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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
 
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1. Dual citizenship simply complicates your life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_citizenship 2. With US citizenship, yes, you get flown home from countries that have a good relationship with the US. That list of countries is becoming increasingly smaller. US passport holders are probably the most hated global travellers given recent events. 3. Jury duty notices seem to be sent to everyone that pays taxes - for some reason the US government have a hard time figuring out who is and isnt a citizen. The fallacy isnt whether a non-citizen can serve, the fallacy is that different branches of US government know what they are doing.
Posted on: 2007/9/27 13:54
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Just can't stay away
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Nungfutz, your post comprises a bunch of falacies.
Green card holders cannot tell jury duty go f... itself. Actually, green card holders cannot take jury duty. So, for the few perverts who would enjoy it, and for all green card holders, there is NO choice. Next: dual citizenship is de facto tolerated by the United States. People who get US citizenship and choose to keep their previous one too are not subject to any penalty. Moreover, from our side, the propaganda has it that it that it is better to have a US citizenship than anything else. It's been years since the BBC started preaching about the Thailand problem - thousands of Brits are in jail there, with no fair defense, with no chance of doing their time at home, while most Americans are sent home where they are punished less severe. (Thailand laws are extremely tough.) Also, I remember a string of DWI killings of East Europeans, from Poland to Bulgaria, by regular Americans. As soon as it happens, the Americans are flown home, where they are judged without witnesses (most East Europeans cannot afford to travel here, because it is expensive and visa are issued in a billion years) and acquitted. Do you think any country in the world would be able to save me from here, the same way? Other than that, my main worry which would prevent me from getting the citizenship is a possible reintroduction of the draft. That is scary. Yesterday at the UN, even Mugabe had a point
Posted on: 2007/9/27 12:23
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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The 2 biggest disincentives for people with Green Cards vs full citizenship are:
1. Forced Jury service. Green Card holders can tell the jury service demands to go F itself. 2. Abandonment of dual citizenship - why drop protections from another state for the limited and usually lesser citizen protections offered by the US? Sooo... green card holders get the right to sit on juries and abandon protections from another state so they can vote for the machine or anti-machine? Duh!
Posted on: 2007/9/27 6:05
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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Marketing is one thing, purchasing is another. A presidential candidate spent $600m to get 60m votes, thats $10 per, mostly used for television ads. Campos paid $70 per "worker" in his ward, out of a total contributed war chest of $113k. That's $140 per vote, 14 times what the presidential race cost. It would probably be quite a netsurfing project to see if any elections anywhere can top that.
Posted on: 2007/9/27 1:49
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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It's not necessarily a Hudson County thing.
Four billion dollars were spent in the 2004 presidential and congressional elections. (An estimated $1.2 billion were reportedly spent between Kerry and Bush alone.) Four Billion Dollars That's marketing, baby.
Posted on: 2007/9/27 0:21
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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I DO think that makes a difference! While it may be more efficient to simply pay the voters rather than spend the same on advertising to convince them to vote for you, it seems to me it undercuts what little we have left of democracy.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 22:36
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Well actually, Corzine spent around $40 per vote, and Boomberg spent twice that, thought that didn't actually go directly to the voters.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 22:30
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Your explanation might seem reasonable if he hadn't paid 1 person for every 2 that voted for him. I'd bet the Corzine campaign didn't pay 1 out of 100.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 22:13
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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No, its not usually about corruption, its mostly about hiring College students to go knock on people's door on election day, or in more rural areas, make phone calls. Most of the time you are talking about small armies of college students, or in some cases, high school students, descending on neighborhoods starting in the late afternoon and ending just before the polls close, which is why when you come home on election day there is often a sign or piece of literature stuck under the door reminding you its election day. My guess is many of the college students don't even bother voting, and many of the high school students are underage, so its mostly not about buying votes. Labor unions will also send members going door to door, and as I said, in urban areas you'll have adults who think $50 or $70 is a lot of money, and so they'll sign up to do it. In this case, like I said previously, it at the very least seems scandalous because they all reside in the ward. But at the same time, a simple explanation could be that these people were working the entire city of Hoboken, not just the ward, on his campaign was footing the bill because he had the money in his account.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 18:16
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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Street money is one thing, but the ratio of "workers" to cast votes in the 4th ward has got to be pretty unusual.
