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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Pebble, your total family income-not just your individual earned income from working in NY-is the basis for your NYS taxes. Generally, this is 'washed' against your NJ income taxes. So not only does NY take your tax money, NJ loses out.

On top of that, you're paying into a system in NYS that you don't totally use-you're not having your children educated, you partake much less in services that full time NYS residents, etc etc.

So a new tunnel will help NY just as much as NJ. And the Feds continue to talk about NYC being the region's 'core', so they should also equally share any cost overruns with the other stakeholders.

Booker and Menendez made a nice overture to Washington for some pork to be thrown at the HBLR-they should also be all over Obama about the Feds paying their (how I love using the phrase back at them) 'fair share'. Which in this case means ALL the costs are shared equally-after all, it's shovel ready!

Posted on: 2015/3/20 17:11
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
Pebble, not only does any NJ resident who works in NY pay NYS income tax, but they pay the percentage based on their total family income, including any income earned by, say, a spouse who doesn't work in NY. That's one reason why real estate taxes in NYC are so low.

My office is in NY. I pay both taxes and just had the "luxury" of seeing my accountant yesterday. I do not believe that spousal taxes travel over to NY, but it isn't something I've discussed so you could be right on that.

As for real estate taxes... they are low because they have businesses footing the bill with corporate taxes. It has nothing to do with workers in NY living in NJ, though I'm sure those pennies do count for something.

Where would the state of New York prefer that I live? My contention is that they would prefer I didn't live in NJ since it would make them more money as a whole.

If I lived in NY, this would drive home values north (supply/demand) which, in turn, drives the property taxes higher. If I lived in NY, I would eat in more NY restaurants thereby driving more NY business. More people eating in restaurants means more restaurants opening up.

My taxes would entirely go to the state of NY instead of getting credits and having the state taxes split. Living in NY, I would be paying New York transit, their buses and subways, etc.

Essentially, the money I made in NY would be cycled through to the rest of NY instead of, say, NuBar or Roman Nose.

As a means of driving more people into NY, the easiest way to do that would be to make it harder for people in NJ to travel there. This is why Cuomo LOVES the Port Authority hikes on the PATH, tunnels and bridges. You'll notice the toll for the Tappan Zee didn't really go up.

It is that very reason that you see the PA go through vanity projects that benefit NY instead of actually increasing the volume capable of transiting from NJ.

NYC definitely benefits from a larger talent base to pull from. However, the big jobs are not going to leave NY for NJ in the hopes of gaining one employee when the other 5 already are in NY.

If we had a governor that cared about its residents, he would understand this. He might instill someone at the Port Authority willing to assist the residents of New Jersey with this plight instead of allowing New York to just gobble the money into Manhattan projects. Heck, even the extension of the PATH to EWR is designed to benefit New Yorkers! They could jump on in NY, pay the PA (which means splitting the money between the states) and avoid paying NJ Transit (which would benefit NJ).

Posted on: 2015/3/20 16:30
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Pebble, not only does any NJ resident who works in NY pay NYS income tax, but they pay the percentage based on their total family income, including any income earned by, say, a spouse who doesn't work in NY. That's one reason why real estate taxes in NYC are so low.

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Monroe wrote:
I'm fully behind this project if all the stakeholders would share the pain, equally, of the inevitable cost overruns. Having the citizens of NJ be solely responsible for them is a sucker deal with no limit to the downside.

I guess we differ on that.

And I like Sweeney's idea of selling some Port Authority assets to help fund the new tunnel.

Well, i think that's where we differ. I simply don't see the benefit that NY has in this. Employees that live in NJ don't pay full NY tax. They don't pay property tax nor drive property value up. You can talk about schools but as has been borne from all studies, those with more means have less children. (Connecting more money to higher home values is a simple connection.)

As for Sweeney's idea... I hadn't read/seen it. However, if it is coming from him, I don't trust it since he's a proven liar and scumbag.

