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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Sorry to be blunt, but if I was a condo owner the building, I wouldn't even consider allowing this for a minute unless there was some significant benefit to me, I'd be shocked if they allowed it.

They likely would all have the same reaction as everyone here, why would you buy the place in the first place if it wasn't big enough, and now your going to inconvenience me because you aren't satisfied with your investment - even more from a jealous point of view, why would I allow this person to make his condo larger when I don't have that opportunity myself.

If I were you, I would get your neighbors thoughts before you spend any resources on the idea, because likely you've already spent too much time thinking about something that is likely to not happen, and then if you start spending cash to have designs done, it likely will be a waste. I say this as I've seen something similar occur in my old apartment. A developer bought the place, spent about a year trying to do a massive renovation on the place, spent lots of money getting plans done, approvals from historic board, etc.. The city wanted him to redo the sidewalk and plant new trees, etc... was all a waste at the end and the developer just sold the building instead.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 20:02
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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ProdigalSon - I sent you a private message.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 19:41
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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The new roof will also be the responsibility of all units. It doesn't matter that it only sits on the top of the addition. I know this because
I have this situation. A roof is a roof -- even if the addition is smaller than the floor below it.

Quote:

SRhia wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't get myself into a bind where all future issues with the building (esp the roof) could be "blamed" on you / your addition.

As tempting as your proposal sounds (we own a top floor unit too, with the roof deeded to us), I just don't think I want the trouble of proofing that any issues come up in the future has nothing to do with my addition.

Right now, any issues with the roof / building is the condo association's problem - clean and clear, no arguments, nothing to prove.

Even if the addition gives you 50% in value after cost, given the potential hassle, that's still not worth it. ANd trust me, things (and sentiments) can turn really fast once things go wrong, and money is involved - and if it does, you'll have all other owners against YOU. Just not worth the potential risk.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 19:35
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Personally, I wouldn't get myself into a bind where all future issues with the building (esp the roof) could be "blamed" on you / your addition.

As tempting as your proposal sounds (we own a top floor unit too, with the roof deeded to us), I just don't think I want the trouble of proofing that any issues come up in the future has nothing to do with my addition.

Right now, any issues with the roof / building is the condo association's problem - clean and clear, no arguments, nothing to prove.

Even if the addition gives you 50% in value after cost, given the potential hassle, that's still not worth it. ANd trust me, things (and sentiments) can turn really fast once things go wrong, and money is involved - and if it does, you'll have all other owners against YOU. Just not worth the potential risk.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 18:53
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I understand everyone thinks the major issue is the unit owners. I'm more concerned with the nuts and bolts of moving it forward once I have the owners sign-off.

Again I appreciate the all the comments.Quote:

papadage wrote:
Why would the board and other owners only want that piddling payoff when you stand to gain so much from their agreement?

Posted on: 2014/11/14 18:45
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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ur numbers are way off for what this would cost in fees & construction to add over an existing 'rowhouse'? in hamilton park area if you are looking to add 900-1000 sq.ft floor.
just booming in materials and doing new roof is gonna cost a pretty penny.
and lawyers & architects & engineers cost way more than ur estimates.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 18:40
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Why would the board and other owners only want that piddling payoff when you stand to gain so much from their agreement?

Posted on: 2014/11/14 18:00
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Increased Taxes - This isn't an issue if I want a bigger place I a going to pay more taxes.
Increased Maintenance - See above

I'm estimating the actual construction at $200,000, I think this is a rough cost as I'd probably do one bathroom and then add a bedroom and some closets.
Permit Fees - This indeed will cost something, but lets call it 10% of the construction costs, which I think is high but lets say $20,000
Architect Fees - Again assuming 10% of construction $20,000
Lawyers -Lets say this includes paying off my neighbors too and we come to $60,000.

All in I'm at $300,000 lets add 10% for contingency 330k Looking at places similar in size in my neighborhood, and again this is all relative because there aren't many/any 3200 sqft 4bed condos downtown. But if you use the closest comps 1mil is a conservative estimate. I'd be into my place for significantly less. Even if I'm off by another 30% I'm still ahead of the curve.


Quote:

Kelcey wrote:
I really don't see how it could be more affordable to make the kind of change that you are talking about compared to buying a larger, already built place.

Seems like you minimally encounter:
Increased taxes
Increased maintenance/condo fees
Permit fees
Architect/engineer fees
Lawyers
Contractor/cost of building

But all this speculation is for nothing. Your first stop is the condo board. If they say no, that's it. I agree with others that there's no positive benefit for the other units in the building--only inconvenience and risk (which could potentially be alleviated by throwing a lot of money at them, so maybe add that to the above list?).

