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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Quote:

Xerxes wrote:

And a JC single family single family almost anywhere but Greenville taxed at $4500 strikes me as pretty reasonable.



I understand, but thought that work was done on the place because the poster mentioned that his taxes were likely to increase. I assumed the poster's concern went beyond the 11.25% "not a tax increase" that Healy and his council recently imposed.

A single family brownstone with a $4,500 tax bill? "Pretty reasonable" is a gross understatement.

Posted on: 2009/7/28 13:43
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Saw the article on NYT on NJ corruption, it was a interesting piece. I guess that just means that we really can't fight it other than pay or leave.

It sounds like the solution is merge the townships and its services and make the cities more efficient. Then again like you said, it is Jersey that we are talking about here.

I know that most of the new multi family in JC are abated for 5 years so it's not only the big developers. Good luck.

Posted on: 2009/7/28 5:07
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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I understand that but fraulein is presenting the case of buying a single family home and thus I cannot see much of an argument she can make to the city for an abatement or a Pilot...unless George Washington slept there...or Henry Hudson.

And a JC single family single family almost anywhere but Greenville taxed at $4500 strikes me as pretty reasonable.

Let us know the outcome if you buy, fraulein.

Posted on: 2009/7/27 23:16
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Not entirely true Xerxes. If the brownstone was recently converted to condos as an example, the city is actually pretty willing to offer an abatement if the new owners request it, usually $25K for 5 years or so.

I know cause it was offered to us. We rejected and went the tax appeal route.

Also, I believe that if the owner of a brownstone does significant improvements to their place, the city may also offer an abatement (amount varies, but starts at 25K for 5 years, I think).

So while it wont be the sweet PILOTS that the large condo developers enjoy (allowing them to pay a percentage of their taxes for many years), unless the owner wants to provide a fat envelop to the right person in a JC diner or parking lot, from what I understand, when asked, the city routinely offers abatements on properties that have been significantly improved.

Posted on: 2009/7/27 20:54
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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It is HIGHLY unlikely that any brownstone will get a tax abatement. It is only NEW construction mostly near the waterfront that is getting abatements. Grossly unfair and probably illegal but that's the way it is in Jersey City.


(Does anyone know if Society Hill has abated taxes?American Can yes! What about the Beacon?)

Posted on: 2009/7/27 20:35
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Pardon my beginner JC property tax/abatement question.

We are looking at purchasing a single family home in JC. The owner is in the process of figuring out the tax situation and what makes the most sense (taxes are $4500 currently but will go up) and is considering a tax abatement. From everything I'm reading, it seems like this is something that only big developers get as incentive to build large condo developments vs. someone who owns a brownstone. Is that true or would this single family owner actually be able to secure an abatement?

Posted on: 2009/7/26 22:23
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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WOW, wasn't this all very timely!

Posted on: 2009/7/24 19:00
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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So I guess with the FBI arrests of several mayors, several Jersey City bigwigs, a deputy mayor and the City Council president along with a passle of Rabbis from Deal lauundering Mafia money through Israel show why it's expensive to live in New Jersey.

Perhaps the FBI caught 1% fo the miscreants...Tony Soprano still walks free to drain resources from his many OTHER UNCAUGHT minions!

Remember, it's JOISEY...and that's why you pay a lot for NOTHING!

Posted on: 2009/7/23 22:13
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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In it's simplest form:
NJ has long been mob run and the larger the political infrastructure, the easier to exert control and extract resources.
This kind of mafia/government cabal is expensive, inefficients and makes for very rich politicians, mob bosses but rotten schools with administrators making 6 figures, high taxes, poor services.
In short corruption is VERY expensive.


There was a good reason that THE SOPRANOS wasn't set in Indiana.

New Jersey COULD be run better and more cheaply but there are a lot of people to make sure it isn't.


But to return to my first point, one must tally ALL taxes to make a fair comparison between states: personal, sales, excise, real estate, income, estate and inhertiatance taxes. And then one must make sure to compare people in similar circumstances.
It's not easy to make the call just on real estate. Just on that "miniscule" personal property tax down South: If you have $2 Million in your stock portfolio, at 1% that's 20 grand a year tax (I haven;t a clue on what the rates actually are becasue it has been a very long time since I had to pay such a tax.)

Heck, I just looked at a very nice brick 4 bedroom in Pennsy with taxes of $1700/year...but there are no jobs!


