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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Oh man... I was hoping to be the first to perform a gay ceremony in NJ... Well, if anyone knows anyone that wants to get married...
Posted on: 2013/10/18 16:15
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Jersey City due in court to argue for marrying gay couples starting Monday
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal Jersey City is set to appear in Hudson County Superior Court this afternoon in hopes of receiving permission to begin marrying gay couples on Monday. Mayor Steve Fulop is an advocate for same-sex marriage, and already has two couples lined up to perform marriages for on Monday. READ MORE
Posted on: 2013/10/18 15:32
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The Supreme Court has been doing just that for a long time.....
Posted on: 2013/10/15 16:03
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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I never knew you were a Constitutional scholar. Where did you go to law school to have such a firm grasp on First Amendment Law in the U.S.? You clearly have a mastery of the case law.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 15:29
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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God Bless those founding Fathers! If you don't protect religion, then freedom of speech is next. You cannot pick and choose what part of the first amendment is important.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 14:52
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Refusing to provide services to certain people is NOT synonymous with exercising your right to religious freedom. Refusing to provide services to certain people is called DISCRIMINATION.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 14:48
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. According to the first amendment, no law, including same sex marriage, should prohibit me from exercising my religion. I should not be forced to provide services (baker, florist, etc) if it violates the tenants of my religion. It is amazing that the first part of the first amendment talks about protecting religion. Exercise means I have the right when I leave the church doors, I bring it with me 24/7.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 14:20
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Just can't stay away
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Yvonne, I did not call you a right wing extremist. I made that comment in a general sense referring to the efforts made every day by right wing extremists like Michelle Bachmann, Paul Ryan and others to impose their religious beliefs on me, when I don't live in a religiously governed country. You know where religious law is the law of the land? Saudi Arabia. Iran. Lots of other places where women are subjugated and killed by stoning for being raped. But I digress. I reread what I wrote and in no way do I direct that remark at you. If I were going to call you something, I would specifically address you that way, but I don't do that. You don't seem like a right wing extremist to me. You seem naive and unclear about the kind of country this is and the constitutional limitations in place to separate religious practice from law. Nobody is twisting your words that I see here. We are reading your words and responding to them.
YOU are still confused about Roman numerals. Since I took EIGHT YEARS OF LATIN, allow me to assure you that "1" is a numeral meaning "one" that is derived from the Arabic or Hindu-Arabic numbering system. "I" is the capital Arabic letter "i" which we use to designate the Roman numeral "one". TWO in Roman numerals, as in POPE JOHN PAUL THE SECOND, would be "II". The link YOU posted supports what I have just said. If you need help translating anything for church, just let me know. Quote:
Posted on: 2013/10/15 2:28
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+1 to Vigilante. In the court of law, reality ultimately trumps the "religious rights" fantasy cloth. That's what is going on around the country.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 2:10
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Yvonne, you did not read the facts about the Ocean Grove pavilion, can you please read this again? The Ocean Grove pavilion would not have issues if it was fully a place of worship. As it stands, it was trying to get it both ways, getting money from opening to the public while getting freedom to discriminate. Well, you can not do that, that's a violation of the Constitution, the law of the land, you remember the US constitution do you? You bet you can be sued for that.
There are many people who can be not only sued but also fired because of who they were born into. Welcome to the minority. Ultimately you have to decide whether it is worth spending your time discriminating against people or inventing reasons why you might be treated unfairly, as compared to taking the simpler path of considering that people around you whoever they are have the same aspirations in life. Oh I am sure "leaders" in your church will be very keen at pointing the exhibitionists at the gay pride parade to reinforce your high school fantasies all the while ignoring the same behavior at the brazilian parade. By the way, this church is mine too, I was raised by the Jesuits. I just wanted to point out that your closed-door behavior does not seem very christian to me...
Posted on: 2013/10/15 1:55
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Sorry but you cannot vote on whether a person/group is entitled to civil rights. Also Yvonne doesn't seem to understand that religious rights also do not trump civil rights. Imagine if every person could cloak themselves in the "my religious rights" argument? "It wasn't murder, it was a human sacrifice." Sure, refusing to sell a cake may not seem so sinister but ultimately it is discrimination based on a persons race, religion or sexual orientation and therefore runs afoul of basic civil rights. The country is evolving and you can either get onboard or be left behind...
