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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
 
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There's some truth to this, based on my own experience and those of friends. Younger, newer owners in JC tend to buy condos. If they're not buying new construction, they're buying condo conversions of older buildings. When the conversion happens, these condos are assessed as though they're new construction. The building I used to own in was a 19th century row house that previously was taxed based on its 1987 valuation. The pre-conversion tax was ridiculously low - around $7,000/year 11 years ago. When that building was sold and carved up into condos, the city reassessed each unit as new construction, with the four units last year paying anywhere from $8,000 to just over $10,000 in tax. The most severely undertaxed properties downtown are those brownstones/row houses whose current values are in the neighborhood of $1 million but pay just slightly more tax than a condo that's a quarter of the size. When friends ask about buying in JC, I advise them to avoid one of these recent condo conversions because you'll be hit with a double-whammy of an unfairly high tax burden on top of frequent costly repairs (hey, something is always breaking in a 130-year-old building). With the newer buildings, you shop for a PILOT, which will at least provide stability in taxes during the term of abatement, and stuff isn't breaking so often. Brewster's also right in that the longtime owners - those early pioneers who bought in downtown more than 25 years ago - are mostly gone. Those people weren't dumb, they cashed out and sold their homes during the bubble. An elderly couple who lived a couple doors down basically funded their retirement when they sold in 2007.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 18:15
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Home away from home
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jcdd's assumption is that most buyers in Jersey City opt for new construction - shiny new condos. I don't believe this is true.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 15:42
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I'm not so sure this POV is correct. When I search through records, it's not easy to find many properties with ownership dating back more than 25 years. Since there is no reval of a property on transfer, new owners get the cheap taxes, and tremendous numbers of undertaxed Downtown properties have transferred in the last decade.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 15:31
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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As usual John, you don't and probably can't provide any counter-argument, just empty noise. Why don't you start another recall petition, and fail again? Rabble rousing is your thing, right Mr Lynch? JCPAC running low on donations?
http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index ... _is_failing_city_let.html http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... residents_begin_re_2.html http://jcpac.capellic.com/about Quote:
Posted on: 2013/9/17 14:31
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The reval needs to happen. Right now, it is the younger, newer buyers that are paying the lion's share of taxes in the area, while those older folks that have been living her for 30 years are getting off paying taxes that are 30 years out of date. I am tired of the baby boomers expecting the younger generation to pay for their lifestyle. We are already paying your social security, your medicare --social programs that us younger folks will never get at the same levels that are currently in place. Younger folks have grossly inflated college costs, a more difficult job market and no such thing as "retirement" or pensions. We will be working (and paying our student loans) until we die. No such thing as gardening, traveling and playing golf in our 60s like baby boomers today. Nor, by the way, can we afford to buy the house that you are selling in Jersey City.
It's a much more difficult world for young people now because the older generations ran up the bills and we are stuck paying for it. If you can't afford the updated taxes, sell your house, make a huge profit and move to Florida.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 14:30
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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Come on you don't actually have to believe everything a politician says. During the campaign the mayor would give a convoluted speech about how all Jersey City property values derive from a brownstone in Paulus Hook. Delusional.