On federal costs a couple thoughts. Remember it is EXPENSIVE to fight two wars and maintain capacity to fight and win 3 or 4 more and hold that kind of military footing since 1941. It is doubly hard to keep the books balanced when those with the most wealth refuse to pay for supporting this war machine.
No, it's not the snooks who lost their jobs or are collecting a social security check that won't even cover a month's rent that have created this finacial train wreck.
It's not the Welfare Queens but rather a couple of the Queens in the White House and halls of Congress that did it.

Posted on: 2009/7/20 13:37
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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I think what I'm getting at is that a non-abated property down in the south pays significantly less tax. An example is a friend whose house is accessed on a annual basis, their most recent accessment is around 400k, his tax bill is $4000. Their sales tax is smaller in most cases. Yes, there is that personal property tax on the car or the boat, but even those are minimal. So their population base is smaller, all facets of taxes are less, but they have some of the best school systems in the country, better roads and better almost everything.

Yet for us here in Jersey, even with all these higher property tax revenue, somehow someway, our school system sucks, our road is almost undrivable on certain locations. So why so much money and so little results. I think if people are seeing some results, it won't be as frustrating.

Overall I think US is becoming a overtaxed and overburden economy that have too many people relying on big government bailing them out. This I'm not even just pointing finger at the corporations either, I also mean the people that just sit back and collect social security and unemployment and other government payments.

Posted on: 2009/7/19 5:01
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Yahjcforya,
You make a strong point. New Jersey (at least a couple years ago) raised money primarily from real estate taxes to pay for schools, infrastructire, salaries etc. Other states use income taxes or sales taxes and some use personal property tax.

I am a leftie and I think it is WEALTH that should be taxed. Wealth is often represented by property and thus real estate taxation is somewhat properly progressive. But the most progressive would be a personal property tax like some Southern states have. Yes, you pay annually on your Monet, your jets, your Lamborghini, your stock portfolio, your $10 million bank balance, AND your house.

God awful is a sales tax because it is completely regressive...like Social Security. Then the POOR get to carry the state's financial burden.

But real estate taxation is a good compromise because the rich have more of it and bigger of it .

There's a game you can play: MAKE your money in New Jersey (low income taxes...pre 2008 anyway) and then retire to New York in a lovely home with low Real Estate taxes!

Of course the EASIEST way to avoid high property taxes is to avoid home ownership.

For newcomers, the last revaluation of property was in 1988 and the taxes (City+county+school) were set that year at about 4% of actual valuation! Yep, Jersey City RE taxes are HIGH (unless abated!)

Posted on: 2009/7/18 14:50
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Anyway. We'll give it a try and see. I'll buy it assuming that is going to be the tax that I will pay then it'll be better if it gets lower.

Regardless, how did those older properties end up paying over $8000 for a $250,000 property is beyond me. Down in south, the roads are better, service is better and environment is better, but you paying less than half the tax. Something is really wrong here.

We need to look at other source of revenue instead of relying strictly on property tax. Look at sales tax, income tax, personal property tax. Shift some burden away from property owners and let everyone pay their fair share. I'm not comparing the non-abated and abated properties here. I'm talking about everyone living in Jersey City.

Posted on: 2009/7/17 2:58
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Quote:
from wibbit: sigh you are missing the part the unit was bought for 250k not 600k


No, I'm not because at the time they bought, the going taxes on a $250,000 evaluation was close to $8,000 or more ($10,000?) or double the PILOT of $4000. As their property doubled in value (and then a little) so then were the taxes on real estate adjusted downwards in relationship to the market keeping that same 50% Pilot discount in place. Don't think of that $250,000 in TODAY'S Real Estate dollars. At every single point in the progression from $250,000 to $600,000 they paid the same HALF taxes.
Just another way of saying, if all real estate doubles in price taxes on that realestate DO NOT double becasue there is a discounted multiplier attached to the market value. Jersey City does NOT get twice as much in taxes becasue property prices havee doubled.
Yet another way: a $250,000 Jersey city condo in 1990 is identical to a $600,000 JC condo today and the taxes are very similar.

When my friends lose their abatement their taxes will go back up to that same old $8000 or more ($10,000?) from 1990.

Posted on: 2009/7/16 14:05
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Anyway, the initial two Newport buildings, TJ and JM were awarded 30-year terms, expiring in 2018, in part because of the affordable housing units included in those properties!


