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Re: Fulop wants to change the election from May to November
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I agree with the change in media coverage over the past generation - it's an entirely different landscape than it used to be. The number of outlets, the amount of coverage, and the considerably more aggressive nature of the coverage make it an altogether different enterprise to run for office today than even in the 80s. And the ridiculous amount of money it takes to run (and stay in) office also has changed the quality of person willing to run - and not for the better, in my estimation. That said, there are still accomplished people with character. Too bad most of them look at the reality of the job and say no thanks.
Posted on: 2015/11/22 3:18
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Re: Fulop wants to change the election from May to November
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Below is the JJ link that Yvonne posted it is really disgusting how Matsioudis and his new ?friends? are trying to stop this. (her post didn?t have the title or paragraph breaks..hard to read)
Fulop plan to move Jersey City elections may hit roadblock By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal on November 20, 2015 at 3:49 PM, updated November 20, 2015 at 4:24 PM JERSEY CITY ? Mayor Steve Fulop's push to move city elections to November isn't formalized yet, but there's an effort afoot to keep it from becoming a reality. A committee of five community activists has started a petition drive aimed at using a state law to force the council to repeal the ordinance, which was expected to be adopted on Tuesday, or to call a special election asking voters if the measure should be adopted. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... r.html#incart_river_index JJ comment: Quote: ?It is led by Bill Matsikoudis, a longtime Fulop rival who lost his job as corporation counsel when Fulop unseated Jerramiah Healy in 2013.?
Posted on: 2015/11/21 20:42
Edited by neverleft on 2015/11/21 20:59:43
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Such are the times we live in. I do wonder however if the "pure candidate" of another age was simply an artifact of a less sophisticated press structure. JFK was covered in "warts" but the "gentlemen of the press" were complicit in his myth, even before his death. My biggest complaint of the modern state of things is it rewards blank slates and punishes track records.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 20:12
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Maybe it is a supply problem rather than demand (number of people voting.) You can come up with all sorts of ways to make voting easier, more convenient, mandatory, etc., but it's rare that there is someone who truly gets people excited to vote for them. Regardless of what you think of him now, Obama in 2008 fits that category - who else? If the candidates are of marginal quality, who honestly wants to vote? The lesser of two evils election seems to be the rule.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 19:19
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shakatah: you said "if Bill Clinton only got 19% of the popular or electoral vote in that election , would he have been elected president?"
The answer to the "popular" question is still YES. Had you actually read my post, I noted the EC takes 50%+1, but the popular vote is a different animal. You have chosen to ignore the entirety of what I said in order to repeat your belief (I won't grace it with the description of "argument") once again. We have had 18 Presidents who won with less than 50% of the popular vote, the lowest being JQ Adams with 30%. Lincoln had 39.65%. Your premise that being elected by less than 50% is illegitimate is absurd. And primaries have nothing to do with it. They do not legitimize or delegitimize a candidate. The majority of states didn't even have presidential primaries until after 1968.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 17:53
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Re: Fulop wants to change the election from May to November
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Brewster, a majority of electoral votes are required. Not 19% or 43% of the popular vote or electoral vote, but a majority (270 of 358 or 50%+1) of the electoral vote. How a candidate gets there is irrelevant and so are your theories. The point is that a majority (50%+1) is REQUIRED for POTUS, not 1 vote less than that. Didnt you argue earlier that the standard for the POTUS should be good enough for the mayor? Let me guess, you will now argue against what you said earlier. A bit of advice: when you throw facts around make sure they support your argument before introducing them. Otherwise it could get embarrassing.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 12:37
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I'm sorry but you're still wrong on the facts. While the Electoral College DOES require a majority, the peculiarities of that system could easily allow someone to win 51% of the EC with 19% of the vote. Even with only 2 candidates you could theoretically win with 26% of the popular vote by winning 51% of the EC by slim margins and losing the rest by 100%. Add in strong 3rd parties driving down winning margins in the states (there is no requirement for a majority to win electoral votes) and the 19% is doable.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 4:35
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The answer is "NO" for all the reasons I outlined in my previous post. I won't waste anymore time.