Posted on: 2014/11/14 17:50
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Why not just buy a bigger place instead of trying to manuever this city's zoning/planning boards to get variances & disturb neighbors & others in ur building ?
If you are in a historic district they will probably refuse your plan on its face, as it would change the facade of ur building & they get crazy when someone puts in non-historic windows !

Posted on: 2014/11/14 17:26
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Quote:

Greenface wrote:
Definitely hire a good architect. In order for any contractor to pull permits for a job like this, the city will require you to provide signed and sealed drawings from a licensed Architect. The condo board may even require it as well. In addition to providing you with all the required documentation to get the project built, they'll also analyze the zoning and building code issues involved at the very beginning to help you assess whether or not the project is even really feasible.

While a lawyer is critically important for ironing out all the legal issues involved with a project like this, they really aren't versed in the building code issues or interpreting the zoning ordinance into a workable design.


Or just call Tom Bertoli. He can handle all of your issues with permitting in no time. He's not cheap though.

Posted on: 2014/11/14 12:48
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I really don't see how it could be more affordable to make the kind of change that you are talking about compared to buying a larger, already built place.

Seems like you minimally encounter:
Increased taxes
Increased maintenance/condo fees
Permit fees
Architect/engineer fees
Lawyers
Contractor/cost of building

But all this speculation is for nothing. Your first stop is the condo board. If they say no, that's it. I agree with others that there's no positive benefit for the other units in the building--only inconvenience and risk (which could potentially be alleviated by throwing a lot of money at them, so maybe add that to the above list?).

Posted on: 2014/11/13 21:55
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I appreciate hearing about your experience, and like I said I don't even know if it can be done. The economics of it though would appear to work out in my favor.



Quote:

JadedJC wrote:
Quote:

ProdigalSon wrote:
What I would like to move into doesn't seem to exist, or is seldom for sale Downtown. Moving out of JC however is an option.

I realize it inconveniences people but to be blunt, there are so few people that I'm inconveniencing, that I'm sure I could pay for the compliance. It will inevitably bring value to other peoples homes which is also a plus.

I of course realize my taxes, and maintenance fees would increase.

One thing that Consumed is incorrect about is that my construction would increase the taxes on my neighbors. This isn't true. Condo taxes are all assessed to the individual units, and the buildings or associations end up not having a tax bill.

Please keep the advice coming, I'm very interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this matter and any advice anyone would have.



Speaking very frankly and without malice, if you were in my building and if I were on the board, I would oppose your plan and recommend other building owners vote against it. The reason is very simple. There is almost no upside for the other owners but plenty of (potentially costly) downside. While the additional floor would enhance your unit's value, I don't see how it would improve the building as a whole or other units.

We had a similar situation at a previous building lived in, and I was on the board. One of the owners wanted to expand his unit. A 15-minute phone conversation with the HOA's lawyer convinced me this was a bad idea. While expanding outward on a ground floor unit in this case isn't as drastic as adding an entire floor, it is nonetheless major construction - and that always carries risk of damage to the building and other units. The unit owner, of course, will assume all responsibility for damage, but let's say something goes horribly wrong and he's now on the hook for five or six figures in damages. He's a middle class owner and simply doesn't have the means to make things right. Sure, the other owners can band together and sue, but that costs thousands upfront to retain a lawyer. You can even win a judgment against the owner, but any decent lawyer will tell you winning a judgment and actually collecting on it are two completely different things. You could file a lien on the condo unit, but get in line because your claim comes behind any claim the mortgage lender and the lender for this ambitious home improvement might have on the property.

One compromise might be to offer a hefty sum in escrow to deal with any potential damage to the building and other units. It'll depend on the size of the building I can't imagine anything less than $20k-$30k for a small building. Even if you were to get this additional floor built, do you really want to be put in a position where your neighbors will blame you for every crack in the wall and other problem that shows up down the road? It may not be related to your construction, but I guarantee you, human nature being what it is, there will be people saying "Well, I never had this problem until you built your addition on the roof." There is a reason why people generally don't build additions to condos. Save that for a single-family home.

Luckily in the end, we weren't put in a position of having to say "no" to our neighbor. He abandoned the idea and decided to simply buy a bigger place once he realistically priced the actual cost. On top of construction, the cost for the lawyer(s), engineer and architect meant the total outlay far exceeded any financial sense as well as his credit line. Then there was the emotional cost of time and aggravation.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 21:31
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Quote:

ProdigalSon wrote:
What I would like to move into doesn't seem to exist, or is seldom for sale Downtown. Moving out of JC however is an option.

