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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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Why not the same gun laws for Montana and NYC? They are subject to the same tax code, even though the cost of living is much higher in NYC than in Montana. There are all sorts of regional advantages and disadvantages to living anywhere. Why should guns be different?
Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:27
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Quote:
Any power not specifically enumerated to the Feds in the Constitution is automatically given to the states. Why would someone in Montana have the same gun laws as someone in New York City, anyway?
Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:12
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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But there is evidence. Vast, heaping, seemingly incontrovertible evidence to support the notion that stricter gun laws lead to lower violent crime. It exists all over the world. Why does the U.S. rank at or near the top in almost any measure of violent crime among the OECD nations? And since the proponents of loose gun laws always fall back on the second amendment, wouldn't it be interesting if gun laws were enacted at the federal level? It seems to be a more reliable way to regulate the availability and movement of guns than the hodge-podge system that is currently in place. I would think the NRA would play along with such a change - far fewer politicians to buy if you get rid of all the state-level folks.... 
Posted on: 2009/12/17 19:53
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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I do not have a right to use a gun violently against another person, except in self-defense.
By the same token, no one person or entity (including government) has the moral right to prevent me (through force) from owning a gun. Owning a gun, in and of itself, is not a crime against humanity. Ironically, if you do not follow gun laws, force will be used against you at gunpoint.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 17:05
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Boy Accidentally Shoots Himself With Gun Left Under Christmas Tree
 CORTEZ, Colo. ? Authorities say a 12-year-old Colorado boy accidentally shot himself in the leg while playing with a loaded pistol his parents had hidden behind the family Christmas tree. Montezuma County Sheriff Gerald Wallace says the boy was shot in the calf on Monday morning but the injury wasn't serious. Wallace says the parents had left for work but other family members took the boy to a hospital. The sheriff says he won't recommend charges because the parents had left the .22 pistol a reasonable distance from the child. It wasn't clear why the weapon was hidden there. Wallace says the boy was "digging around" when he found it. His father had other weapons locked in a safe.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 16:45
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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It's often close to impossible to prove causation in the real world, so a strong correlation is actually a pretty good starting point when making public policy. Since there is a strong positive correlation between gun ownership rates and murder rates (meaning, when one is high the other is, too), seeing what happens when you reduce gun ownership rates is not a bad way to proceed, given the available data. You may be right, though, that it's not the best way - and that's it's politically popular because it seems easier as compared to changing another correlated factor, like poverty rates.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 21:10
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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"This is not to say, of course, that correlation proves causation - it does not. No studies have been able to show that higher rates of gun ownership are the cause of the higher murder rates - or that lowering rates of gun ownership decreases murder rates."
I agree. I was simply trying to point out the logical fallacy in the propaganda I have been hearing in the news lately. "So neither side of the debate currently has the evidence it really needs to show whether gun control should be an important aspect of public policy efforts to decrease violent crime." Not quite - in the absence of concrete evidence showing that stricter gun laws reduce violent crime, there is absolutely no justification to waste resources drafting, passing, and enforcing gun laws that - once again - GREATLY impact law abiding citizens like myself. The arguement shouldn't be "show me how fewer gun laws reduce crime." We should be asking "Why on earth are we making all this effort when no one can show that it makes any difference?"
Posted on: 2009/12/15 20:40
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Erica:
Interesting point. I've always wondered about that too. Since Jersey City has thousands, and thousands of legally registered firearms, you notice that gun crime is very low. Out of a city with 240k residents, DeFazio's office reports less than 20 gun related murders in '08 in JC. And up until that kook (Dave's Sporting Goods??) shot his gun in the air on Newark Avenue, no legal gun owning resident of Jersey City was involved with any gun offense.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 19:56
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Without weighing in on either side, a few paragraphs in defense of properly using and understanding statistics: You can\'t just say \"Virginia has looser gun laws and a lower crime rate than NJ, so more guns don\'t lead to more crime.\" To make a meaningful comparison, you have to control for other differences between the states that could account for the different crime rates. And, once you\'ve done that, you still can\'t just assume a cause-and-effect relationship (just because two statistics are related doesn\'t mean one causes the other). When other variables are properly controlled for, studies consistently show that there is a strong relationship between more gun ownership and higher murder rates. This relationship holds true when comparing US cities, states, and regions, as well as when comparing the US to other countries. This is not to say, of course, that correlation proves causation - it does not. No studies have been able to show that higher rates of gun ownership are the cause of the higher murder rates - or that lowering rates of gun ownership decreases murder rates. So neither side of the debate currently has the evidence it really needs to show whether gun control should be an important aspect of public policy efforts to decrease violent crime. http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck ... _more_or_less_common.html
Posted on: 2009/12/15 19:34