Posted on: 2013/10/15 1:55
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I don't really care about this topic/subject one way or another. As I joke to my friends who bring this up....lets all just go back into our perspective closets. ;)
I will say this....Yvonne has her views and beliefs......but she is not the one acting out of spite, hate or intolerance....rather surprisingly it is coming from those who claim that what they want is peace, tolerance, justice and understanding. Unfortunately politics have made discussing this topic in a fair and responsible manner impossible. We should just let all states put this question to the ballot and let the results be the end of it.
Posted on: 2013/10/15 1:47
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Again, my words are being twisted, here is a classical example from SilveryJessica, you don't like what I say so I am now called a right wing extremist, perhaps bigotry was hard to spell. But I will give you a copy of Roman numerals as you can see 2 uses 11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals
It appears some people here who favors same sex marriage has anger issues on this blog. The reason this lawsuit was filed, same sex supporter was afraid of the public as indicted http://www.nj.com/bergen/index.ssf/20 ... a_to_counter_boycott.html
Posted on: 2013/10/14 23:27
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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No, Yvonne. "1" is an Arabic numeral and "11" is not the Roman numeral expression for two, it is "eleven." Roman numerals use letters, such as "I." I know "1" and "I" look kinda similar, but they're not interchangeable. One's on the left side of the keyboard... the other over toward the right. You appear to be as ignorant about numbers and letters and you've already proven to be about basic civics.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 23:25
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Yvonne, you're 100% wrong. In Roman Numerals, by the way, one hundred is C, so if you prefer, although you're mistakenly continuing to use Arabic numerals for Roman numerals, I'll say C% wrong. Nobody is trying to force you personally or your church as an entity to do anything. What we are trying to do is separate what your church teaches within its walls or within the global community it inhabits from violating the laws of the land. Discrimination is illegal. If you as a professional baker don't want to bake a cake for someone for no other reason than because the couple getting married is same-sex, and you are in violation of a law, you are going to get sued. If a place of public accommodation discriminates, whether it is owned by a tax-exempt nonprofit or religious entity or what have you, it is going to face lawsuits. Your physical church does not have to allow anything it doesn't want to have happen within its walls, and you are C% welcome to worship and believe WHATEVER you want--that is what religious freedom is. You can believe whatever you want. But we don't live in a religiously governed country. We live in a secular country, right-wing extremist activists notwithstanding, who make laws according to the majority of the will of the people. You don't have to like it. I understand if you are morally opposed to it, and I don't have a problem with you working to stop any legislation you find morally objectionable--that is the wonderful thing about living here. We all have the right to promote our views. The difference is that your views are YOUR VIEWS. They are not MY VIEWS. As a Jew or an atheist or a Wiccan, your views are going to be in conflict with mine, and that is why we have a separation--to ensure everyone can be treated equally under the law. It isn't as dire as you seem to think. You can worship any god you want, any way you like. If you want to worship a god that considers hatred and intolerance a better standard than love and equality, more power to you.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 23:10
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Frinjc, I have said and I have never changed my position, the debate over same sex marriage leave open the door to sue people who hold another view. I mentioned the Methodist Church in Ocean Grove, NJ who lost their tax exemption on their pavilion. But there have been other groups and individuals who have been sued when their states instituted same sex union and marriage. I said there should be an exemption based on religion. People here have twisted my words to use their personal agenda. People should not have to choose between their faith and a law.
I remember when John Paul 11, first visited to the USA, he kissed the ground and said, this country protects religion. Well, if I am being sued, because I am a Catholic who is also a baker or florist and tell a customer No, I cannot bake you a cake, then my religious beliefs means nothing. And the words spoken by John Paul 11 are hollow, and I don't mean John Paul the eleven. I am labeled a bigot because I want the First Amendment, which guarantees the separation of Church and State and the right to exercise religion beliefs, to be protected. I never suggested to anyone on this blogs they should adopt my faith but my faith and beliefs should not be attacked. It is also the reason I brought up World Wars 1 and 11, which exempted men from the draft based on religious beliefs.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 22:53
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Yvonne, marriage does not belong to your church. My uncle married at your church, divorced, then remarried at city hall. No certificate of morality was needed. He was and is still legally married. My grand parents were both widowers, they remarried at your church also but they did it privately without state sanction. They knew that they were not legally married, they did this to separate the inheritances for their children. Peace to their souls.
