 wrote:
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Monroe wrote:
The earners in NJ pay more than their fair share to support Jersey City-which is why JC taxpayers pay on 16% of the cost of educating their own kids while suburban taxpayers put in a HALF BILLION DOLLARS a year to support JC schools, who spend 25% more per student than the state average. And much of that money is wasted, if JC's graduation rate of 67% (20 percentage points below the state average) is an indicator.

JC could spend billions on education but it would be a waste of money as long as so many students have worthless parents! maybe one should have to apply for a permit to have kids.

Monroe wrote:
The earners in NJ pay more than their fair share to support Jersey City-which is why JC taxpayers pay on 16% of the cost of educating their own kids while suburban taxpayers put in a HALF BILLION DOLLARS a year to support JC schools, who spend 25% more per student than the state average. And much of that money is wasted, if JC's graduation rate of 67% (20 percentage points below the state average) is an indicator.

Monroe wrote:
I'm less happy when solutions for other people are paid out of my pocket when much can be accomplished for free. Like not having children you can't afford, for one.

Monroe wrote:
Not a single point in the list refers to personal responsibility improvement and making better choices in your own life as routes to improvement. Taxing the earners even more won't help if people won't take on a modicum of responsibility.

dtjcview wrote:
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hero69 wrote:
i think high crime rates in urban areas is an intractable problem until cities/politicians to focus on changing the mentality in many urban african-american communities which seem to have more than their fair share. imo, this includes 1) eliminating welfare and replacing it with some type of work for pay program and educational requirement, 2) increasing the focus on standardized test (no one should be graduating high school and reading at a 6th or 8th grade level) and longer school hours (perhaps saturdays too), 3) just locking away the gangsters and such, and 4) overhauling the section 8 program, 5) much stronger police/national guard and CCTV surveillance.

just food for thought! i'm not so sure that these democratic social programs haven't been that successful in raising people out of poverty! i can't tell you how disturbing when you see kids who can't speak half way decent english or do simple math, but can tell how much stephen curry makes!

but, of course, the republicans don't really care, they just want to make the 1% richer!

The most powerful lobbies have the least interest in resolving the core issues.

We should, for example:
1. Decriminalize all victim-less crimes.
2. Reduce jail population for non-violent offenders by every measure possible. Shorter sentences, tracking devices, improved mental health services, re-entry/clean slate programs.
3. Increase sentences/minimum terms for violent offenders and gang members. Ban parolees from returning to the area they committed their crime - provide more section 8/affordable housing in the likes of Millburn.
4. Attack gangs sources of finance. Legalize and control the sale and distribution of all drugs.
5. Use incentives to supplement welfare: small business grants, free colleges places, cash awards for education achievement.

Nobody will make money out of that - and nobody will pay for it through tax hikes - which is why none of it will happen.