Posted on: 2015/11/21 0:22
Edited by shakatah on 2015/11/21 0:41:01
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Re: Fulop wants to change the election from May to November
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JERSEY CITY ? Mayor Steve Fulop's push to move city elections to Novemberisn't formalized yet, but there's an effort afoot to keep it from becoming a reality. A committee of five community activists has started a petition drive aimed at using a state law to force the council to repeal the ordinance, which was expected to be adopted on Tuesday, or to call a special election asking voters if the measure should be adopted. "We are talking about fundamental changing our election process," said Barbara Camacho, 37, one of the committee members. "This is an issue that deserves as much consideration as possible." If successful, the committee's effort could extend the debate over moving Jersey City's elections, which began in earnest in January when Fulop proposed the change, into March at least. A special election, if called, would be held on March 10 at the earliest. The petition drive represents a new and significant roadblock on Fulop's path to Drumthwacket. If the city races remain in May, Fulop would have to choose between running for re-election in May 2017 and gunning for the Democratic nomination for governor in June 2017. City spokesman Ryan Jacobs said opposition to the election timing change is "being stirred up by people who are putting their own politics and self-interest before what's best for the community." "Their actions would force taxpayers to be burdened with extra costs," Jacobs said. Jacobs said the council will likely postpone a final vote on the measure to "encourage additional discussion." Besides Camacho, the committee includes Rampaul Guyadeen, 55; April Kuzas, 36, a business consultant and local political player; Joan Terrell, an ex-council aide; and former Councilwoman Viola Richardson, a frequent Fulop foe when they both sat on the council together. It is led by Bill Matsikoudis, a longtime Fulop rival who lost his job as corporation counsel when Fulop unseated Jerramiah Healy in 2013. Guyadeen and Kuzas have worked on campaigns for Fulop foes in the past. MORE: As Jersey City debates election timing, arguments turn to turnout The committee is using a state law (40:69A-184) that allows voters to put recently approved ordinances up for popular vote. They need to collect signatures from at least 2,205 registered voters (that's 15% of the total votes cast in Jersey City in the last general election) and submit them to the City Clerk before the ordinance is effective, which is 20 days after adoption. If the petition drive is successful, the council then has an option to repeal the ordinance. If it doesn't, a special election is called that asks voters whether the measure should be approved. If called, the special election would be the second time voters cast ballots on the matter. On Nov. 3, voters narrowly approved a non-binding referendum that signaled support for moving elections. A Fulop administration official speaking on background slammed the new committee for seeking a "do-over" election after losing the one on Nov. 3. Committee members argue that the referendum attracted little interest ? fewer than 10,000 voted ?and was tainted by "misinformation" about the possible cost savings. Fulop's campaign twice sent out an email the week of the election saying the city would save $400,000 annually, even though city races are held once every four years. "We are trying to give more of the city an opportunity to look at this issue more clearly," said Guyadeen. A worker in the City Clerk's office said no one has attempted to repeal a city ordinance in this way for at least 15 years. That effort was not successful. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... r.html#incart_river_index
Posted on: 2015/11/20 23:20
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Obviously the answer is yes, if no one else got more. What part of this don't you understand? You have such a "no gray area" worldview, you can't choose between imperfect choices. I'm not crazy about eliminating runoffs, but choosing between runoffs and a Nov election I choose the latter as more inclusive.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 18:21
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Please define how you are referring to hypocrite in this instance. I also fail to see what putting a name on anything means. What I know, having actually spoken to you, is that you have no interest in actual facts. You discard economic history and replace it with your own delusional ideas of cause and effect. In essence, you are talking from a paper pulpit.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 18:13
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Dos A Cero
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What can I say, you are a hypocrite, you are impressing no one but yourself. At least I have the courage to put my name behind my statements and you don't.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 18:09
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2013/3/29 21:43 Last Login : 2023/9/5 18:27 From Bergen Hill
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I've called you a liar previously with quotes to specifically what you are lying about. I needn't repeat the action.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 18:03
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Dos A Cero
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Calling someone a liar without facts, is a way to intimidate. I am not easily frighten especially by someone who hides behind a phony name. Truth? Why don't you try to use your real name when you attack someone,pebble.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 17:40
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Well, you qualify as a liar. You lie here and you lie in meetings. As for history and long roots... I didn't write that he has no history. I said that you and him don't fully understand the history that you witnessed. This is often caused by a narrow focus that believes in causes and effects that are not, in fact, part of it. I understand that when you get confronted by the fact that your beliefs are not actually facts, you just start yelling and talking over the person. Thankfully, you can't do that on a message board.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 17:28
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Dos A Cero
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Liars? who said. Alex Santora was born in JC, there is a small park named after his father on Bright St. He has long roots in JC but according to you he has no history.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 16:27
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Why is it that we hear from the same people over and over again when they are continually proven to ( a ) be liars and ( b ) not fully understand history and economics?
