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Re: Jack Shaw found dead!
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Webmaster
 
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I removed FOURTY posts from this topic today. When posting (especially in serious topics such as this one) make sure you follow the rules that appear above the text entry box when you submit your Reply.
The 40 posts I removed were off topic.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 20:40
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Re: Jack Shaw found dead!
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Newbie
 
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Why isn't anyone discussing the other possible--and far more likely-- scenario here-- homicide. Suppose this guy was about to flip on one of the accused and who knows who else-- it makes much more sense that someone would take him out via a faked suicide. It also fits in with what someone posted earlier about the photographer being assulted by some thug outside the guy's apartment-- perhaps someone trying to prevent the truth from being found? Suicide is way too convenient an assumption here, especially considering this guy may have been the only thing preventing further indictments. As far as the police quickly agreeing to the suicide scenario, are you really surprised? It's all one machine.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 20:27
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Re: Jack Shaw found dead!
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Home away from home
 
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From the New York Times:
-------------------------------------- July 29, 2009 N.J. Man Facing Bribe Charge Is Found Dead By DAVID M. HALBFINGER A veteran New Jersey political consultant who was among dozens arrested in a huge corruption sweep last week was found dead in his Jersey City apartment on Tuesday, the same day that one of three mayors charged in the case resigned. The circumstances surrounding the death of the consultant, Jack M. Shaw, are ?suspicious,? said Edward J. DeFazio, the Hudson County prosecutor. He said it did not appear to be a homicide. ?It could be natural, it could be accidental, it could be suicide,? he said, refusing to elaborate. An autopsy is set for Wednesday. His death, reported by a companion to the authorities at 5:17 p.m., came hours after Dennis Elwell, the mayor of Secaucus, stepped down, becoming the first elected official to quit after being charged in the sprawling political corruption case. Mr. Shaw, 61, once an adviser to some of New Jersey?s most influential Democrats, more recently worked mainly for developers doing business in Hudson County. A top client was Metrovest Equities, developer of the Beacon, a 10-building apartment complex on the site of the former Jersey City Medical Center. But that type of work appears to have led him into the cross hairs of federal prosecutors. He was charged on Thursday with accepting $10,000 cash from Solomon Dwek, the federal informant at the center of the corruption scandal, who was posing as a real estate developer seeking political help for his projects. Prosecutors said Mr. Shaw proposed that Mr. Dwek make $10,000 in donations to the re-election campaign of the Jersey City mayor, Jerramiah T. Healy, in exchange for approvals. According to a federal complaint, Mr. Shaw later told Mr. Dwek that he had given the money to Mr. Healy. Aides to Mr. Healy, who has not been charged and has denied any wrongdoing, did not respond to requests for comment on Tuesday night. Prosecutors say that Mr. Shaw also introduced Mr. Dwek to several other officials who were eventually charged. Mr. Shaw was a longtime Democratic operative who cut his teeth working for Mayor Richard J. Daley of Chicago and later was a campaign aide to Gov. Jim Florio. He also worked on Robert G. Torricelli?s 1996 Senate race, Robert E. Andrews?s 1997 bid for the Democratic nomination for governor, and Jon S. Corzine?s election to the Senate in 2000. Over time, he became a fixture in Hudson County Democratic circles. He was an adviser to Robert C. Janiszewski, the former county executive later convicted of corruption. Lawyers for Mr. Elwell, of Secaucus, announced his resignation on Tuesday afternoon. He is accused of taking $10,000 cash from Mr. Dwek, the F.B.I. informant, who in his case said he was looking for help building a hotel on Route 3 in Secaucus. Mr. Elwell, a Democrat, quit so he could focus on his defense, one of the lawyers, Jeffrey G. Garrigan, said. ?He didn?t want to have his problems interfere with the business of Secaucus,? Mr. Garrigan said. ?He doesn?t want to be a distraction.? Mr. Corzine has repeatedly called for the resignations of the mayors, Assembly members and other elected officials charged by federal prosecutors on Thursday. But Mr. Elwell was ?under no pressure,? Mr. Garrigan said. ?He just determined it was in the best interests of his family and the people of Secaucus.? Another of Mr. Elwell?s lawyers, Thomas Cammarata, said Mr. Elwell had ?absolutely no intention? of pleading guilty. Mr. Elwell, 64, had been mayor of Secaucus since 1999. He had been expected to face a stiff re-election campaign in the fall against Councilman Michael Gonnelli. Mr. Garrigan said Mr. Elwell earned around $25,000 as mayor, a part-time job. Most of Mr. Elwell?s income is from a family-owned trucking business, the lawyer said. Mayors Peter J. Cammarano III of Hoboken and Anthony R. Suarez of Ridgefield, Assemblymen L. Harvey Smith of Jersey City and Daniel M. Van Pelt of Ocean County and nearly a dozen officials in Jersey City were also arrested last week but have not resigned. In Jersey City, Mayor Healy said on Monday that he was suspending without pay those city employees who were charged last week. Mr. Healy himself has said he was referred to in several criminal complaints as an unnamed recipient of campaign donations from Mr. Dwek in exchange for anticipated help on real estate projects, but he has denied wrongdoing. Nate Schweber contributed reporting. Link
Posted on: 2009/7/29 20:07
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Home away from home
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I stand safely and securely behind my judgement of you based on what you posted here. As Maya Angelou says, when people show you who they are, believe them. But yes, let's end this now. Peace.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:40
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Sorry, but this is sanctimonious bullshit. I have not said anything hateful and objecting to the idea that we need to be silent about the circumstances surrounding the death of a public figure under indictment to spare the feelings of his loved ones is not a lack of compassion--it is a defense of public discourse. Do you care to share an example of how I "tainted the story with my own projections?"