Posted on: 2015/3/20 14:47
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
I'm fully behind this project if all the stakeholders would share the pain, equally, of the inevitable cost overruns. Having the citizens of NJ be solely responsible for them is a sucker deal with no limit to the downside.

I guess we differ on that.

And I like Sweeney's idea of selling some Port Authority assets to help fund the new tunnel.

Well, i think that's where we differ. I simply don't see the benefit that NY has in this. Employees that live in NJ don't pay full NY tax. They don't pay property tax nor drive property value up. You can talk about schools but as has been borne from all studies, those with more means have less children. (Connecting more money to higher home values is a simple connection.)

As for Sweeney's idea... I hadn't read/seen it. However, if it is coming from him, I don't trust it since he's a proven liar and scumbag.

Posted on: 2015/3/20 12:56
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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I'm fully behind this project if all the stakeholders would share the pain, equally, of the inevitable cost overruns. Having the citizens of NJ be solely responsible for them is a sucker deal with no limit to the downside.

I guess we differ on that.

And I like Sweeney's idea of selling some Port Authority assets to help fund the new tunnel.

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Monroe wrote:
The Seattle tunneling will be resumed (if everything goes right, in August), with the project now costing over 50% more than first projected. Yup, that's what we'd be looking at if NJ was the sole owner of cost overruns in the Tunnel to Macy's Basement.

http://news.yahoo.com/crews-ready-hoi ... hine-under-203843342.html

Well, I guess that's it then. We should never build anything again. It's just too expensive to ever do anything and we should all stay indoors and never go anywhere.

No point in improving anything to benefit the residents of NJ because NY won't kick in. Nevermind that NY benefits from having the commute from NJ become more painful for its residents. Nope, we should expect NY to go against its own best interest and chip in money as well.

Posted on: 2015/3/20 11:23
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
The Seattle tunneling will be resumed (if everything goes right, in August), with the project now costing over 50% more than first projected. Yup, that's what we'd be looking at if NJ was the sole owner of cost overruns in the Tunnel to Macy's Basement.

http://news.yahoo.com/crews-ready-hoi ... hine-under-203843342.html

Well, I guess that's it then. We should never build anything again. It's just too expensive to ever do anything and we should all stay indoors and never go anywhere.

No point in improving anything to benefit the residents of NJ because NY won't kick in. Nevermind that NY benefits from having the commute from NJ become more painful for its residents. Nope, we should expect NY to go against its own best interest and chip in money as well.

Posted on: 2015/3/18 14:58
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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The Seattle tunneling will be resumed (if everything goes right, in August), with the project now costing over 50% more than first projected. Yup, that's what we'd be looking at if NJ was the sole owner of cost overruns in the Tunnel to Macy's Basement.

http://news.yahoo.com/crews-ready-hoi ... hine-under-203843342.html

Posted on: 2015/3/18 14:18
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guess what, nj transit was going to use this tunnel- not the mta?

Posted on: 2014/10/2 16:06
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ianmac47 wrote:
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Of course ianmac47 wants NJ to pay for the bi-state transportation projects-he lives in Brooklyn, lol.


But consider what I have said in this thread, which can be summarized by: without the ARC tunnel, high educated, high income earners will leave the state of New Jersey.



You're entitled to your opinion, of course, no matter how unlikely it is.

Amtrak, the trainworker unions, and the construction unions should go cap in hand to Obama and demand money to fix the problems to the 'core', as they say.

But as a Brooklynite you do want to keep your taxes artificially down and screw NJ taxpayers to fund this-you almost sound like a 1% Republican-'I don't wanna pay my fair share!'

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:24
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
Of course ianmac47 wants NJ to pay for the bi-state transportation projects-he lives in Brooklyn, lol.


But consider what I have said in this thread, which can be summarized by: without the ARC tunnel, high educated, high income earners will leave the state of New Jersey.


Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:14
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Of course ianmac47 wants NJ to pay for the bi-state transportation projects-he lives in Brooklyn, lol.