Being old doesn't make one smart. Being in an area when an event took place doesn't mean you know the cause.
Posted on: 2015/11/20 15:15
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By REV. ALEXANDER SANTORA
Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop and Hoboken Mayor Dawn Zimmer have a lot in common. Both are transplanted in their respective cities and ran on reform platforms, which were soon jettisoned for political expediency. Fulop was more so than Zimmer as he mounts a not-so-secret campaign for governor. After six years, Zimmer may become a policy wonk when she departs City Hall. She and Fulop seem to lack interpersonal skills, which is odd to say about a politician. Without social media, they'd be in a different line of work. Zimmer is hardly seen outside City Hall unless she is posing for a photo op, like boosting the bike plan. After two years, Fulop still gets around a lot locally with many side trips via the parkway and turnpike as he collects chits for 2017. Both wanted to change the voting process in their cities. In 2011, the Hoboken City Council voted to move the municipal elections to November and eliminated runoffs elections. But only 25 percent of the registered voters went to the polls, and it cannot be revisited until 2022. That a mayor and council can extend their own terms even with popular approval seems self-serving. And that's exactly what Fulop wants even though the margin was very close and only 12 percent of registered voters actually voted this month. So much for boosting voter turnout in November. That Fulop believes he has a mandate is laughable, since Jersey City's Wards A and F voted it down. He does have a majority of the City Council and that will matter. But every past mayor had ally council members to do his bidding. Zimmer won more seats on the City Council this round, but with only a 23 percent turnout of registered voters. Again, nothing's magical about moving elections to November. She might not have been re-elected if there were runoffs in 2013 when she took office with less than 50 percent of the total. If Tim Occhipinti did not jump in at the last minute to run, Ruben Ramos might have won on the first ballot. Were a runoff required, Ramos might have overtaken Zimmer. He showed his strength in the 6th ward election with nearly 60 percent of the vote total this month. Fulop now wants to eliminate runoffs, which makes it possible for a real nutcase to ascend to Grove Street in a crowded field. Both Zimmer and Fulop want to change the culture in their respective cities, which they do not understand. Zimmer is a divisive presence in the city. She advocates policies that she thinks are important whether the residents really want or need them. Pretty soon, cars may need wings because flying will be the only way to navigate in and out of the perpetually clogged Hoboken streets. I use the decrepit, faded bicycle lanes and there are no bike traffic jams anytime. If Fulop and Zimmer want to improve voter turnout, they could pressure the State Senate and Assembly to legalize an extended voting period in advance of the election, allowed in many other states. We could also eliminate some of the poll workers by combining districts on election day and save oodles of money. But that would require real political acumen, which neither possesses. Instead, each of them uses their political capital to advance their personal interests and pet projects, like Fulop's mural project. It's neat looking but not as effective as really transforming Wards A, B, C, D, and F into some of those idyllic scenes on walls. But Ward E will always rescue him because that's where the developers will give him support as he salivates over Trenton. http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2 ... ng_city_elections_to.html
Posted on: 2015/11/20 15:11
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[/quote] Brewster, you do know that that race had 3 candidates, right? You also do know that the electoral vote is what matters in a presidential elections, right? You do know what electoral votes are, right? You do know the difference between popular and electoral votes right? You do know that Ross Perot took 19% of the popular vote compared to Bushs 37% and Clintons 43%, right? You do know that Clinton had to win the majority of electoral votes (69% to Bushs 31% and Perots 0%), right? You also do know that Bill Clinton was elected AFTER being nominated by his party in a PRIMARY right? Know what that is? You do know that JC mayors and council races do not have a primary process, right? I know you know these facts but addressing my concern is obviously too painful and forces you and others to deal with how glaringly hypocritical your support for eliminating runoffs are. So let's run with your example. If Bill Clinton only got 19% of the popular or electoral vote in that election , would he have been elected president? A runoff is necessary precisely because there is no primary process in nonpartisan elections so that the winner is not declared without achieving majority support.
Posted on: 2015/11/19 13:24
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[/quote] You do know that one can be elected President with less than 50%? There are no runoffs. If there were enough candidates, and there's no technical reason there can't be, a president could be elected with 19% of the vote. Bill Clinton was elected in 92 with 43%. You DID know that, right? So what's good enough for the presidency isn't good enough for a JC mayor?
