Browsing this Thread:
2 Anonymous Users
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
 
|
Quote:
You started this thread by making some strong accusations based solely from anecdotal evidence. YOU SAID? "CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG?" Sorry if my response did not paint the picture you wanted to hear, but I provided you with what I have personally experienced and have learned from talking with my neighbors about their direct dealings with the Historic Department and you respond with personal insults. So now your talking about being forced to keep lead pipes and lawsuits. You only have to comply with the Historic Building department's rules when you are building. No one is going to knock on your door and force you to do restorations. Again, I have never heard of anyone being forced to keep or restore an INTERIOR historic characteristic feature. I believe that is the reason that you started this thread, correct? Sure, the building department will want to make sure you don't cut through a wall and hit an old gas line or make the building unstable, but they are not going to tell you you have to install wide plank pine floors, lead pipes, or dig a period correct outhouse in the back yard.
Posted on: 2016/7/26 21:11
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
He drove me crazy. I didn't have the time, energy or resources for a lawsuit - especially one with an uncertain outcome. In the end, I decided it was much easier to sell the damn historic albatross, and I even managed to come out ahead on the sale.
Posted on: 2016/7/26 19:16
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
Joined:
2012/9/18 3:58 Last Login : 2021/9/23 15:07 From Between Thought and Expression
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
907
 |
Quote:
Of course, but if you want to, let's say move a load bearing interior wall historic get's involved, because if the job is done wrong the building could collapse which would have a negative impact on the historic characteristics of the building.
Posted on: 2016/7/26 15:14
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Just can't stay away
 
|
Yes, shame on me, SOS. I can't prove anything, matt07302.
People like you two exist and I just deal with it. Thanks for being boat anchors, it helps those around you to become stronger. Thanks for the helpful responses, others. I'd like to reiterate it has yet to affect me, but Wriedon's overreach may in the future affect me. I may have to keep my lead water main! I hope it doesn't have to be me to bring the lawsuit. I'm not a 1 percenter and don't have unlimited time/money to fight the government. No wonder 90% of people continue to do construction quietly without permits (or all permits, just getting a little bullshit one and then doing massive renos).
Posted on: 2016/7/26 14:55
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Can anyone confirm that the Historic Dept. has ever forced the historic preservation of an interior characteristic? Answer? NO
Posted on: 2016/7/26 1:24
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Here's my take on the HPO/HPC in Jersey City.
A lot of what the HPO/HPC demands is ultra vires. The enabling provisions in the MLUL are for ?preservation? but the HPO/HPC demands ?restoration? and ?reconstruction? work. They get away with it because they have power over issuing approvals, and most people just give in or go away. The appeal process ? first the Zoning Board then the Courts ? is too expensive, cumbersome and time consuming, and the HPO/HPC knows it. So in response to the OP's question, given how the HPO/HPC operates, it would come as no surprise to me if they are attempting to extend their reach into interior spaces of historic buildings. Per ordinance, every permit application (yes, including water heaters....) for work on a building in a historic district must first be signed off by the HPO. This provides plenty of opportunity for ?regulatory creep.? In general, with very few exceptions (for example, National Register listing) interiors in privately-owned historic buildings in NJ are beyond the HPO/HPC's grasp, provided the work has no effect on anything visible from a public right of way. However, I'm certain the limits of the enabling legislation won't stop the HPO/HPC once they get started. No, it will take a Court case. On the other side will be an army of ?preservationists? determined to spend other people's money to ?reconstruct? the late 1800's in an historically accurate manner ? lead containing paint and all, no doubt. For additional information, here are a few useful links: For a collection of some (not all...) of the relevant MLUL provisions see this download at: www.nj.gov/dep/hpo/3preserve/mlul_7_07.pdf and another a download at www.nj.gov/dep/hpo/hpo_article.pdf Additionally, a link to the State Historic Preservation Office: http://www.nj.gov/dep/hpo/ and download presentation about the NJ MLUL: www.preservationnj.org/site/Ex ... /pdfs/NJHistPreseMLUL.pdf Brewster said it all in an earlier response: ?Thank God I am not in a district...? Good luck ? you'll need it!
Posted on: 2016/7/26 0:15
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
How do you ensure there is no impact on the exterior? Inspect, or require a permit for interior alterations.
Posted on: 2016/7/25 23:53
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Newbie
|
Fyi
NYC lawyer does not equal NJ historic preservation expert. Anyway, there are over a million examples of how an historic building can be altered rendering it historically butchered. And once that happens. The value of your house goes down, your neighbors, and the District that was fought for to preserve. Also, NYC historic preservation is WAY MORE stringent. So, relax.
Posted on: 2016/7/25 21:40
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Wishful, but what about these interior inspections and plumbing permits that are being talked about? Those seem clearly outside the scope you describe, which is what some of us are familiar with.
Posted on: 2016/7/25 19:27
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
I've worked in historic preservation for many years, and this is a very common misunderstanding. With regard to work that can be approved, JC's historic preservation guidelines state "The distinguishing original qualities or character of a building, structure, or site and its environment shall not be destroyed." The enabling legislation, or the individual designation reports, generally identify specific architectural and site features, characteristics, etc., that are considered "significant protected features." Characteristics of the building that you can see from the street - materials, details, scale, etc., are usually significant protected features, and the local landmarks law protects them. But (almost always exterior) features you don't see from the street - original siding, special windows, metal oriels - as well as defining characteristics, such as it's overall scale, and what % of the site it occupies, the presence of historic outbuildings, are also considered character defining features and the local landmarks law may protect those as well. Is your lawyer friend from NYC, and is she or he experienced in land-use law? I'm afraid you got some very unhelpful feedback. While I work in NYC, the process is very similar from municipality to municipality, since they generally have the same criteria for determining "no effect" and "appropriateness, whether derived from the Secretary of the Interior Standards (JC) or local law(NYC), you can feel free to PM me any specific questions.