Posted on: 2014/10/2 15:07
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Monroe wrote:

I do. NJ taxpayers and our children would be paying for this LONG TERM while NY residents laugh at our stupidity while enjoying lower taxes at our expense.

Replacing every NJ transit train with double deckers will help capacity, it's increased payload for the lines that can accommodate them. And let's not forget that 10 years from now many more people will be telecommuting.


Have fun with that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/nyr ... it-rail-service.html?_r=0


I've said all along we need new tunnels. What I've also said that everyone is a stakeholder and that all the stakeholders need to participate equally in the inevitable cost overruns. Maybe the NYTimes will push NY to pay the 'fair share' that the Democrats so often like to talk about.

And with Amtrak being responsible for the repairs it looks like a win for NJ-let's let Amtrak take the lead in building any new tunnels rather than having NJ taxpayers paying the bulk, as the 'tunnel to Macy's basement' plan would have. Bravo to our Governor for protecting our wallets!

Posted on: 2014/10/2 14:59
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Monroe wrote:

I do. NJ taxpayers and our children would be paying for this LONG TERM while NY residents laugh at our stupidity while enjoying lower taxes at our expense.

Replacing every NJ transit train with double deckers will help capacity, it's increased payload for the lines that can accommodate them. And let's not forget that 10 years from now many more people will be telecommuting.


Have fun with that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/nyr ... it-rail-service.html?_r=0

Posted on: 2014/10/2 14:47
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hero69 wrote:
the tunnel may be dead but what state loses more after all its njtransit that runs trains through it, not the mta.

monroe, you need to think LONG TERM


I do. NJ taxpayers and our children would be paying for this LONG TERM while NY residents laugh at our stupidity while enjoying lower taxes at our expense.

Replacing every NJ transit train with double deckers will help capacity, it's increased payload for the lines that can accommodate them. And let's not forget that 10 years from now many more people will be telecommuting.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 18:00
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the tunnel may be dead but what state loses more after all its njtransit that runs trains through it, not the mta.

monroe, you need to think LONG TERM

Posted on: 2014/9/25 17:20
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nj needs to realize that ny doesn't really give a crap about nj; same thing goes for ct. nj needs to put up and shut up if its wants to take advantage of its proximity to ny. sure, ny suffers from nj having inadequate infrastructure and transportation links but that just bolsters the argument for going to queens or westchester or further east in long island.



A tunnel with one hole at one end in NJ and another hole in NY isn't a NJ infrastructure problem, any more than GW and Goethal, and Bayonne Bridge are NJ infrastructure problems.

Of course, NY was looking to the Port Authority to help with the new Tappan Zee Bridge, tying us to their own infrastructure problems, no?

In any case, the Tunnel to Macy's Basement is dead, and I don't think Sweeney or Fulop will revisit it once they go over the financials either.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 16:56
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nj needs to realize that ny doesn't really give a crap about nj; same thing goes for ct. nj needs to put up and shut up if its wants to take advantage of its proximity to ny. sure, ny suffers from nj having inadequate infrastructure and transportation links but that just bolsters the argument for going to queens or westchester or further east in long island.


Posted on: 2014/9/25 16:52
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Monroe wrote:
Again, there was no offer from the Feds as far as additional money (please quote me an amount, or percentage) as a grant. Low interest loans are still NJ taxpayer obligations, without a concurrent shared obligation from any other stakeholder.

And anyone who doesn't think that the costs would not be more is stupid, partisan, or both.

I'm all for restarting the process-with a logical terminus where it would actually help rail connectivity with Grand Central, with shared pain as far as the inevitable cost overruns, and greater seed money from the Feds that our Senators have historically been unable to deliver to regional taxpayers-it's green, people claim it's the Region Core and critical, and it's shovel ready to start. Obama should be all over it.


The project is no longer shovel ready. The project would need to be redesigned as the Hudson Yards development has since rendered the previous plan impossible to execute as is.