Posted on: 2015/11/19 2:46
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Present a new argument, and you will get an actual response. Quote: You nor anyone here pushing to end runoffs have answered why voters should support moving to a scheme where 81% of voters can vote against you, yet you still win the election. Yes, we have. I even summarized those arguments, the last time you complained that "no one has given a reason to eliminate runoffs!" http://jclist.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=390749
Posted on: 2015/11/18 16:55
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Respond to the argument, instead of sidestepping. You nor anyone here pushing to end runoffs have answered why voters should support moving to a scheme where 81% of voters can vote against you, yet you still win the election. In what alternate universe is that good for democracy?
Posted on: 2015/11/18 16:35
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Repetition =\= Argument Everything you've said here, you've said before, and you've read the responses.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 18:11
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Schundler won a no-runoff election to become mayor with 19% of the votes cast in that election. Put another way, 81% of the people who voted did not vote for Schundler, yet he became mayor.
In what sane democratic society does that make sense? How do you become mayor of a major city when 81% of the people who voted did not chose you? This type of "democracy" should only exist in the twilight zone. The ironic thing is that voters will be asked to approve the devaluation of their vote.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 17:49
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First, no one pays me, I have been attending council meetings for over 40 years and have written hundreds of letters to the editor. I know JC better than most. Second, JC mayoralty high numbers for 2013, is low compared to 1985 race between Anthony Cucci and Gerry McCann. Finally, my activism resulted in the Van Vorst Park Association, (first president) and the person who started the Meet Ball dinners. I helped get the funding for the first renovation of Van Vorst Park, supported the city in creating handicapped curves at street crossing and spurred a flower box renaissance that was written about in Reader's Digest, September 1976. I asked the late Anthony Just of Secaucus to sue JC over tax abatements which resulted in 5% extra being paid to the county. Abatements are now 105%. I don't talk about what I have done because it takes more than one person to accomplish things. But to say someone pays me? That is ridiculous and borders on slander. I call it as I see it.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 17:25
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Of course Yvonne knows that - but it doesn't suit her argument. I'd still like to know - who is paying her?
Posted on: 2015/11/17 6:06
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Bingo! Christie-Buono race draws record low turnout for N.J. governor's election Star Ledger Nov 7 , 2013 ?TRENTON ? New Jersey voters may have set another record for low turnout Tuesday ? this time for a gubernatorial election.? With 99 percent of the voting precincts counted, 2,073,642 voters cast ballots for governor, according to the Associated Press. That's a shade less than 38 percent of the state's registered voters.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 2:29
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Turnout was higher in May 2013 than November 2013 because there was an exciting campaign with a candidate who engaged voters beyond the usual suspects. November's Gubernatorial race was a yawner because Christie was clearly going to win against Buono.
But November elections will generally bring out more voters. And in cases where the Mayoral race is the more exciting race it will help get more votes out for Governor. More people vote and the city will have more clout.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 2:04
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Yvonne is right here. Turnout in May 2013 mayoral race was a smidgen under 29%. Turnout in the Nov. 2013 governor's race (in JC) was just over 23%. 39,629 came out for mayor's race, 32,347 came out for governor in JC. I don't know how many people came out for the Nov. 2013 BOE race, but the total number of votes won't help because each voter gets three choices. Top vote-getter received under 10K votes.
Posted on: 2015/11/17 1:47
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He's been talking about both consolidated elections and eliminating runoffs since at least 2010. http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _councilman_steven_1.html IIRC, the nature of the laws require that this be done in parts. Quote: 2. The truth is more people voted in the May election than the general election. Unless they didn't. In 2013, the May turnout was lower than the November turnout. Fewer people voted for JC's Mayor in May, than voted for JC's Board of Ed in November. Same thing in 2011, by the way. Go ahead. Look it up. Quote: 3. 4% is not a mandate It doesn't have to be. Not to mention the vote was non-binding. Quote: 4. Our local elections will be lost with all the other elections. No, they won't. Quote: 5. Saving money? Even Sullivan said we will have to buy new machines. ...in his article slagging the idea. Impressive. Quote: 6. This is still a scheme by Fulop to be mayor when he loses the primary. Yes, he knew in 2010 that he'd be Mayor AND want a backup election for when he ran for Governor. :rolleyes:
Posted on: 2015/11/16 23:45
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