Posted on: 2016/7/25 18:40
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
Joined:
2012/9/18 3:58 Last Login : 2021/9/23 15:07 From Between Thought and Expression
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
907
|
Quote:
"I've heard many complaints of overreach: asking to see basements, stairwells, carriage houses, gardens, and the like." - when a building permit is pulled building inspectors and Historic Preservation Officers may may physically inspect the property. They just don't show up out of nowhere like the SS demanding to have a look. If you want to learn more about historic standards check out: http://www.cityofjerseycity.com/uploa ... ines%20_%20New%20Maps.pdf Some people buy property in historic districts then complain when the historic standards aren't convenient for them. Shame on them for not doing research beforehand.
Posted on: 2016/7/24 13:27
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Just can't stay away
|
It hasn't yet, it might affect me soon. Just trying to think 3 steps ahead like Ariel Hsing.
As someone living in a historic neighborhood with lots of renovation on the block, I've heard many complaints of overreach: asking to see basements, stairwells, carriage houses, gardens, and the like. This is nothing personal, btw. I'm not emotionally invested at all, since it has yet to affect me. I'm just looking for more data for my algorithm. Quote:
Posted on: 2016/7/24 12:54
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
I went to the building department first for a water heater permit and they said that since I'm Historic I had to go to the Historic department first for all building permits. I guess the Building Department just needs Historic to sign off on any permits being issued in Historic neighborhoods. But that is not Dan's doing, it's the JC Building Dept. In my opinion... Our group of row of houses, most have been renovated in the past 15 years and it was Dan who made sure that they all worked well together with matching facades and historic colors. The result is a group of homes with great curb appeal. I often hear passers by commenting how they love our block and I think Dan had a lot to do with that.
Posted on: 2016/7/24 4:21
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
It applies to any part visible from the street. I can't imagine how a water heater is any of his business, that sounds bizarre. Maybe he is overreaching. Thank God I'm not in a district.
Posted on: 2016/7/23 23:40
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
Joined:
2012/9/18 3:58 Last Login : 2021/9/23 15:07 From Between Thought and Expression
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
907
|
Quote:
In a row-house - middle of the block (not corner)- the facade is on the FRONT of the building. I provided a pretty much random example of an HPC agenda item. Instead of acting like a douche why not add something helpful to contribute to the discussion? We're trying to save the OP a trip to Trenton, after all. The op wrote: "My understanding is that his responsibility is limited to the part of the facade that is visible from the street. Is the above statement incorrect?"
Posted on: 2016/7/23 22:46
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Wouldn't you have to be the victim of 'abuse of power' to file such a claim? Not, "I heard from a guy?"
As someone living in a historic neighborhood with lots of renovation on the block I have never heard any complaints about Dan enforcing historic preservation on the interior of the home. In fact, neighbors doing renovations have told me only positive things about his visit. That said, when I went to get a permit to replace a water heater I was told by the building department to take it up to his office first because my home was historic. It was no big deal. Quote:
Posted on: 2016/7/23 22:44
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
263 York (your copy/paste was confusing about which was the subject property) is (or was at that time) a standalone, unattached on either side so the backyard is visible from the street, and subject to Historic ordinance. Try again.
Posted on: 2016/7/23 21:52
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
Joined:
2012/9/18 3:58 Last Login : 2021/9/23 15:07 From Between Thought and Expression
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
907
|
Check out the agendas from the Historic Preservation Commission agendas. Interesting reading, and will give you a good feel for what is covered by the HPC. Note that this is only for historic districts.
http://data.jerseycitynj.gov/dataset/hpc-agendas For example, January 2016 agenda item: Quote:
Posted on: 2016/7/23 21:33
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Just can't stay away
|
Quote:
You caught me in a lie. I do mind going to Trenton. That last statement you made is intriguing though. Anyone else less lonely care to flesh that answer out?
Posted on: 2016/7/23 21:20
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
|
Quote:
Why don't you inform rather that just insult and say "you're wrong!!"? Having sat through the HPNA war on Mr Reiden some years back, my impression is the same as the OP: interiors, and even exteriors not visible from the street, are not subject to historic board control.
Posted on: 2016/7/23 21:15
|
|||
|
||||
|
Re: Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Home away from home
Joined:
2012/9/18 3:58 Last Login : 2021/9/23 15:07 From Between Thought and Expression
Group:
Registered Users
Posts:
907
|
Quote:
Do you see what the "mod" allows to appear on this site from the right wing rascist Trump contingent? You think he cares about your incoherent ranting? You should go to Trenton. I double dare you! "My understanding is that his responsibility is limited to the part of the facade that is visible from the street." - no that is not correct.
Posted on: 2016/7/23 20:56
|
|||
|
||||
|
Historic Preservation Overreach?
|
||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Just can't stay away
|
I've heard anecdotes of Dan Wriedon overreaching his duties and entering building/residences that have historic designations. It hasn't personally affected me (yet).
My understanding is that his responsibility is limited to the part of the facade that is visible from the street. Is the above statement incorrect? I had a lawyer friend of mine over from New York recently, and we did the usual, "I can't believe it, never heard of something like that" thing for a minute, and then he suggested I file a report for 'abuse of power' in Trenton, because likely the Jersey City government won't do anything because they've let it slide for about 12 years or so...? Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above; I hope to see some responses before the mod deletes. If it is within his purview, this is just an example of systematic overreach as opposed to individual overreach. Either way, I'd like to know. I don't mind going to Trenton on the way to Philly on a weekday, and I doubt it would get any traction, but I'd at least like to have something down on paper.
Posted on: 2016/7/23 20:51
|
|||
|
||||