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:26
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I live by the river.
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Home away from home
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You're very welcome. May want to brush up on your human compassion chapter, and forgiveness too. For extra credit. Listen, I'm not saying that Mr Shaw or any of the other 44 are excusable and not deserving of judgement. I hope and expect them to be punished as appropriate to their crimes. But to cast such a hateful tone over the death of one of them? Beyond. You did more than express anger over the corruption. You tainted a story with your own projections. The fact that others did too doesn't make it right. It makes it even more scummy and sickening. Bottom line: You can think what you want. Maybe just be careful how you say it. And when. And to whom.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:17
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Re: Jack Shaw found dead!
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Home away from home
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I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm trying to turn aside the argument that no one can say anything in a public forum that might hurt the feelings of the man's family and friends. With all due respect to them, this is a story that affects us all and they are just going to have to deal with it. As for "judging," how exactly am I doing that? The man was indicted. That is a fact. Mentioning it is not "judging" him We don't all live in glass houses, you know, especially when it comes to bribery and public corruption. I'll take my chances that expressing anger at the corruption of my public officials will not come back to haunt me. Thanks for your concern.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:09
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I live by the river.
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Re: Jack Shaw found dead!
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Home away from home
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It is major breaking news, that's why. The guy was indicted. He was a close political associate of powerful people. The general public does not owe him a silent mourning period and we certainly are not obliged to stay silent on the topic of his recent indictment or apparent suicide in order to spare the feeling of friends or family members. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "callous." Despite your concern that they might hear about what the public thinks of him, we are not speaking to his family or loved ones. Would you feel better if we interjected a few parenthetical "may his soul rest in peaces" in the discussion?
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:01
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I live by the river.
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Home away from home
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Who are you to decide that? Plus, you'd be surprised. This is a big small town. And this news has shaken a lot of people up, whether they knew Mr. Shaw or not. And also? Glass house, stones, all that. Careful with being so quick to judge. It will come back to you later.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 19:00
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Home away from home
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Quote:
I wouldn't have said anything, but someone asked if we were all happy now.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:51
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Is in JC, frequents this message board...
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:50
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Home away from home
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It's already one of the lead stories in all local news and it's getting significant national media coverage. You'd be amazed at how many loved ones going through their shock and grief will click or even be referred by others to things being said about that person. If it's even one or two that find their way here to read what's been said, that makes it okay to suspend all empathy? The story isn't going away any time soon. There's plenty of time. Why must a death be discussed so callously less than 24 hours after? Please explain to me the urgency.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:45
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Home away from home
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Not to worry. How many people mourning the death of a loved one recently indicted for public corruption would be searching the internet to find out what strangers think about it?
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:39
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I live by the river.