I'm just using Obama's definition.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 16:23
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Monroe wrote:
Again, there was no offer from the Feds as far as additional money (please quote me an amount, or percentage) as a grant. Low interest loans are still NJ taxpayer obligations, without a concurrent shared obligation from any other stakeholder.

And anyone who doesn't think that the costs would not be more is stupid, partisan, or both.

I'm all for restarting the process-with a logical terminus where it would actually help rail connectivity with Grand Central, with shared pain as far as the inevitable cost overruns, and greater seed money from the Feds that our Senators have historically been unable to deliver to regional taxpayers-it's green, people claim it's the Region Core and critical, and it's shovel ready to start. Obama should be all over it.


The project is no longer shovel ready. The project would need to be redesigned as the Hudson Yards development has since rendered the previous plan impossible to execute as is.


Posted on: 2014/9/25 16:03
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Again, there was no offer from the Feds as far as additional money (please quote me an amount, or percentage) as a grant. Low interest loans are still NJ taxpayer obligations, without a concurrent shared obligation from any other stakeholder.

And anyone who doesn't think that the costs would not be more is stupid, partisan, or both.

I'm all for restarting the process-with a logical terminus where it would actually help rail connectivity with Grand Central, with shared pain as far as the inevitable cost overruns, and greater seed money from the Feds that our Senators have historically been unable to deliver to regional taxpayers-it's green, people claim it's the Region Core and critical, and it's shovel ready to start. Obama should be all over it.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 15:47
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
It was all on NJ, which is why it was killed.


There?s no point in continuing to debate your interpretation of the ARC project budget, but if you believe fiscal prudence was the driving factor in the Governor?s decision to scrap a critical infrastructure project that went through many stages of planning over the course of fifteen years?in the span of a mere four weeks?you have already proven yourself too easily manipulated by political gamesmanship to have an opinion that carries any weight.

Suppose the decision was yours, and what you believe about the budget was indeed true?would you be able to judge with absolute certainty, the pros and cons of an extremely large scale project in less time than it would take you to study, comprehend, and discuss all the issues and factors in play? Don?t bother answering, because the answer is, ?no.? Nobody with other responsibilities at hand could do that in only a month, and that's where politics and manipulation of public opinion comes in.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 15:47
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:

Absolutely, for all practical purposes there is no limit (see the Big Dig in Boston) on cost overruns in large projects, which is why there needs to be a prior agreement on how the obligation is shared among the stakeholders.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/nyr ... -2010.html?pagewanted=all

Here's the fun parts:

"In announcing his decision, Mr. Christie said he was relying on the advice of his ARC steering committee, led by New Jersey Transit officials, which he said had revised estimates and found that the tunnel would ?cost no less than $11 billion and could exceed $14 billion.?

The report, however, found that the estimates had not changed since August 2008, 17 months before Mr. Christie took office. New Jersey Transit and federal officials had agreed on a baseline cost of $8.7 billion, which was the figure cited in news reports, but they had also agreed, first in 2008 and then a month before Mr. Christie canceled the project, that costs would range from $9.5 billion to $12.4 billion. When federal officials argued, six weeks before Mr. Christie canceled the project, that it might cost $13.7 billion, the report said, state officials replied that they ?did not see costs rising to this level? and said the project would cost, at most, $10 billion. "

and

" Mr. Christie further explained his decision by saying that the financing agreement with the federal government required him to declare that New Jersey would pay any costs above the $8.7 billion. That is the standard procedure for full-financing agreements, but the report found that there was no agreement when Mr. Christie canceled the project, and that the federal government, which was already paying 51 percent of the costs, had offered to help with any cost overruns, pledging additional money, low-interest railroad loans and public-private financing.

Before Mr. Christie declared the tunnel dead, his transportation advisers told state legislators that they had discussed taking money from the project to fill the transportation trust fund, which was almost empty. "


Posted on: 2014/9/25 15:09
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
Nonsense, of course. NY depends on NJ commuters, who pay NY state income tax without demands on schools, police and fire protection, spend incredible amounts of money at NYC retail establishments, etc.