I realize it inconveniences people but to be blunt, there are so few people that I'm inconveniencing, that I'm sure I could pay for the compliance. It will inevitably bring value to other peoples homes which is also a plus.

I of course realize my taxes, and maintenance fees would increase.

One thing that Consumed is incorrect about is that my construction would increase the taxes on my neighbors. This isn't true. Condo taxes are all assessed to the individual units, and the buildings or associations end up not having a tax bill.

Please keep the advice coming, I'm very interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this matter and any advice anyone would have.



Speaking very frankly and without malice, if you were in my building and if I were on the board, I would oppose your plan and recommend other building owners vote against it. The reason is very simple. There is almost no upside for the other owners but plenty of (potentially costly) downside. While the additional floor would enhance your unit's value, I don't see how it would improve the building as a whole or other units.

We had a similar situation at a previous building lived in, and I was on the board. One of the owners wanted to expand his unit. A 15-minute phone conversation with the HOA's lawyer convinced me this was a bad idea. While expanding outward on a ground floor unit in this case isn't as drastic as adding an entire floor, it is nonetheless major construction - and that always carries risk of damage to the building and other units. The unit owner, of course, will assume all responsibility for damage, but let's say something goes horribly wrong and he's now on the hook for five or six figures in damages. He's a middle class owner and simply doesn't have the means to make things right. Sure, the other owners can band together and sue, but that costs thousands upfront to retain a lawyer. You can even win a judgment against the owner, but any decent lawyer will tell you winning a judgment and actually collecting on it are two completely different things. You could file a lien on the condo unit, but get in line because your claim comes behind any claim the mortgage lender and the lender for this ambitious home improvement might have on the property.

One compromise might be to offer a hefty sum in escrow to deal with any potential damage to the building and other units. It'll depend on the size of the building I can't imagine anything less than $20k-$30k for a small building. Even if you were to get this additional floor built, do you really want to be put in a position where your neighbors will blame you for every crack in the wall and other problem that shows up down the road? It may not be related to your construction, but I guarantee you, human nature being what it is, there will be people saying "Well, I never had this problem until you built your addition on the roof." There is a reason why people generally don't build additions to condos. Save that for a single-family home.

Luckily in the end, we weren't put in a position of having to say "no" to our neighbor. He abandoned the idea and decided to simply buy a bigger place once he realistically priced the actual cost. On top of construction, the cost for the lawyer(s), engineer and architect meant the total outlay far exceeded any financial sense as well as his credit line. Then there was the emotional cost of time and aggravation.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 20:02
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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"Another thought (though do not know the JC legality behind it) i think you will also need to speak and get approval from the houses and apartment buildings to each side front and back of your building. as you will change their views"

Not necessarily. As long as you're putting a legal addition on to the building that is in conformance with the zoning ordinance there's nothing the neighbors can do about it.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 19:55
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Quote:
It will increase the property taxes to the building thus raising the amount of money each other owner needs to pay through overall common charges.


That's not how it works. You can look up properties on the tax website and see how individual units cover the taxes as opposed to the condo association. Maybe you are thinking of co-ops?

Posted on: 2014/11/13 19:46
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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It will increase the property taxes to the building thus raising the amount of money each other owner needs to pay through overall common charges.

Another thought (though do not know the JC legality behind it) i think you will also need to speak and get approval from the houses and apartment buildings to each side front and back of your building. as you will change their views. (i do know they make home owners do it for something as simple as a covered deck or additions such as a garage in back or extending front porches etc etc so i am going to assume they would require it for a top floor addition) but check with a lawyer on that one for local laws and regulations

how would it bring value to other home owners? its not a common area its not a public area its an addition to a private space thus not adding any value to anyone other than the owner of the apartment receiving the upgrade. for instance. if i add a bedroom in my apartment by splitting a larger room in half no one else gets any value from it other than me as i can sell / rent for higher rates.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 19:19
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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what would you like to move into......ur wishlist?

Posted on: 2014/11/13 19:14
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Definitely hire a good architect. In order for any contractor to pull permits for a job like this, the city will require you to provide signed and sealed drawings from a licensed Architect. The condo board may even require it as well. In addition to providing you with all the required documentation to get the project built, they'll also analyze the zoning and building code issues involved at the very beginning to help you assess whether or not the project is even really feasible.