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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After everything I said in my other post, I think the real reason anyone should be concerned about this bill has nothing to do with guns. Most people aren't "gun guys" and hearing about one-gun-per month they might think "big deal, I don't buy guns anyway, who cares how many guns the gun nuts can get at once." Well, the biggest issue with this bill is it is a red herring. It takes resources to implement any governmewnt policy and this one has no tangible benefit. There is massive corruption in this state, which has reached all levels of government from Jersey City's local police all the way up the chain, and Governer Corzine has successfully said to the NJ public "LOOK OVER THERE! YOUR PROBLEMS ARE BEING CAUSED BY A SMALL MINORITY OF HOBBYISTS WE HAVE BEEN SCAPEGOATING FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS!" and it is just being eaten up. I guess it bothers me that I'm being portrayed as a threat for no other reason that I like expensive toys that make loud noises, no different than your neighbor who owns a sports car/motorcycle or some guy who loves his deafening DJ setup. You might not understand it but that doesn't mean I should be punished.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 18:33
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Just one more observation...the new attack that antis are making is that we in NJ have high "gun crime" (of course, other crime is OK) because of lax laws in other states. HOW COME THOSE OTHER STATES HAVE LOWER CRIME RATES THAN NJ IF IT IS SO EASY TO GET GUNS THERE? +10000000 Yes. The argument that there is high gun crime in NJ because criminals can get guns in Virginia should translate into even HIGHER gun crimes rates in Virginia---but it doesn't. Besides, when you make it difficult to obtain guns legally, all you're doing is making it difficult for the LAW-ABIDING to obtain guns (since, by definition, they're the only ones who obtain guns legally). Criminals will always find a way to get their hands on a gun, and it won't be through the procedures outlined in the state code. Quote: Virginia has a One Gun a Month law. Yes. Unless you have a CCP, in which case you can (and I have friends who do) purchase as many guns per month as you want. And still Virginia has lower gun crime rates than NJ. It's a head-scratcher, ain't it?
Posted on: 2009/12/15 17:33
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I'm new and don't know how to use the quote function well, so forgive me if anything I say is confusing. Time to correct lots of misinformation in this thread.
1. You cannot buy a gun without first getting a background check, either at a store or a gunshow. This is true in all 50 states, and has been since the Brady Act of 1993. The "gun show loophole" that the antis blather on about doesn't exist. The "loophole" they are actually referring only covers private transfers, such as inheritance and gifts, which they have been trying to make illegal. The initial purchase still requires a background check. 2. I actually sat through the entire "One-Gun-A-Month" public hearing (which is more than I can say for Governer Corzine, or any of the "Task Force" members), where evidence both for and against the law was supposed to be presented. There was virtually no evidence presented that was in favor of the law. Other states with similar ordinances showed no impact, positive or negative, on crime rates. The "time to crime" data, which measures how much time elapses between a gun being purchased and a gun being used in a crime, is 12 years in NJ. Unless straw buyers are sitting on their wares for a few years, criminals are getting firearms through theft, not NJ straw buyers. 3. It is impossible to buy 12 handguns per year in NJ. Just head on down to the police station and find out. After applying for your FID, simply wait 6-12 months while your background check (which can be done in 15 minutes over the phone) and paperwork sits at the police station. Once your FID is approved, come back and apply for one (and only one) Pistol Purchase Permit. Pay the background check fee once again, and wait 3-6 months for your permit. Go to the store. Don't see what you want? Well, too bad, because you only have three months to use the permit, and it is non-refundable. If you find what you want, fill out the paperwork and pay for a third background check (all these checks are the same, BTW). It is impossible to complete this process 12 times per year. 4. This law, while doing lots to make my life difficult as a gun owner, actually greatly impedes the ATF in their duties of catching straw buyers. Why is that, you ask? Well, when someone buys more than one handgun at a time, a red flag goes up in the ATF's database and that person will get some extra scrutiny. Now, only one purchase will be made at a time. There is nothing distinguishing a potential straw buyer (as few as they are) from anyone else. Those of you support this law...please, head down to the JCPD at 8 Erie street and get your FID. You don't have to buy a gun, but you will quickly see that this law is pointless and redundant in the face of the extensive and onerous process to get an FID in NJ. Besides, criminals get guns the same place they get drugs...the black market. Just one more observation...the new attack that antis are making is that we in NJ have high "gun crime" (of course, other crime is OK) because of lax laws in other states. HOW COME THOSE OTHER STATES HAVE LOWER CRIME RATES THAN NJ IF IT IS SO EASY TO GET GUNS THERE? It\'s because crime rates have nothing to do with gun ownership. Guns don't cause or reduce crime any more than cars do...there is just no relation. Look at NJ's Brady score: http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/NJ NJ is ranked #2 out of 50. If guns laws impacted crime, we should also have the second lowest violent crime in the nation, but we don't. We are surpassed by numerous states with "dangerously loose" gun laws. Seems like poverty and urban decay has much more impact on crime than how many guns I, a tax paying, gainfully employed, productive citizen can waste his money on in a given time period. If you read this whole post to the bottom, thanks for taking the time.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 17:24
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Here's the ATF Trace Report for NJ 2008 http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downloa ... trace-data-new-jersey.pdf NJ has it's own trace system, NJTrace, which supposedly traces things in more detail. But that info is for law enforcement only I'm told, and does not post reports for public viewing online like the ATF.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 16:17
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While I don't have a gun because I have a child and I'm not trained, I certainly don't begrudge anyone who lawfully does. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/1 ... rlyshow/main5949873.shtml In terms of efficacy of this initiative, I'd be interested in seeing which portion of illegal guns in JC come from law abiding citizens selling to folks who shouldn't have them versus being completely black market...