And the Port Authority of NY and NJ was not a partner whatsoever in sharing ANY portion of cost overruns. It was all on NJ, which is why it was killed.

And the Democrats love to talk about paying your 'fair share'. In this case only NJ was paying it, which wasn't fair.


I hope you enjoy the next indefinite suspension of the PATH.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 14:38
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Nonsense, of course. NY depends on NJ commuters, who pay NY state income tax without demands on schools, police and fire protection, spend incredible amounts of money at NYC retail establishments, etc.

And the Port Authority of NY and NJ was not a partner whatsoever in sharing ANY portion of cost overruns. It was all on NJ, which is why it was killed.

And the Democrats love to talk about paying your 'fair share'. In this case only NJ was paying it, which wasn't fair.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 10:33
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:

Absolutely, for all practical purposes there is no limit (see the Big Dig in Boston) on cost overruns in large projects, which is why there needs to be a prior agreement on how the obligation is shared among the stakeholders.


Again, let me point out how while everyone on the west bank of the Hudson was losing their shit over the indefinite closure of the PATH train, there was no adverse effect in New York. Most people didn't even notice. You can desperately cling to this idea that New York should pay for the overruns or some greater portion than the allocation that came from the Port Authority until all the rail tunnels between the two states shut down and still, even then, nobody in New York City will give a shit.

Posted on: 2014/9/25 2:36
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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fat-ass-bike wrote:
Every and any job that runs for more then 6 months has cost overruns; One has to remember that when quotes were done, they were done months if not years earlier (especially government jobs) thus when materials are eventually ordered, they would be subject to inflation, added manufacturing costs, exchange rates for offshore materials, union wage increases, fuel cost for transport etc etc. You could also have changes to safety codes, building codes or even time of build, could increase costs or create delays (no-one works in rain or snow!)


Absolutely, for all practical purposes there is no limit (see the Big Dig in Boston) on cost overruns in large projects, which is why there needs to be a prior agreement on how the obligation is shared among the stakeholders.

Posted on: 2014/9/24 23:49
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Every and any job that runs for more then 6 months has cost overruns; One has to remember that when quotes were done, they were done months if not years earlier (especially government jobs) thus when materials are eventually ordered, they would be subject to inflation, added manufacturing costs, exchange rates for offshore materials, union wage increases, fuel cost for transport etc etc. You could also have changes to safety codes, building codes or even time of build, could increase costs or create delays (no-one works in rain or snow!)

Posted on: 2014/9/24 23:36
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Monroe wrote:
With mass transit = being good and green, and Obama in NY pushing the UN global warming initiatives, how about the Feds throwing ten billion or so to upgrade mass transit in the strategic region core? Shovel ready jobs and all that.



ARC is not shovel ready anymore. It was. It was funded. Christie cancelled.


It's not funded when there wasn't an agreement as to who would pay the inevitable, multi-billion dollar cost overruns.

But how about a Federally funded, pro-green, regionally critical general upgrade of mass transit? Surely Booker, Menendez, Schumer, and Gillebrand could push Obama for some pork back, no?

Posted on: 2014/9/24 23:23
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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Monroe wrote:
With mass transit = being good and green, and Obama in NY pushing the UN global warming initiatives, how about the Feds throwing ten billion or so to upgrade mass transit in the strategic region core? Shovel ready jobs and all that.



ARC is not shovel ready anymore. It was. It was funded. Christie cancelled.

Posted on: 2014/9/24 23:18
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Re: Seattle tunnel will end up with frightening cost overruns . . .
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With mass transit = being good and green, and Obama in NY pushing the UN global warming initiatives, how about the Feds throwing ten billion or so to upgrade mass transit in the strategic region core? Shovel ready jobs and all that.


Posted on: 2014/9/24 22:39
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