While a lawyer is critically important for ironing out all the legal issues involved with a project like this, they really aren't versed in the building code issues or interpreting the zoning ordinance into a workable design.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 19:06
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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What I would like to move into doesn't seem to exist, or is seldom for sale Downtown. Moving out of JC however is an option.

I realize it inconveniences people but to be blunt, there are so few people that I'm inconveniencing, that I'm sure I could pay for the compliance. It will inevitably bring value to other peoples homes which is also a plus.

I of course realize my taxes, and maintenance fees would increase.

One thing that Consumed is incorrect about is that my construction would increase the taxes on my neighbors. This isn't true. Condo taxes are all assessed to the individual units, and the buildings or associations end up not having a tax bill.

Please keep the advice coming, I'm very interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this matter and any advice anyone would have.


Posted on: 2014/11/13 18:50
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Agree with Jaded.

You must check the master deed. then with the board and the rest of the owners. Even if you could convince them they need to understand by you adding footage to the building several things can happen. taxes will go up on both your unit and the building thus other owners will have to pay extra. in some cases special assessments will need to be done. which will cost money to the building as well as other owners. and if during the process anything out of order comes up the building will also have to pay for that. not counting the horrors of poor construction then resulting in losing property value across all owners.

not trying to be a jerk but other than liking where you live why not just find a bigger place in the area? i have had recent large construction in our building and people seem to forget that these are attached properties and the disturbance of a job like that is a selfish act! do you have any idea how long it will take and the inconvenience to others living in the building? not even counting the fact they will most likely need to shell out more money because of this.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 18:21
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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A lawyer is a good place to start. Beyond approval from your condo association and board, this will likely entail an amendment to the master deed for your building as this will change the floor plan and the total square footage of your unit. As voting rights and maintenance fees are usually set according to a unit's percentage of the total square footage in the building, yours are likely to go up. Also be aware that many buildings' bylaws require a two-thirds or three-quarters supermajority approval for any amendments to the master deed. The condo association may very well retain its own attorney to protect the interests of the building and the other owners in this matter - but at your expense.

Beyond that, get a very good engineer. During the real-estate boom 10 years ago, a lot of buildings in JC added floors on top of existing roofs. In many cases, the work was poorly executed, resulting in leaky roofs, extensive water damage and litigation. This in turn damaged the value of all the units in the building, because honestly who would want to buy into a building like that?

Posted on: 2014/11/13 16:29
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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Quote:

ProdigalSon wrote:
I don't live in the historic district, so that isn't an issue. Setting aside the condo board situation, which I'm reasonably confident I can overcome. Where do I start in a move like this?

I would say a lawyer, one who specializes in zoning and permits. Look at the planning and zoning board agendas and you'll see the same names come up again and again.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 2:16
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I don't live in the historic district, so that isn't an issue. Setting aside the condo board situation, which I'm reasonably confident I can overcome. Where do I start in a move like this?

As for the frequency with which it is done, I think that it is something that will become more common as JC actually grows and becomes a more desirable place to live. Families need more space, and this is one way to create it.

I appreciate all the comments and I'm just looking for ideas on how to proceed.

Posted on: 2014/11/13 1:29
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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If you only one one unit, you will need permission from the condo board first. You cannot pierce exterior walls as a condo unit owner. The condo association owns the exterior.

They would be giving you the right to extend the building for your own benefit instead of just adding another unit on top of yours, which would bring value to all owners in the building.

Posted on: 2014/11/12 20:55
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I'm assuming he's referring to a row house.

But to your point, it can happen, but how often it occurs should tell you something about how easy it will be.

Posted on: 2014/11/12 20:44
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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The large condo building on the corner of York and Barrow (gray building) had a floor added in the 1980s or early 1990s. You can see the difference in the design. That building is part of the historic district, too.

Posted on: 2014/11/12 20:39
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Re: Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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If it's in the Historic District be prepared to spend lots of time / years and resources on it, and highly unlikely to ever occur in my opinion.

Posted on: 2014/11/12 20:15
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Adding a floor to a condo building Downtown
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I live in a small condo building. I live on the top floor of said building. What would I need to do to add a floor to my existing condo? Is this something that is done in JC? Is this really hard to do?

Also, what order would I need to do such a thing? Do I get approval from the other owners first? Then have an architect/builder draw something up. Then get approval from the city or state to change the deed which I assume is necessary. Thanks a ton!

Posted on: 2014/11/12 19:56
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