Just one teeny correction...the first occupied buildings were the JA and the GW. All 4 were the first Newport "wave" called Presidential Plaza, all 4 are abated and all four have a smattering of affordable apartment. Some confusion might arise becasue we have two JM's, the James Madison rental completed in 1998 and the James Monroe CONDO completed 3 years later.

Probably the effect on market rate apartment rents will be negligible except on the level of service because for 95% of its apartments, Newport has been charging what the market will bear and not a penny less from the day the first tenants moved in. That won't change.

If I know Lefrak, they'll buy an extension somehow.

(covetalker, is there any possibility that you are a nun? Just a stab in the dark becasue you sound like someone I talked to years ago! Ignore this if its too personal. I like your DALI! )

Posted on: 2009/7/16 13:27
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Xerxes --

My bad. I forgot to answer one of your specific questions.

The PILOT contracts for both the Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe buildings run 1988-2018. Identical in duration, timeframe, and terms.

Too bad the Tax Assessor's office at City Hall was less-than-responsive. Hope this helps.

Posted on: 2009/7/16 13:20
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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When the issue of waterfront PILOTs flared a few years ago, right after Healy was first elected on a platform of "no more waterfront abatements," spent some time at City Hall, requesitioning ordinances and such. (The newly-elected mayor had reversed himself, supporting a PILOT for the "A" building on Washington Blvd., since "it wasn't on the water." By a block.) Anyway, the initial two Newport buildings, TJ and JM were awarded 30-year terms, expiring in 2018, in part because of the affordable housing units included in those properties. Since then, all other waterfront development, from Newport to Paulus Hook, east of Marin Blvd., has received PILOTs, but none have on-site affordable- or fair-housing components. 100% market-rate, with discounted property taxes. It will be sobering to see what unfolds, when all these buildings approach the end of their abatement calendars, and fall like dominoes.

Posted on: 2009/7/16 13:15
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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covetalker,


Thank you for that information. You have NO idea how many people in these buildings have NO idea of those facts. It's as if that contract and date had been buried somewhere under a Mayan pyramid and forgotten and all the signees buried with it (and the Lefraks aren't talking.) I've heard guesstimates of 20 years, 25 years, 30 years and 40 years.

I had been thinking purely in terms of the effect on the condos but of course the ramifications are also there for the rentals, the two you mentioned as well as the John Adams and the George Washington. Another wrinkle is the fate of the "affordable" apartments at Newport! There will be a LOT of moving vans.


How did you come by that information because the Jersey City tax department plays completely dumb on the issue?

Another wrinkle,
The occupancy for the 4 first rental towers began at the very end of 1987...I guess they count it as 1988, hence a 30 year abatement til 2018, but it was at least full two years later that the James Monroe condo started occupancy. You'd think the abatement expiration would be two years later too?


Anyway, thanks again. I am very grateful.

Posted on: 2009/7/16 12:59
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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For Xerxes' colleague at the James Monroe, s/he might breathe easier knowing that the building's PILOT runs until 2018. [As Yvonne likes to underscore, these are contracts. For JM and Thomas Jefferson, those contracts expire in 2018.] Which means, all those units will benefit from discounted real estate taxes for another 9 years. After that, though, the owners may collectively wish to run like hell.

Posted on: 2009/7/14 15:56
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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sigh you are missing the part the unit was bought for 250k not 600k

Posted on: 2009/7/14 15:13
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Quote:
actual abatement is in most cases cheaper next year


I have heard that over and over again but I have YET to hear a single example of someone who gave up his abatement and thus paid lower taxes the next year...only that kind of vague generalization.

IF taxes without abatement are lower, then every developer would not beg for them, nor would they tout the abatement as a huge incentive when they peddle their product...but the DO beg and peddle and I have yet to meet an altrusitic developer, nor one who wasn't VERY concerned with every penny in his bottom line.


Seeking abatements to pay MORE taxes next year and the year after that flies in the face of common sense.

I'll give an example: taxes in the James Monroe on the largest apartments, convertible 3's, 2 baths, terrace...1377 adveertised square feet ,not the penthouse duplexes...sold 20 years ago for $250K...selling now for $600k. Abated pilots: a little over $4000 per year. THe owners are SWEATING over the eventual end of the abatement when they would see an approximate doubling of their taxes.