We are talking about different markets, different demographics. Go have a drink. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/9/17 13:22
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Debatable for 2 reasons: downtown price falls will likely act as a drag on valuations elsewhere, and there's likely to be enough motivated sellers in every ward to drive prices down in the ward. And perversely, even if what you predict happens, and other wards see a relative increase in valuation, then they would be under-assessed with a locked-in tax abatement until the next reval. I don't think the consequences of the reval were considered. I'd like to see it happen, but planned a little better for the overall benefit of both the City and it's residents. PS: Perhaps not popular with downtown, but is there any reason different wards in JC can't have different county equalization rates? That would probably keep assessed values closer to reality, and make the next reval much less painful.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 4:27
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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It's funny how everyone says the reval will drop Downtown prices. Yet nobody but me is pointing out that rather than be sucked down by the vortex of falling prices, the other wards where taxes FALL should see a bump in values! And post reval Downtown buyers could care less that the sellers lost some equity, like I said they only look at their monthly nut. They may go elsewhere at first as sellers are stubborn and try and keep prices unrealistically high. But even that can't last, just as in the 08 crash, "must sell" deals set a new comp baseline and the prices will align with the new reality.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 3:54
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Funny thing about markets, is they don't obey the simple math rules you seem to be applying. I'll give you a for example. If the tax increase forces a prices drop of > 15%, a lot of people can appeal on a comp sales basis and reduce their tax burden. Which in turn will whiplash taxes back up for everyone else. The taxes may be a zero-sum game, but property valuations are not. Price drops downtown could well trigger price drops city-wide, wiping out a lot of folks equity. People thinking of buying downtown won't automatically consider other parts of JC, and may well take their money elsewhere. Net money may well flow out of all of JC. And you are simply wrong about there being few people forced to sell. A lot of people are struggling to pay their taxes as-is, and any increase in valuation is paper profit only, and won't pay the tax bill. The reval will hit properties across all of JC, potentially flooding the market with motivated sellers, and driving prices down. Given the above, you're wrong about not being a buying opportunity for prospective landlords. Your simple math ignores the real possibility of a significant crash in local prices, motivated sellers, and complications like re-appraisals after price drops. Core understanding of the market? I don't pretend to understand it. But I know if you change the underlying rules, the law of unexpected consequences always comes into play.
Posted on: 2013/9/17 3:40
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Once again a core misunderstanding of the market. Since a property's "cost" to a noncash buyer is it's monthly payments, there will be no effective "discount", since the price will only likely fall so as the carrying costs to the buyer of mortgage plus taxes remains the same. Not that I'd buy Downtown properties that would be overpriced even if they dropped significantly, but if my monthly nut as buyer is the same, I've gotten no bargain, even in the probably rare event that someone is forced to sell. Longtime owners who have made hundreds of thousands, or even millions in some cases, can afford to pay some of that as taxes. Newer owners have deeper pockets, and should have been advised by their brokers and attorneys that the situation could not last. Almost nobody is arguing for a better executed reval, they just want the status quo to continue. I say again, opposing the reval is nothing more than demanding that other residents keep paying more than their share so you can pay less than your share. I can see no justification for that.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 23:50
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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On the topic of disgusting, perhaps you think you can benefit from buying up discounted properties to rent out from those forced to sell? I agreed with you that the property tax should be fairly applied. I just happen to believe that there has got to be a better way than simply a hard shock to the system that happened last reval. The shock should be buffered. Perhaps short-term abatements, tax deferral until transfer, or something similar?
Posted on: 2013/9/16 21:27
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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We all would like a more efficient government. That really has nothing to do with the issue under discussion, taxing the citizens fairly and equally. You're essentially saying "we can't increase the taxes on the undertaxed because that would reduce their equity, therefore we must continue to overtax the rest of the property owners and continue to suppress their values". I find the argument disgusting. You can argue that there should be less opacity about JC taxes for buyers, but that has more to do with the mendacity of the real estate professionals not disclosing how taxes work here. Any buyer should be told "the taxes on this property at this closing price are x% under what is considered appropriate by the city and will be subject to change in event of a revaluation." It's 4th grade arithmetic to calculate correct taxes from a given price. There's no excuse for anyone to think "wow, the taxes on this place are low! I'll buy it because they'll always be low!"
Posted on: 2013/9/16 20:25
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I pay my way. I pay a lot more relative to my downtown neighbors, down to the bizarre way taxes have been historically assessed. And I would benefit more than most downtown from the reval.