The Ocean Grove pavilion is used as a place of public accommodation, its purpose is not restricted to religious events only. The moment you do that, the moment you have to accommodate everyone, it is the LAW. You can keep your own definition of what marriage is so as to feel better or superior but it won't pass muster here. Next lesson will be on your high school conditioning. Before I do that, don't you think it is ironic that the 4 years old you once were would have had no problem understanding the marriage of say her uncles Jack and Tom?
Posted on: 2013/10/14 22:06
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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You protest too much, I was going to use Roman numerals but I was afraid, you wouldn't understand, so I used Roman numbers, and I am not joking.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 21:48
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Roman numerals are with letters not numbers. I was making light fun over the fact that you improperly used numbers where letters are necessary. I also find it funny that you reference a numbering system made by the Romans... a culture that had gay marriage before Christianity ever existed.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 21:26
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Dos A Cero
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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use the capital "I" not the numeral "1"
Posted on: 2013/10/14 21:19
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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Sadly, you do not understand Roman Numbers, 11 stands for 2 not eleven, our country uses Roman Numbers when referring to the different wars. If you don't understand Roman numbers, I doubt if you understand the complex issue of freedom of speech which gives citizens the right to practice their religion without government interference. Of course you are bigoted against Catholics, it is obvious anyone who goes to you is a lapse, or former Catholic. You are attacking a basic sacrament, there are seven sacraments, one being marriage which according to my religion is between a man and woman. Let me education you, here is another example of World War 11, not eleven. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648813/World-War-II
Posted on: 2013/10/14 21:17
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Re: Gay marriage advocates lobby to override Christie's veto
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I?m hopeful that you?re not as obtuse as you are acting. First, that church didn?t lose their tax exempt status. The church is fine. A property they own and have rented out to non-religious people lost tax exempt status because they discriminated. If they refused service to a couple for being black, the exact same thing would have happened. Your example is a non-factor because isn?t even remotely close to the same scenario. Secondly, if I was bigoted against Catholics, I wouldn?t perform weddings for Catholic couples (multiple occasions). Thirdly, nobody is saying that you cannot continue to spread your bigotry and desire to see people treated unequally. I say you can have at it. I think you should join the Westboro Baptists in their picketing. I?m sure they?ll offer you a free t-shirt and sign. I have not advocated for the Catholic Church to perform gay weddings. I said that I would do them. I would like you to explain to me how you are being punished for your faith. Fourthly, I don?t recall World War Eleven. You?ll have to enlighten me as to which one that was. Fifthly, the reason that religions have a tax exempt status is because they are not supposed to get involved with politics. Thus is the separation. The state allows the pulpit to guide its flock in the way in which they find moral. The state exists to protect the people and pass laws so that all individuals have the opportunity to obtain the same goals. For a church to promote a political position on its signs, one intended to inflame, they have to know what is to come. I do not condone nor endorse any negative actions towards the church (and it seems that nothing happened to them other than a few nasty comments). I take pity on the parishioners of that church. They are clearly misguided individuals. Sixthly, I take very little moral outrage from the Catholic Church seriously. They have spent decades upon decades protecting child predators. There is the old adage of those in glass houses should not throw stones. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Since you referenced Canon Law? http://www.ewtn.com/library/canonlaw/adtucans.htm. It changes. Maybe one day the Catholic Church will change its mind on marriage. Maybe it will change its mind on female priests. Maybe it will change its mind on priests and nuns being allowed to marry. I don?t honestly care. They can go about their business as they see fit and from what I took away from visiting the Vatican is that the Catholic Church really likes money. As such, I suspect they?ll change their mind if they see a decrease in members and finances. The end result is simple: marriage is not now and has never been a religious ceremony. It has always, since the beginning of time, been a vestige of the state. There are religious ceremonies that, for the couples involved, can add special meaning to the marriage more than the simple contract that the state provides. Your desire to impose current Canon Law as New Jersey Law is a violation of the First Amendment.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 20:54
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We live in a mult-cultural and religious society. There are different norms for religion. Even during World Wars 1 and 11, our government made allowances for religion and did not draft men base on religious objections. We know what happened in Ocean Grove, NJ, a Methodist Church was sued, lost their tax exemption, on their pavilion because they would not allow a same sex union. Why should I be forced to believe something I don't? Basically, people are being punished for following their faith, isn't that why the Pilgrims came here, to follow their faith. Pebble, I notice how you use the word 'bigotry' because I don't think the way you think. I could also say you are a bigot because you think I should not adhere to my Catholic faith. Canon law 1050 in the Catholic Church defines marriage between one man and one woman. The bigotry you have against my faith unfortunately leads to consequences. Catholic Institutions have been target and one church was threaten with fire for following their beliefs. There should be exemptions to any new law based on religion, if not then hatred especially against the Catholic Church will follow, probably to your delight.