Posted on: 2009/7/14 11:39
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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actual abatement is in most cases cheaper next year, but like wibbit said, it's how much it would be after that's in question. I wouldn't want to risk touching the 20 year safety net and throw myself into the wolves at the city hall.

Posted on: 2009/7/14 0:53
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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i dont have the exact numbers but i am sure the actual property tax without abatement is lower NEXT YEAR given the difference in purchase price, but as i said i will not remove the abatement, it's just too risky.

Posted on: 2009/7/13 18:28
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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I hate to be repetitive, but Wibbit did you find out IF your taxes would decrease if you left the abatement program?
What's the point of guessing about Hoboken or thinking 15 years ahead, and IGNORING the Present Value of money...15 years from now a dollar might buy a stick of gum!

I am sick of listening to JCLAW's pronouncements about how much abatements are costing "altruistic" developers in their efforts to support Jersey City by [paying extra taxes. I suspect he is lying...no politics involved, I just think he is jabbering nonsense!

What I want is ONE owner to say "I declined my abatement and saved X dollars" and then cough up the numbers.

So wibbit, if you declined your abatement what would happen to your taxes NEXT year?

Posted on: 2009/7/13 0:41
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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i think it will, but given what happened to hoboken and the general budget issues facing jc/nj, i dont want to take that gamble. Once removed you can never get it back.

Posted on: 2009/7/12 16:14
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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wibbit,

What would happen to your costs NEXT YEAR if you removed the abatement? I presume you have explored that option?

According to JCLaw, your costs would plummet.

Posted on: 2009/7/12 14:26
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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I mean if we aren\'t able to have them keep the abatement but lower the tax base, then being successful in the appeal would not be economical.

In my case, the difference is pretty significant as the original base and current base would be $3000 annually. But in 15 years, that tax could go up tremendously more than the current amount.

Posted on: 2009/7/12 3:26
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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what do you mean by fluctuation? i think yours might be a different situation.

Anyway no luck. The 2 re attorneys I spoke with both werent sure, appears they never done this before. The assessor office(one in the grove city hall building) doesnt have a clue.

Removing the abatement is not an option given the state of nj, it's almost a guarantee tax will go higher in the next 15 yrs.

So i just gave up trying to save about $150 a month. Anyone (individuals) who are actually able to get their abatement lowered in the past?

Posted on: 2009/7/11 20:29
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Wibbit,

So what was the conclusion from your discussion with the attorney. I would be interested in the name of this particular attorney also as I could be dealing with a similar scenerio here. I want to keep the abatement but don't want the fluctuation. Thanks.

Posted on: 2009/7/11 17:45
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Quote:

JCLAW wrote:
Wibbit:

Try to ignore the political back and forth from the prior posters.

The fact that PILOTs have become an pointlessly political issue rather than a simple accounting matter should not prevent you from hiring a local Certiorari lawyer who will cause the tax department to lower your PILOT payment in accordance with the terms of the agreement or, at your discretion, simply cancel the whole thing all together and lower the payments even further.

I promise you, as someone who really knows these things inside out, you will have no problem accomplishing this.


JCLAW, do you have any contact who are familiar with this process? i spoke to my real estate attorney, although she was very good at my previous closings i got the feeling she really doesnt have any experience dealing with this particular issue.

I probably will not cancel the abatement as it's a guarentee against property tax changes for the next 18 years. But try to get the abatement lowered to my purchase price.

thanks

ps super_furry, i was going by my acutal experience in the past for jc downtown instead of some textbox rule you googled. And why do you feel the need to take a jab at me in an unrelated thread instead of just replying to the original thread for that topic?

Posted on: 2009/7/4 3:07
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Re: anyone petitioned for tax abatement change in the past?
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Quote:

JCLAW wrote:
Wibbit:

Try to ignore the political back and forth from the prior posters.

The fact that PILOTs have become an pointlessly political issue rather than a simple accounting matter should not prevent you from hiring a local Certiorari lawyer who will cause the tax department to lower your PILOT payment in accordance with the terms of the agreement or, at your discretion, simply cancel the whole thing all together and lower the payments even further.

I promise you, as someone who really knows these things inside out, you will have no problem accomplishing this.


I hope that JCLAW's advice is better than the crap advice that Wibbit gave recently about how to go about breaking a lease.

Posted on: 2009/7/3 18:29
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