And what is voodoo about paying for the city services you get? That's not about cutting taxes, but it forces more transparency and accountability. Seems more like voodoo handing the City a blank check every quarter and hoping they actually spend it on something useful. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/9/16 19:50
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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LOLOL!!! well said.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 18:12
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Thats BS. I think it used to be called voodoo economics. So then cut everbodys taxes and everybodys value goes up. We are paying higher taxes so that you can protect downtown property values. Pay your way. Taxes are to fund services not to boost your home value. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/9/16 17:51
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Thank you! well said.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 12:37
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I didn't have time yesterday to look for the Path report, but here it is http://www.panynj.gov/corporate-infor ... th_minutes_may29_2013.pdf
By the way, the last abatement was under Healy, the former Welfare Building received a 12 year abatement about 4 months ago. The idea that Fulop wants 30 tax abatement for Journal Square is appalling. The Welfare Building is in Journal Square.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 12:32
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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Once again, wrong Kushner. Charles was to be appointed by McGreevey the background check was not the issue campaign contributions were. As for the May 29 report KRE had to make some deals with the Port Authority to get the zoning and variances they needed from the city. The only connection is that they are brothers everything else regarding this relationship is false.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 9:11
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Brewster - property tax as it stands isn't applied fairly, and you're right - it should. But there is a point in Boris's post. The reval would pull the rug on a large number of downtown properties, wiping millions off overall property values. JC doesn't need that kind of self-inflicted "black swan" at this time.
I'd also argue that property tax is a pretty regressive and archaic form of taxation, that contributes to local government waste and inefficiency. I'd much rather pay for local services pretty much like my water bill - pay for use, with a flat rate for essential services.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 5:50
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Boris, where are your tears for the people who have been paying too much for decades so some people could pay too little? THIS IS A ZERO SUM GAME PEOPLE!! You can't protect some taxpayers without shafting others. But it just so happens the ones who have underpaid the most are the best connected and loudest (Yvonne) and the overpayers are less educated and empowered. There's just so much misinformation and deliberate disinformation in this issue. Take the recent article. "According to the city, real estate attorneys, and county officials, the average property owner in Jersey City is paying a tax rate that is less than 32 percent of the value of the property." That's a pile of crap that's sure to muddy the waters and leave no one wiser. They're referring to the ASSESSMENT RATIO, which is not anything like a tax rate. Indifference or incompetence? It doesn't really matter does it?
Posted on: 2013/9/16 3:10
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The only thing I must correct- McGreevey wanted to appoint Kushner as head of the Board for Port Authority Board which includes the PATH but he declined. The report I referred earlier is May 29th, the minutes with the Kushner Real Estate Group, PATH report.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 3:01
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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For the third time please check your facts. The Kushner you are talking about is Charles Kushner he runs the Kushner Companies and has nothing to do with Journal Square The one that built Grove Point is KRE and is run by his brother Murray. Different people. Different business ethics and different connections. They split up as partners over a decade ago and in this regard have nothing to do with each other and your insinuations about KRE are absolutely false. Do a simple google search and check it out yourself. I believe the New Yorker did an article on the rift between the 2 brothers a few years back.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 2:39
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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There is a PATH report that came out either in late Mayor or late June. This report which is online, is about Kushner using his own money to fix the PATH. Why would a person use their own money to enhance the PATH at Journal Square? The answer is - you have property that surrounds or is near Journal Square. Besides it is not slander to say someone owns property in Journal Square. If you look all over Jersey City you see the Kushner logo, I believe it is KRE. Let's not forget, McGreevey's appointment to the PATH when he was governor was Kushner, but Kushner had to go through a background check, so he declined the appointment. This was in the papers. It is not slander. Kushner's son is married to Trump's daughter, so why is it wrong to mention development?
