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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
 
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The ratio on plan "D" appears to be 60:40, however, comparing ratios without size is not very scientific. Since the Van Vorst run is a total of 4600 sq ft according to a JJ article, then 2/3 of that is 3036. So our "plan D" run at 4391 is 44% larger than Van Vorst's 3036, and the many small dogs have plenty of room too. What's your problem? Are you really saying to vote against "D" because the ratio isn't to your liking, though the run itself is much larger than Van Vorst's?
Posted on: 2007/5/22 3:36
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Home away from home
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Posted on: 2007/5/22 2:54
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Maybe a little focusing of this discussion could help.
Here's the plan D pro/con breakdown as I see it. Can anyone add to either list? Pros: 1 - The dog runs are physically separated, which Parkman say reduces aggressive barking through the fence of a divided run. 2 - reopens the northeast spoke path, restoring the historic walkways. 3 - Retains 2 tennis courts, making one multiuse. 4 - creates bigger more consolidated playground, which makes it easier for parents (and preschool teachers) to watch kids of multiple ages. 5 - Playground area has larger trees well placed for shade in playground, a perennial complaint about the existing one. 6 -water play area is better placed for monitoring multiple kids there as well as in the playground. 7 - because of actually moving the playground there's a possibility of the new one being built before demo-ing the old one, thus not being without for many months. 8 - Brings the playground further away from the basketball court and it's loud, often foul voices. Cons: 1 -Dog runs in total together are 5% smaller than the run in A,B,C. This is without any tweaks to either design. 2 - No putting green 3 - No community garden replacing ball court. NOTE: I avoid listing whether the dog run is by 9th St or McWilliams as a pro or con since it depends on where you live or hang out in the park.
Posted on: 2007/5/22 2:20
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Home away from home
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Ian, I don?t know how to break this to you, but based on your incoherent and just plain idiotic posts on this thread, your Mensa membership, and all Mensa privileges are hereby revoked, effective immediately. Have a nice day. Super_Furry Jersey City Mensa Coordinator
Posted on: 2007/5/22 0:01
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Home away from home
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Good one!  I was beginning to think we were trapped in a time warp or parallel universe where all info was transmorgafied!  
Posted on: 2007/5/21 23:22
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 Help US Sue Spectra! Join OR Donate! |
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I think I meant the first paragraph I thought about writing but didn't. Oops.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 23:14
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Home away from home
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Here's your "first paragraph of my post attempted to answer the question.": Quote: ianmac47 wrote:I think that anyone who wants a multi-use tennis court votes for D. This is a large portion of people as per the votes from last year. However, due to the way the ballot system has been designed, this is not necessarily what most people will want. Most people have already demonstrated a preference for a multi-use court and hence will vote for THE ONLY DESIGN WITH A MULTI-USE COURT. Ianmac47, don't mean to bust your cojones, but how exactly does ANYTHING in that "first paragraph" of yours above, pertain to my queries directed at 4bailey concerning large dogs, small dogs, "anti-dog/dog neutral" persons and why they are drawn to option D???  My query was specifically as to why "DOG LOVERS" think this is true what 4bailey said about option D. My own conjecture is that 4bailey is a large dog(s) owner and thinks their dog run is being given the short shaft due to having to also have a small dog run and he/she casts these persos as being either "anti-dog or dog neutral". But that's just speculation since 4bailey has not replied Quote: brightmoment wrote:
Posted on: 2007/5/21 23:12
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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The first paragraph of my post attempted to answer the question. The rest of the post was not meant to address the specific question.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 22:59
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Home away from home
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ianmac47 wrote: Well you are missing the point I was making which is in fact, a broken democratic system. Just as a presidential candidate can win the electoral college and lose the popular vote, the most popular design may not actually be the winner.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 22:24
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Well you are missing the point I was making which is in fact, a broken democratic system. Just as a presidential candidate can win the electoral college and lose the popular vote, the most popular design may not actually be the winner.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 22:10
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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ianmac47 wrote: Wow! Ianmac thanks for the speculation as to those dog-owners who like putting greens, multi-use courts vs singular tennis courts, et al, but my query above was ONLY about why "anti-dog/dog neutral posters...gravitate to brewster D" as was characterized by the poster (4bailey ?), NOT as to what their other concerns in the park are. What I still want to know is if 4bailey sees Option D as a compromise or lousy implementation of having both a large and small dog run together. If he/she is a large dog person perhaps they don't see the need for a small dog run and feel Option D compromises their need for a larger space. I wanted to know their specific reasoning not yours or someone else's speculation on the permutations of different options here.  However, like Sam I will be happy with whatever the community votes for as unlike Janet Allen I believe in a democratic process with ALL who use the park having their say that day June 9th, whether you live in Bergen-Lafayette, Greenville or on Hamilton Park, you're all equal in this process. 
Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:38
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I think that anyone who wants a multi-use tennis court votes for D. This is a large portion of people as per the votes from last year. However, due to the way the ballot system has been designed, this is not necessarily what most people will want. Most people have already demonstrated a preference for a multi-use court and hence will vote for THE ONLY DESIGN WITH A MULTI-USE COURT. Now assuming that a putting green is a minor amenity to the park, voters who want a large dog park and two tennis courts are still presented with 2 options, A or B, essentially identical plans. In fact, so similar that with little to no effort, A could replace B, or B could replace A after a year if the community decided (replacing a putting green with natural grass or building a putting green after the fact is frankly, a minor weekend project many homeowners would undertake in their own yards given the opportunity). The point is, A & B votes are dividing votes for large dog run + 2 tennis courts. As an example, lets say the votes are in the following percentages: A 25% B 25% C 25% D 25% It seems on the surface that everyone is equally divided on the plan. but what this does say is: 75% of voters want 2 tennis courts. 50% of voters want a large dog run. Perhaps though, the vote will look more like this: A 21% B 21% C 18% D 40% It appears that D is the winner. But 42% of all votes would still have been for a large dog run (and 2 tennis courts) rather than the divided do run. It also tells us that 40% of all voters wanted a multi-use court. (though If I recall, a higher percentage wanted a multi use court, as per the surveys)
Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:08
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Home away from home
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Quote:
BUMP - could someone answer Bright's question?
Posted on: 2007/5/21 20:38
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Yes, I think really only one court needs to be designated multi-use. It seems to have been the prevailing sentiment that a multi-use court should be included in the park, as per the previous votes. Logically then, every layout should have included at least 1 multi-use court, because the issue of IF there should be a multi-use court has already been decided. The same thing is true of the putting green. The decision to include or not include a putting green should have already been decided, thus eliminating an entire option from the current ballot, leaving only 3 options and making the vote about LAYOUT, not the amenities of the renovation. While obviously a number of people have put a great deal of effort into all this, and the community should be thankful, there are also obvious and egregious errors in the process.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 19:22
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Frankly the dog runs in all four plans are more than adequate and bigger than what I've seen in many other places. In fact a colleague of mine from Manhattan came by just this past Sunday, and I showed her the area for the dog runs and she made just that comment and further commented she would be surprised if everyone wasn't thrilled.
If only one tennis court is designated multiuse, its not likely it will change people's conduct when deciding to play ball in the other areas of the park. For one, at most times of the day during appropriate weather conditions, at least one is being used for tennis. So even if its multiuse, it will typically be used for tennis. Alternatively, if the court designated for tennis only isn't being used for tennis at a particular time, its not likely that some who wants to use it for volleyball won't. What's going to drive people to play ball in the undesignated areas is the additional density of humanity moving to the area. In conunction with the dispostion of the actors. While I am most definitely voting for plan D, because it clearly accomodates the vast majority of the needs of the community as experssed, I find all of the plans to be fine. I for one am very greatful for the effort put in to this and will be happy to finally see a renovated Hamilton Park.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 18:45
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Yes, but it seems there are two serious problems that the renovation is attempting to address. 1. Dogs running freely on open area and destroying the grass. 2. people playing with balls in the park rather than designated areas.
if the majority of people are unsatisfied with either resolution, either a dog park that does not meet their needs, or not constructing a multi-use surface, one or both problems will continue to exist after an expensive renovation.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 18:24
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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People will only be as disappointed as they allow themselves to be. All four options offer a park with more and better accomodations than what we have now.