http://massresistance.org/docs/gen2/12b/acushnet_church/
Posted on: 2013/10/14 20:15
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About 8 years ago, a Catholic couple came to me and asked that I perform their wedding. The church that they would like to have used said no. The soon-to-be wife was previously married and divorced. The wedding was just never annulled.
If the church can decline heterosexual couples a service based on their tenants, they can do the same for homosexual couples. Yvonne?s objections are baseless and, in my opinion, are just excuses to mask her bigotry. In the meantime, I saw this comment made on NJ.com and found it quite appropriate: Quote: I am amazed by the number of people that have the opinion that Judge Jacobson was legislating from the bench. She was clearly acting well within her authority to declare New Jersey's current marriage law unconstitutional. She did not write a new law. She merely ruled that the old law violate provisions of federal law and was unenforceable.
Posted on: 2013/10/14 17:21
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N.J. judge denies Christie administration request to delay same-sex marriage
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... ay_same-sex_marriage.html Oct 10 2013 Christopher Baxter/The Star-Ledger TRENTON ? A state Superior Court judge today denied the Christie administration's request to delay same-sex marriages in New Jersey beyond Oct. 21 while it appeals the matter to the state Supreme Court, saying that such a move would infringe on couples' rights. But the administration quickly responded by requesting the same delay from the state Appellate Division instead, according to the state Attorney General's Office. It is unclear when the court will consider the motion. Judge Mary Jacobson ruled last month that same-sex couples in New Jersey were being denied equal rights and must be allowed to marry in view of the U.S. Supreme Court's June ruling that overturned the Defense of Marriage Act. The administration intends to appeal the ruling directly to the state Supreme Court to prevent the marriages, bypassing the normal procedure through the appellate courts. In the meantime, it had asked Jacobson to delay marriages until the appeal was decided. But in a 17-page decision issued today, Jacobson rejected the request and said allowing marriages to move forward would cause no harm to the state and the administration was unlikely to succeed on appeal. "The 'harm' (the state) alleges simply cannot justify depriving plaintiffs and other same-sex couples of equality in the form of access to important federal marital benefits," Jacobson wrote. Gov. Chris Christie's office has not yet returned a message. Gay-rights advocates applauded the decision. "This is a historic moment for all loving and committed couples in New Jersey," said Mike Premo, the campaign manager for New Jersey United for Marriage. "The fact that those who have waited so long for this moment can get married in just 11 days is truly amazing and something to be celebrated." Opponents said they were disappointed. John Tomicki, president of the New Jersey Coalition to Preserve and Protect Marriage, said he hopes for a resolution quickly. "You don't want to wind up with the situation that happened in California," Tomicki said. "First there were same-gender marriages. Then there weren't. Then there were. You want to find some logical consistency." Star-Ledger staff writer Brent Johnson contributed to this report.
Posted on: 2013/10/11 3:33
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For Yvonne.
Posted on: 2013/10/11 2:55
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Do you also believe that gay couples cannot raise children as properly as opposite sex couples? No need to answer, I know your response and I also do not need to link you to the scientific literature that proves outcomes are the same. No matter what happens around you, you will always hold true to your bias - your religion. I swear, if you read somewhere that dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans, you would believe it..oh wait. bad example...
Posted on: 2013/10/11 2:36
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I think you're wrong about what "the public" wants but more to the point, I don't think it's relevant what the public wants. It wasn't relevant in Loving v. Virginia either.
Posted on: 2013/10/11 1:55
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There needs to be more research about genetics and homosexuality.
Posted on: 2013/10/11 1:19
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Not all are against Gay Marriage.
Posted on: 2013/10/11 0:26
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