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Gay Marriage now legal in IOWA?? What's up with NJ???
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Quite a regular
 
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I just read that the Iowa supreme court struck down the gay marriage ban. We in NJ should be embarrased that for some time legislation to allow our gay citizens full marriage equality has been sitting around with no action. I encourage those of you who feel that this is an outrage to call our state senator, Sandra Cunningham (201) 451-5100, and our assemblyman, Anthony Chiappone (201) 436-0473
and voice your opinions. Call Governor Corzine , too. (609) 292-6000.
Posted on: 2009/4/3 22:51
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Re: Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban
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Quite a regular
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I just read that the Iowa supreme court struck down the gay marriage ban. We in NJ should be embarrased that for some time legislation to allow our gay citizens full marriage equality has been sitting around with no action. I encourage those of you who feel that this is an outrage to call our state senator, Sandra Cunningham (201) 451-5100, and our assemblyman, Anthony Chiappone (201) 436-0473
and voice your opinions. Call Governor Corzine , too. (609) 292-6000.
Posted on: 2009/4/3 19:58
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Re: Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Yeah, we have been somewhat distracted by Loopy's "separate but equal" cheap shot. I am all for gay couples having the same rights as married couples. Let's extend this to all unmarried couples too so at least people who have made a commitment to each other without resorting to the law can have the same visitation rights in hospital etc. Apparently, however, that is not enough so this is not only about civil rights. By the way, nobody has been "singled out" by the law for discrimination. Married couples enjoy certain privileges and perhaps some of these should be looked at because there is no real justification for some of them except in the case where they have children. Of course, that would be political suicide.
Posted on: 2008/12/4 12:36
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Re: Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban
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Quite a regular
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And by the way, no one is proposing that the civil rights struggle that blacks have fought in this country is equal to the one being fought by gay. I would put it like this: the black experience is The Civil Rights Fight whereas the one for gays is a civil rights fight.
Posted on: 2008/12/4 2:07
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Re: Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban
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Quite a regular
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Sinik,
The issue becomes one of civil rights when a segment of the population that is subject to discrimination is singled out in some inappropriate way by the law. In this case, gays have been specifically excluded from the rights that the state grants to married couples.
Posted on: 2008/12/4 2:02
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Quote:
In many ways they certainly are. Not physically separated, but certainly distinct in the eyes of the law as it stands now (intestate succession anyone?). As for unmarried couples, their legal status has no bearing on this question whatsoever, except that in the case of straight unmarried couples, those couples have the option of getting married. Gay "unmarried" couples do not. And for no good reason other than some people don't want a gay union to be called "marriage." It is semantics without a point.
Posted on: 2008/12/3 17:09
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Posted on: 2008/12/3 16:29
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Because he can, I guess. We have raised this question a couple of times now, and we have received no better answer.
Posted on: 2008/12/2 19:27
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Just can't stay away
 
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Quote:
I fail to understand why the Webmaster dissolved this post, in a thread titled "Same Sex Marriage in NJ", into this thread titled "Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban". I can see they are vaguely similar, but this current thread is clearly about California and the racial make-up of the vote and the one friendoflois tried to start was very much about NJ and therefore Jersey City. This is something that will affect our Gay and Lesbian community and I feel its been lost in the mire of a more sensationalist and less relevant issue.
Posted on: 2008/12/2 19:09
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Are gay couples and married straight people segregated in the same way that whites and blacks once were? I don't think so. Do gay un-married couples and straight un-married couples have any significant differences in rights that you could compare to the differences in the way that whites and blacks used to live in the '50s and '60s? If you try to argue that there are, I am sure there are some more votes that you will lose the next time a vote on the issue is held.
It's not me you need to convince.
Posted on: 2008/12/2 1:23
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Oh, I see, kind of like "separate but equal," right?
Posted on: 2008/12/1 23:58
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Re: Any thoughts? Most of California's Black & Latino Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban
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Quite a regular
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I object to the joining of my post concerning same sex marriage in NJ that started this thread with the thread on the Black/Latino vote's effect on Prop 8's passing. The issues are seperate.