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Posted on: 2007/5/21 18:14
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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This voting will only lead to a lot of disappointed voters because there are more than 2 options, thus nearly impossible for the winner to have a majority of votes.
In other words, rendering B is the Ralph Nader of the park plans.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 18:02
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Home away from home
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It will be vote for one with no ranking.
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Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:57
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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4bailey, Ilove dogs, big & small, but don't own a dog. I want there to be suitable dog runs and SEPARATE for BOTH large and small dogs. I know this is important cause my neighbor runs the small dog run in NYC in Chelsea and is active here at VVP dog run. Please explain why you think that only "anti-dog/dog neutral posters ...gravitate to "brewster D"..." as I am neither anti-dog or dog neutral. Also please let us know whether you have big or small dogs and do you see the need for separate dog runs for both sizes. Thank you!
Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:42
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Got that. But,? do you know whether the format is "VOTE-FOR-ONE" or whether the ballot lets voter gets to rank the 4 concepts? The distinction is important. In a ?VOTE-FOR-ONE? ballot, having 3 options with a large run and 1 option with the 2 blobby runs looks to be a magnanimous gesture to the dog-owner community on the surface. However, it?s a ?Trojan Horse? if it?s net effect is to split the vote of those that wish one-run. Talk about the ?good ole days? of JC electoral politics? You solve this problem by having a ranking ballot, where you assign each concept a numerical value from 1 (Best) to 4 (Worst). In this case, the concept with the lowest total numerical ?score? is the winner. This way the concept that?s least offensive to the majority of people floats to the top. It?s not as straightforward and simple as ?VOTE-FOR-ONE?, but it?s probably the fairest approach given the complexity of the concepts. Quote:
Totally debatable, and there?s more to come from me on that.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:19
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"Dogs are our link to paradise." - Milan Kundera
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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The ballot form has been decided and absentee ballots will be going out soon.
I'm stating the obvious, but the "D" option has some risk, since many people believe it will have to be tweaked to make it suitable (the north run) for large dogs. The city, in all of its wisdom, provided a total of four concepts. Go figure. The important thing, IMHO, is to move this forward so the renovation will happen. Quote:
Posted on: 2007/5/21 16:28
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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SF - has the ballot form already been decided?... Is it a straight, up-or-down, vote for one or is it a ranking?... Just asking because there seems to be a trend of the anti-dog/dog netural posters to gravitate to "brewster D" - the 2 blobby dog-runs. Having 3 other concepts with a full-run effectively "splits the full-run vote" in a "vote-for-one" ballot.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 15:41
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"Dogs are our link to paradise." - Milan Kundera
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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Reminder - now is the time to request an absentee ballot for the Hamilton Park Renovation vote, which will take place during the Festival on June 9 (June 10 rain date)
Absentee ballots are available but must be requested by Saturday, June 2nd. Please e-mail hpnajc@gmail.com to request a ballot. You must include your name(s) and physical address in the request and an absentee ballot with return instructions will be delivered to your residence. Voting is open to all Jersey City residents aged 18 and over.
Posted on: 2007/5/21 15:25
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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I don't golf. I'm also awful at mini golf. But what the heck, who knows, maybe I'll take up the sport once there is a putting green in hamilton park.
Anyway, does anyone know how the renovation will commence, how much of the park will be closed / open during renovations?
Posted on: 2007/5/18 16:02
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Different strokes for different folks. "Also, people, A has a putting Green. I mean, A PUTTING GREEN! Come on!" That's one of the reasons why I'm voting against A and FOR "D"!  
Posted on: 2007/5/18 14:59
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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At this point I'm leaning towards A because I think its really poor planning to split the dog park into two literally separate runs-- this also creates more fencing in the park because th small dog run and the big dog run aren't sharing any common fence. Also, people, A has a putting Green. I mean, A PUTTING GREEN! Come on!