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Home away from home
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I personally know someone very much affected by his death. Therefore I am concerned over this thread which will surely make their grief much worse if they view it.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:32
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Yes, I think it is too much to ask. When someone just indicted for public corruption in a conspiracy touching on many of our public officials apparently commits suicide, people have every right talk about it. I doubt his loved ones are rushing to this forum to see what strangers have to say about it, so the idea that we need to be silent to respect their feelings is a red herring.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 18:10
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Home away from home
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Yay for moral relativism! Nicely done. Quote:
There's nobody saying a gag order should be placed on openly discussing the charges against anyone involved in the corruption case broken by the FBI last Thursday. But is it too much to ask for people to recognize that there are people out there who knew the deceased, friends and family who in one week were hit not only by the man's arrest but then his sudden death? There's a time and a place. Would it kill you to wait maybe a day or two, for his body to at least get cold? What do you accomplish by treating the guy as a convicted criminal the morning after his body is found by his girlfriend in their apartment? There are dozens of other politicians wrapped up in this for you to convict by proxy, maybe grow an empathy gene and take it easy for a couple of days on the dead guy. And, shocking though this may be, I never even knew who the guy was before last Thursday, and certainly never met the man.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:59
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Home away from home
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I'm sorry, but I don't see any "gleeful" posts about this man's death. What I do see is a suggestion that his death means we can no longer talk about the corruption charges against him, but instead should be kind for the sake of the feelings of his friends and family. There is a place for such kindness, but this is not it.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:49
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Home away from home
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I am indifferent as to his death, heartless bastard that I guess I am, but I am not indifferent to the defense being put forth for him by less-than-reputable folks like Gerald McCann and Willie Flood. I won't restrain from reminding folks about what crimes have been alleged.
But I notice that tqwert2 has no qualms about grave dancing. No, that's not me.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:49
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Newbie
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"I met him when I first came into politics," said Bill Gaughan, a 16-year Jersey City councilman representing the Heights. "In my book he was always a gentleman, always trying to move Jersey City forward."
Um...may we see that "book" please?
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:41
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Home away from home
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Damn, that's cold. He didn't kill anyone - no need to be THIS hateful.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:38
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Home away from home
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And what you continue to dodge is that your supposed "indifference" has inspired you to speak out. Repeatedly. That's not actual indifference, no matter what you choose to call it. Nobody's asking you to "pretend to care." Just to exercise some self-control.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:37
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Home away from home
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If pretending to care when a stranger dies is moral, then I am immoral. But I think you are confusing indifference and stoicism for cruelty. Or maybe you are trying to say that I am glad the man is dead, which I am not. Whatever.
I still think my morals would stack up against anyone's though if you want to run a contest or something.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:34
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Just can't stay away
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A person who kills himself after an indictment has admitted guilt as far as I'm concerned. I'm certainly glad he's dead.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:24
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Not too shy to talk
 
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I have to say I agree with Crazy_Chester.
I do feel sorry for his family having to go through all this. But if he did commit suicide for having been caught in his illegal activities, then he does not deserve my sympathy. He robbed people of a chance to question him.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:22
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Home away from home
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More like "CrazyChester is exhibiting morally bankrupt behavior, but since the majority views his moral bankruptcy as less egregious than Jack Shaw's alleged morally bankrupt behavior, that makes what CC is doing okay."
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:20
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Home away from home
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Does pretending not to care so much make you feel like less a part of the story? "Honesty" references truth. Save for the fact that Shaw was indicted and not convicted, there's no "truth" to be found in your gleeful posts about his death, simply conclusions you've drawn. Which you feel are so important that they must be shared. But I forgot, you don't care, so very much. If you offered honesty, I'd consider pardoning it. But what you're actually crapping out all over this thread is schadenfreude, and you're not honest enough to admit that.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:18
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Home away from home
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Is Jack Shaw related to Lois Shaw?
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:16
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Home away from home
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Hilarious! You mean like he who is without sin should cast the first stone?
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:14
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Home away from home
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What was insensitive? That I am admitting that I don't care? Should I have sent flowers? Offered anonymous online condolences to strangers who probably would never read them? That would be weird. Did you send flowers? I am not dancing on his grave or gossiping/speculating about his cause of death. But the guy picked my pocket. I believe he was a crook and his death does not make him any less guilty or sympathetic in my eyes. The posthumous efforts at sainthood from his fellow crooks are a bit much to me. Why do people pretend to care so much when people who they never met die? Its like the weirdos at Michael Jackson's funeral. Does it make you feel like a part of the story? Again, pardon my honesty.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:11
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Home away from home
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He was indicted for public corruption and the members of this forum were his alleged victims. One can respect the personal feelings of those who liked the guy, and still be legitimately angry at his actions. I'm sorry, but his death does not wipe the slate clean.
Posted on: 2009/7/29 17:09
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