Posted on: 2009/12/15 14:48
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Posted on: 2009/12/15 6:31
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I can't believe I can only get 12 guns next year.
2010 is going to suck.
Posted on: 2009/12/15 3:19
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Do you even read your own? Are you suggesting that criminals be submitted to background checks before purchasing firearms? And with regards to unstable people, it's only know if they're unstable, when mental health records, are submitted to NCIS. That has been corrected since VA Tech, since that wasn't done. But the problem with mental health records, is obvious. They don't get submitted if there isn't any. With regards to thorough background checks, fortunately, this already happens in NJ, before NJ residents are set up in NCIS. I don't know about other States.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 22:23
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did...did you read my post at all? Performing thorough background checks instead of instant checks (or not performing them at all) would be a step in the right direction.
Do you really think that only obtaining one handgun per month is really a good enough deterrent? What does it matter how many guns a criminal or unstable person can get each month. He's still getting them. Thorough background checks are a more reliable tool for keeping guns out of the wrong hands.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 21:58
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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What would be enough?
Posted on: 2009/12/14 21:01
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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A one-gun a month law isn't really enough. From an AP article: "In New York, four out of five guns came from out of state. The single largest source for those out-of-state guns? Virginia (with Florida, North Carolina and Georgia right behind). The statistics run up the East Coast. In the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia together supplied more than half the guns found. In Camden, N.J., a poor city over the Delaware River from Philadelphia, Virginia was the source for one out of six guns. Virginia was the biggest out-of-state source in Philadelphia and Baltimore."
Posted on: 2009/12/14 20:34
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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How safe do you feel in a city that has a population of about 240k, and yet has around 250k registered firearms?
Posted on: 2009/12/14 18:20
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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There is a better chance you'll just end up shot.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 17:51
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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guess you didn't read the article. Virginia has a One Gun a Month law. So how are guns in Virginia freely available?
Posted on: 2009/12/14 17:39
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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Anyway, as much as I approve of tighter gun control laws, it doesn't really mean shit because as long as Virginia, Georgia, Texas, and other states have guns freely available to anybody that wants them, criminal elements will just head to those states. Most of the gun crime in northern and pacific states is linked back to southern states with extremely lax gun laws.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 17:25
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Keeping guns out of the hands of people like you makes us all safer. Not true. I'd rather there be citizens trained in the use of firearms around in the event I find myself the victim of a violent crime. At least that way, there's chance the crime can be stopped. By the time the police get there, it's always too late.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 17:00
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Re: It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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Keeping guns out of the hands of people like you makes us all safer.
Posted on: 2009/12/14 15:21
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It's a good thing NJ has such strict gun laws
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Reading the headlines posted by GrovePath this morning made me realize that it's a good thing that NJ has such strict gun laws! Keeping guns out of the hands of the law-abiding while gangbangers are running around shooting people and robbing gas stations sure makes me feel safe!
Posted on: 2009/12/14 15:16
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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NY is trying to pass a law that makes it mandatory for all ammo to be micro stamped like a finger print and owners needs to register the ammo. It will force ammo companies to stop selling in NY. So the citizens of NY will be unarmed.
Another law the criminals are sure to abide by. Im starting to beleive the laws have nothing to do with criminals vs lawful citizens but corrupt govt vs the tax payer. like lost corrupt socialist govt they always try to unarm the populace before they start taking away every other right.
Posted on: 2009/8/7 14:07
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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How stupid. Straw purchases are ALREADY illegal, so, by design, this law is attempting to get at behavior that is ALREADY a felony. How about instead of imposing more burdens on people making lawful purchases, we enforce the laws that are already on the books?
Also, and just to quibble, the second article states that Virginia is another state in which people may purchase only one handgun a year. This isn't entirely true. If you have a concealed carry permit in Virginia (a shall-issue state, meaning the permit is very easy to get), you can buy as many handguns as you want. Only those people who don't have a concealed carry permit are limited in their purchases.
Posted on: 2009/8/7 13:58
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More completely useless actions by an inept politician. Oh no! I can only but 12 guns a year in NJ?! I might have to go to PA to buy more!
How about incereasing penalties for felons in possession?! Can't do that! They, and their families, are his election base (as well as his fellow dems here in JC)! What a tool!
Posted on: 2009/8/7 11:25
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