Posted on: 2007/5/18 14:53
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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When we first embarked on the balloting process, I warned a lot of folks that the end result would not be what any one person had envisioned, because many of our interests would conflict somewhere along the line. So we should keep our expectations in place, and accept the fact that we share the park with a bunch of other folks. Once the dog run issue came up, I always said it would be a good idea if the tennis courts could be shifted east and the dog run placed between the gazebo and the tennis courts. Of course I didn't anticipate that Pavonia Ave would open up through the hospital, which most agree is a nice new benefit.
The HPNA never promised that the results of the ballots would be adopted in its entirety nor did we say we would open up voting on the design. We hoped the city architect would have taken the report, adopt most of it and figure out how to design it to meet most of the community's needs and desires. Like Brewster, I don't we should be again voting on the multiuse court issue, when it was already addressed in the original ballotting. But this was the result or consequence of the last community input meeting. Of course, like supperfurry, I somehow doubt that labeling only one tennis court multi use would stop other folks from using both courts for purposes other than tennis. Unless of course the composition of the new tennis court would somehow warrant strick enforecment of a tennis only code. I just hope most folks could appreciate how much work has been put into this, and how much progress has been, Then ultimately just enjoy the park for for what it is, while understanding that we have to share it and keep their expectations in check. Finally, I would vote for D. It seems to make the most accomodations for the community.
Posted on: 2007/5/18 14:32
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Re: Hamilton Park Renovation - Meeting Dates
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Home away from home
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square footage of a tennis court: 7,439 the square footage of the dog-run in Concept A, B and C if you eliminate the ?Game Table? area and use that inside corner, not extending towards the street:10,122 sq ft total dog run area of my tweak:small dog run 2,933 + large 6,327=9,260 I don't see where a split run has been mentioned for ABC. I also don't think they'd bring it any closer to the 9th street residences. As for the incremental cost of 2 runs, that has not been presented as our problem. I guess we'll all vote as we see it, you seem to be looking at it more narrowly than I, but that's your right. I'm not particularly happy with the format of the ballot either. Having multiple variables across the options is clumsy, a set of individual questions similar to the HPNA ballot would have yielded clearer results, and not made anyone choose between multi-use courts and a single dog run. speaking of the HPNA ballot, it included this result: A. Tennis court(s) in Hamilton Park should be designed as multi-use spaces to accommodate other net sports. (193 votes; 89%) B. Tennis court(s) in Hamilton Park should be used for tennis only. (23 votes; 11%) http://www.hamiltonpark.org/PDFS/HP_R ... tion_Community_Report.pdf I have no idea why we're even voting on whether the courts should be multi-use, the people spoke clearly and overwhelmingly in favor of it.
Posted on: 2007/5/17 23:19
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From my perspective of dealing with park issues, either brewster?s suggestion of moving the tennis court over in concept D, or concept C with an expanded dog run, makes sense.
My preference is D for the following reasons: 1. A, B, and C create a foot traffic problem since there is no clear path to transverse the park from the northeast entrance. Within the first 6 months of renovation you will have two dirt pathways cutting between the children?s areas, the tennis court and the basketball court. So as to not kill the new lawn with these new traffic patterns, you could add slate walkways that tie into the north and east midpoint walkways. 2. If the tennis court could be moved to accommodate a bigger, large dog area, the cost would not be much greater than a common space with a division fence. Both drainage systems could be tied into each other and you save quite a bit of money by eliminating the need for a division fence between the runs. I have also observed from our run that small and large dogs on opposite sides of the division fence promote barking from both sides. A buffer between the two runs is a good thing for the surrounding residents. 3. The location of the dog runs in D gives a much better buffer from noise then being in the northeast quadrant. I can assure you since I live directly across from the VVP run; you want as much distance as possible. If it is not possible to shift the tennis court, then concept C works if you add the slate pathways. I would also recommend expanding the dog run into the area where the game tables are; if dogs are to be on-leash in the rest of the park, they should be given ample room to run in an enclosed space. One last suggestion is make the entrance to the dog run off of the northwest diagonal pathway away from the children?s playgrounds.
Posted on: 2007/5/17 23:17
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