Posted on: 2013/9/16 2:24
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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I don't profess to know libel law you sub moron. I know a misstatement of fact when I see one. You spew volumes of such misstatements when it suits your needs its all sour grapes. Surely it would have been different if you we're elected. Thank god that didn't happen, and will likely never happen. Yvonne was slamming the wrong Kushner as someone who professes to be an advocate for the people you both should be more careful. Fulop has a tough job ahead of him stop your bellyaching and do something that would be constructive.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 2:08
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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The main problem is that a lot of people will not be able to afford the huge hike that the new tax will be. Now, the problem is, when we estimate how much we are willing to pay for the dwelling, we look at "can I afford that much monthly". Imagine you bought something for, say, 300K. You put 60K down, the rest is mortgage. At 4% for 30 years that would be 1.4K monthly. If the taxes are 6K a year, that would be 2.8 monthly. The person who buys that house from you will evaluate it based on the same monthly sum. Don't expect an influx of wealthy idiots interested to pay a lot for a not-quite-new-york. So to compensate them for the higher taxes, you will have to lower the price by about 35K, - which means if your equity is about 70K by now, you will get only the half of it. Now, if the mortgage rates go up by just .5%, your buyer will have less money to spend, and you will get not 35K (the half of your equity), but about 23K. If many others will be selling at the same time, - (oh, the surprise, they will be!) - you will probably get nothing at all. Again, that was a calculation for a very modest hike. You people discuss things as if your fairness experiments will be exercised in a test tube with no real effect on any real people.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 1:31
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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So you know libel law now. Someone is concerned about abatements that Councilman Fulop railed against (except for the building he is now living in) and Mayor Fulop wants to look like he is on the side of the taxpayer but is waffling and creating a policy that looks like he doing something, but does little. The 30 years tax abatements have to stop.
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Posted on: 2013/9/16 1:16
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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Just can't stay away
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If I was the Kushner that "owns a lot of Journal Square" I would sue you for slander. You should check your facts before slandering people.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 1:10
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I opened an inquiry with the Residents Response Center on this subject and received an acknowledgement. Then nothing. It has been almost a week. Useless.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 0:55
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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I was at the Freeholders meeting when Don Kenny spoke before the freeholders on JC reval. First, no mayor can cancel the reval once the county tells a city it can do it. JC already received a year delay. Don Kenny said 95% of the work has been completed. The only way a reval can be rejected is by the tax assessor based on poor quality work but the work has not been given to the tax assessor. Most likely, the firm will sue JC and the state attorney general will joint in the suit. If I live in Hoboken, I would urge Hoboken to sue JC since they pay 17% of the county tax bill based on a population of 50,000 while JC pays 31% based on a population of 250,000. Our ratable base is lower because abatements are not added to the ratable base, it is why Secaucus sued JC more than ten years ago . Fulop does not want to do a reval because he plans on giving 30 year abatements to Journal Square. Kushner, who helped McGreevey in his mayoral and governor bids owns a lot of Journal Square. Kushner son Jared also owns the NY Observer, a paper that give Fulop the positive press. People would be furious with 30 years abatements while their taxes are going up 3 times the due to revaluation. Bottom line, no mayor can stop a reval.
Posted on: 2013/9/16 0:02
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Re: Jersey City mayor-elect orders end to citywide reval
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County still waiting to hear from city on reval
The Hudson County Board of Taxation has sent a letter to Jersey City inquiring what the status is of the city?s property revaluation, according to county spokesman Jim Kennelly. He said the county hopes to have a response by the next freeholders? meeting, scheduled for Oct. 3. ?If there is no response from the city by then,? Kennelly said, ?the Board of Taxation will consult with the assistant attorney general assigned to the state Division of Taxation about what steps to take next? Mayor Steven Fulop directed the city to suspend the city?s reval ? which was started in 2011 under his predecessor, Mayor Jerramiah T. Healy ? shortly after he was elected to office. The reval was the first the city had done since 1988. But the county is eager for Jersey City to see the process through. According to the city, real estate attorneys, and county officials, the average property owner in Jersey City is paying a tax rate that is less than 32 percent of the value of the property. Kennelly said the county typically likes to see a reval done whenever that number falls below 70 percent. ?That?s the standard,? Kennelly said. Last month Fulop told the Reporter that his administration planned to file a petition with the Hudson County Board of Taxation asking that the reval be suspended. As of last week Kennelly said that petition had not been filed. Read more: Hudson Reporter - JERSEY CITY BRIEFS
Posted on: 2013/9/15 22:42
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