What I wanted to know was how JClisters felt about the governor backing down on the issue here in NJ. Until recently, it was supposed to be a slam dunk for 2009 but now none of the bills are any of the legislative agendae. It seems that our elected officials have developed cold feet. I guess they are afraid of having some of that Mormon money find its way to NJ. I would encourage those of you who rightly see this as a civil rights issue to contact your legislators and tell them so.
Posted on: 2008/11/29 18:46
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Posted on: 2008/11/28 16:30
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Just can't stay away
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Can democrats be rednecks? Because I'm going to say that Jersey City is loaded with them.
Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:56
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and of course there's David Allen Coe's redneck anthem.
Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:45
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Quote:
TheHookJC wrote: Loopy, please give me the definition of a "redneck."
Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:42
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Just can't stay away
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Loopy, please give me the definition of a "redneck."
Posted on: 2008/11/28 14:20
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Quote:
+1!  I've been married, am straight and politically active since the late 60's, and find Proposition 8 just one more example of how equal rights have been historically denied or marginalized at best for many of our populace including gays, lesbians, transsexuals and transgenders aand among others such as blacks and latinos and the list continues. The fact is all of us who believe in equal rights for ALL persons must fight constantly those who would deny what is rightfully granted to each and everyone of us. Thanks much, loopy, for quoting Mill, someone all should read and understand. Quote: [...]Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant ? society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it ? its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs as protection against political despotism. ? On Liberty
Posted on: 2008/11/28 13:04
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Loopy is right about that. Lots of rednecks in Bakersfield. Though not so much now. The redneck children got stoned and mellowed out. Now they're yuppies.
Posted on: 2008/11/28 10:34
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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No that's not bigotry, it's just an opinion and it has no relation or reaction to anybody else's opinion. I respect the opinion of gay people and others that think differently (and they should at least be tolerant of my opinion unless they are themself bigots). Quote:
That is more like bigotry, because you are intolerant to somebody else's opinion you insult them by calling them "rednecks" or questioning their adequacy. You are not going to win any converts among the ranks of those that *are* married with this approach but that is exactly what proponents of gay marriage need to do if they are to make any headway in the current system. One approach might be to articulate why equal rights is not enough and why any resolution must include the word "marriage".
Posted on: 2008/11/28 6:35
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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TheHookJC wrote:
Quote:
I said rednecks and other species of "Christian." And, if you'd bothered to look, you'd have found that 10 of the 50 largest evangelical "megachurches" are located in...wait for it...California. And if you don't think California has rednecks, I invite you to spend some time in Bakersfield or Truckee and get back to me. As for Hook's post below, the "blacks did prop 8!!" bullsh1t myth has been thoroughly debunked: Link Still haven't read Mill have you? Well, I'll save you some time (I know, it looks TL;DR, but do it anyway): Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant ? society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it ? its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs as protection against political despotism. ? On Liberty As for Sinik's observations about the Hook's percentages, I think it stems from the use of the word "electorate"--it should read "of those who voted." So, while blacks may be 6.1% of the electorate, that is, those eligible to vote, of those who actually voted, they made up 10%. And while I agree with Sinik that some of the anti-prop 8 demonstrations were highly counter-productive, I also believe that Sinik's position that gays and lesbians should have equal rights to marry so long as you don't call it marriage is nothing less than veiled bigotry. If you think that two dudes getting married somehow undermines your marriage to a woman, you have serious self-esteem issues. Oh, and in b4 gay. I'm straight.