Does a $1 lottery ticket really compare to a $70 payout? Even in the project $1 doesn't go too far.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 17:56
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Just can't stay away
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Is the fact that Corzine paid $135 a day for "campaign workers' cited as proof that the whole system is rotten, or that when Corzine does it, its not buying votes. Street money is a staple of Democratic campaigns around the country and is nothing new. Those with long memories may recall the brouhaha that ensued when an enebriated Whitman campain manager (Rollins? or something) bragged about street money to black ministers in Camden. The hypocritical outrage from the Democrats was deafening. (As a coda, there was an investigation that revealed the boast was braggadacio and not true). But why is everyone beating up on Justiciero?
Posted on: 2007/9/26 17:41
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Home away from home
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This is a Ward Map compiled by Hoboken 411; Ward 4 is the southwest corner, include the largest portion of Hoboken's low income housing:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF ... 000111d75bbe8d8ca68&msa=0 I took a look at the ELEC report from 5/23/07 Schedule D, (to view reports, check them out here http://www.elec.state.nj.us/ElecWeb/StandardSearch.aspx but be warned it only works with I.Explorer) Most of the election day workers appear to have addresses in Ward 4, specifically, the projects. This obviously gives the perception that these votes were "bought." On the other hand, get out the vote efforts usually include hiring election day workers at $50 to $70 a head. (Corzine's Senate campaign paid the most at between $100 and $135 a head.) Election day workers do a number of less than exciting things like holding up signs at roadway intersections, telephone voters who have not voted, and walking door to door getting people to vote. There are basically three types of people who are willing to do degrading and labor intensive work for 4 or 5 hours for $50. High School kids, college kids, and poor people. That alone of course does not explain the more than 300 election day workers where a total of 1600 or so votes were cast. However, its possible that some of these election day workers were electioneering in other wards of Hoboken, which would explain the large numbers. On the other hand, its politics in Hudson County, so the possibility its not all on the up and up is always there.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 13:33
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Quite a regular
 
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hehehe...I said I was a pollyanna! I do believe that we can make changes. Gina
Posted on: 2007/9/26 13:27
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Just can't stay away
Joined:
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Justiceiro's theories were also about how people who would go for citizenship came here for freedom. If Gina's take is correct (world is perfectible and you only need to do something), than most of those guys should do something in their own countries. :)
Anyway back to the Hoboken topic, what kind of ward is that? more like West Side or like Downtown?
Posted on: 2007/9/26 12:57
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Campos also organized a free bus trip to Atlantic City for Hudson county seniors, and Zimmer handed out lottery tickets with campaign fliers.
http://politicsnj.com/something-rare- ... local-race-november-11975
Posted on: 2007/9/26 12:53
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Quite a regular
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People can sit around and dispair that there will be no change or they can get up and try to do something about it. Get involved where you can and try to push out the bad...gee I sound very Pollyanna this morning, but, really we do need to be involved.
Gina
Posted on: 2007/9/26 12:28
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Re: How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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Just can't stay away
Joined:
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I wonder how Justiceiro can still see the voting right as an incentive for getting citizenship.
In all truth, they probably took the money. but did not vote for the bad guy. So probably he was too cheap, and 70 dollars is how much a vote does NOT cost.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 12:24
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How to (attempt to) buy an election, Hudson county style @ $70 a vote
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I've been following the drama of the contested 4th ward election in Hoboken because Dawn Zimmer is a friend. An amazing fact was posted by Dawn on the Hoboken411.com site.
http://hoboken411.com/?p=6255&cp=90#comments In an election that Campos lost to Zimmer 863 to 870, he had hired 380 "campaign workers" in the ward at $70 a pop. That is to say, he bought nearly half his votes outright! Boy, you think you're jaded and can't have a lower opinion of the process, and there it is. It's amazing he lost if you add that 380 to the graveyard vote and the voter impersonators that have been reported around here. No wonder people despair of real change in JC.
Posted on: 2007/9/26 3:57
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