Posted on: 2008/11/28 0:16
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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quote]
TheHookJC wrote: Interesting break down. Those who voted for Prop 8 84% of weekly churchgoers ? (32% of electorate); 82% of Republicans ? (29% of electorate); 81% of white evangelicals ? (17% of electorate); 70% of African Americans ? (10% of electorate); 65% of all Protestants - (43% of electorate); 65% of white Protestants ? (29% of electorate); 64% of voters w/children in household ? (40% of electorate); 64% of Catholics ? (30% of electorate); 61% of age 65 and over ? (15% of electorate); 60% of married people ? (62% of electorate); 59% of suburban dwellers ? (51% of electorate); 58% of non-college graduates ? (50% of electorate); 53% of Latinos ? (18% of electorate); 51% of white men ? (31% of electorate).[/quote] Something not quite right about these numbers. (i) African Americans only comprise about 7% of the population, so how do they get to be 10% of the electorate? (ii) The Latino population in California is actually more like 35%, so how are they only 18% of the electorate even allowing for an illegal component? However, assuming there is some truth in the above numbers, The biggest group of people that voted for prop 8 is married people. This group does not want marriage to be re-defined to mean something different to what it means now. The demographic of this group is not likely to change any time soon so it doesn't really matter which particular group protesters decide to target, so long as this is to be decided democratically, this proposition will always succeed. I also think the manner of the protests is self-defeating and is not going to change anybody's mind. [FTR, I favor equal rights for all couples, but not the requirement to call this "marriage".]
Posted on: 2008/11/27 14:08
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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+1, VanVorster. The Black and Latino headline shows an embarrassing bias.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 20:25
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Thanks HooksJC for posting and elucidating and fleshing out the matter despite the sensationalist "divide and conquer" and scapegoating headline. Because this type of headline has been bandied about incessantly with blacks and Latinos being "blamed" for Prop 8 passing despite their being a lower percentage of the electorate, there have been instances of GWM activists showing their ugly sides. Not surprised.
http://www.stereohyped.com/la-prop-8- ... acks-20081110/#more-17729
Posted on: 2008/11/26 20:03
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Just can't stay away
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Interesting break down. Those who voted for Prop 8
84% of weekly churchgoers ? (32% of electorate); 82% of Republicans ? (29% of electorate); 81% of white evangelicals ? (17% of electorate); 70% of African Americans ? (10% of electorate); 65% of all Protestants - (43% of electorate); 65% of white Protestants ? (29% of electorate); 64% of voters w/children in household ? (40% of electorate); 64% of Catholics ? (30% of electorate); 61% of age 65 and over ? (15% of electorate); 60% of married people ? (62% of electorate); 59% of suburban dwellers ? (51% of electorate); 58% of non-college graduates ? (50% of electorate); 53% of Latinos ? (18% of electorate); 51% of white men ? (31% of electorate).
Posted on: 2008/11/26 18:55
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Just can't stay away
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So 6,775,560 of voters in California are "Bible-thumping rednecks other speciec of conservative christians." Because Obama won by millions of votes. "Rednecks" don't vote democrat. I am not taking a stand on this either way, but this vote clearly shows that it is not just Republicans that are against gay marriage.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 18:47
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Home away from home
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Some people protest too much.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 17:15
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Apparently there's a lot of Bible thumping rednecks in California - well at least 51%-worth!! (I always wondered why California was nick-named the "Golden State")
jillianp - if you (or Ms. Mitchell) don't need the piece of paper, then why is this an issue? Oh, I guess you just want to impose (or ram down our throats) your values. Typical bleeding-heart liberal people here - it's YOUR way or it's wrong.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 17:05
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+1. Funny too that this is coming from a guy who has been "stomping his feet" since Obama won. Can't wait to hear his bitching when the "majority" wants to outlaw guns.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 16:50
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Re: Same sex marriage in NJ
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Boy, you got that backwards. It's only a "moral" issue for Bible-thumping rednecks other species of conservative "Christians." It is a civil rights issue and your take on referenda (in addition to being a classic case of argumentum ad populum) displays a serious misunderstanding of one of the primary reasons this country's founders rejected direct democracy in favor of a representative republic: the tyranny of the majority over the weak minority. Read Mill, you angry little man.
Posted on: 2008/11/26 16:42
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