Quote:

Good luck with that. If the people fighting development spent half that time actually educating themselves instead of just spewing nonsensical phrases out of one or multiple orifices, they would understand the difference between good and bad development, the importance of architecture and design, and the value of an actual dialogue.

what about provision of public services (when the property is tax abated) and congestion (traffic & parking) associated with placing the property in that location?

How do they get away with this kind of stuff? Oh wait this is how.....

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010 ... ion_trial_unfolds_th.html

Anyone who opposes this or any development should read Matthew Yglesias' "The Rent is Too Damn High." The Rent is Too Damn High

and grapple with the issues in that book.

I'm very excited about this development.

I don't care how tall the buildings are. What I care about is the design of the buildings and the elegance and practicality of the planning. I'd much rather have an aesthetically pleasing 55-story building than an ugly 6 story building.

You have acres and acres of land sitting idle for years while condos are selling at $400-$550 / square foot in the vicinity.


To be honest, I wasn't thrilled to hear that a tall building was planned to replace the Boys & Girls Club, since that is a block away from me and I like the 3-6 story brick townhouse nature of the Van Vorst Park area. But, the Boys & Girls Club is ugly as sin. Its simply not possible for its replacement to be any uglier. So I welcome new development there. I can't wait to see them bulldoze that piece of crap.

Even if I didn't welcome development, I don't think or a well-organized group of people in the neighborhood, have a right to block it.

Again, I wish that the people would organize to demand better aesthetics, not lower density.

Read Yglesias' book! Before resorting to its usual arguments, the NIMBY crowd needs to address the issues in that book! Any time someone with a NIMBY attitude speaks up at a Council meeting, someone else should start ticking off the points made very clearly in that book.

Changes to Liberty Harbor North plan in Jersey City receive OK from City Council

October 10, 2012, 9:53 PM
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal

Controversial changes to the massive Liberty Harbor North development in Downtown Jersey City were adopted tonight by the City Council, after a parade of more than 30 union members said the changes would lead to jobs for city residents.

The revisions to the decade-old plan would lead to higher residential buildings, wider streets and a new Hilton hotel, and the changes are required to get the stalled development moving, city officials said tonight.

The council adopted the measure by a 6-3 vote, with council members Steve Fulop, Rolando Lavarro and Nidia Lopez voting against.

Ward D Councilman Bill Gaughan said if the ordinance had failed, it would have jeopardized a $6.5 million loan backed by the city, led to the loss of the proposed hotel on Marin Boulevard and cost union members thousands of jobs.

?This is important to our economy,? Gaughan said. ?Let?s all get together, let?s move this project forward, let?s create jobs.?

A parade of union members urged the council to adopt the plan, saying their lives depend on it. City resident Stacy Jackson said his wife works 12-hour days just to keep their household afloat.

?I got kids, I got five grandkids, and all of them are counting on me,? Jackson said.

Chris Langston, a member of the local sprinkler fitters union, said he has colleagues who have been out of work for years.

?They can?t feed their families, and we have a developer that wants to build in this economy,? he said.

Fulop ? whose ?no? vote elicited some boos from some of the dozens of union members in attendance ? echoed thoughts he expressed at yesterday?s caucus, said tonight that some of the changes adopted tonight amount to a ?sweetheart deal? for developer Brian Fisher.

Fisher is partnering with developer Turrunumn Murad to build the Hilton hotel. Under the new Liberty Harbor North plan, the hotel and residential facility that the two are building will have double the amount of units than it did in the original plan, though the square-footage of the facility remains the same.

Fulop said the site, formerly a city-owned lot Murad purchased in 2009 for about $12 million, is worth much more with the increased density, and the taxpayers should see some benefit.

?The city taxpayers, 250,000 of them, are entitled to those dollars,? he said.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _liberty_harbor_nort.html

I hope the Historic Paulus Hook Association gets involved in this. Grand and Marin will be a nightmare.

Van Vorst Park group in Jersey City objects to Liberty Harbor North changes

October 09, 2012, 3:55 PM
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal

A Downtown Jersey City neighborhood group is raising objections to a planned overhaul of the massive Liberty Harbor North redevelopment plan, telling City Council members in an email that the manner in which the changes were approved is ?unacceptable.?

The revisions, up for final adoption at tomorrow?s council meeting, would allow skyscrapers up to 55 stories tall, among other adjustments.

The Van Vorst Park Association Board of Directors writes in an email to council members today that they are ?highly dissatisfied? by the ?lack of communication? between the city and the community about the changes.

?Not involving the community in a project of this size, which will greatly affect not only the entire cityscape, but also the immediate neighborhood districts, as a result of increased scale, density, traffic, etc. is simply unacceptable,? the email reads.

The Planning Board has already given the changes its OK, while the council approved it in an initial vote two weeks ago.

City Planner Bob Cotter has said that the changes do not add to the size of the project ? the proposed buildings in the Waterfront development would be taller, but more slender, Cotter noted.

The council approved the proposal 6-2, with council members Steve Fulop and Rolando Lavarro voting ?no.?

The men objected to a provision that would allow developer Turrunumn Murad of Tramz Hotel Group to partner with Brian Fisher to build a hotel along Marin Boulevard. The project, originally headed solely by Murad, had an $8 million loan backed by the city in 2009 that city officials say will now be paid back in full thanks to Fisher's involvement.

In a statement released today, Fulop said Fisher?s involvement is tantamount to property flipping.

?How the city council can allow a developer that failed to live up to their agreement benefit at the cost of taxpayers is astonishing,? Fulop said. ?That?s millions of dollars pilfered from the city. That?s money that belongs to the taxpayers, not to supporters of the mayor.?


Mayor Jerramiah Healy -- Fulop's competition in the 2013 mayoral race -- objects, saying it is "absolute fiction" that Murad is profiteering from Fisher's involvement.

?They need assistance getting this project off the ground, and the Fishers ? who have the knowledge, wherewithal, and track record ? are able to provide that assistance," Healy said in a statement. "With this partnership, the city will get paid back the entire $8 million loan and the project will move forward thereby providing union construction jobs and greatly increased taxes to the City as to opposed to staying in limbo indefinitely, which benefits nobody."

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... park_group_in_jersey.html

You make it sound as a relative of Mr. Cotter might be married to someone in the Mocco clan. I don't know but there seems to be a lot of animosity toward the two. Just wondering?

Vote out TEAM HEALY.

Cotter is a joke of a puppet working with city hall & Mocco we all know is a criminal who doesn't pay his vendors.

I just hope the buildings are decent and maybe fewer, but atller structures and more outdoor space

Changes to Jersey City's Liberty Harbor development given initial OK by City Council

Thursday, September 27, 2012, 7:51 PM
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal

Sweeping revisions of Jersey City?s Liberty Harbor development that would allow taller high-rises and increased density was given initial approval by the City Council tonight.

The plan, which would create a seven-block neighborhood called the Tidewater Basin District, would allow buildings in the district to rise as high as 55 stories. The plan, which the council must approve once more before it is adopted, was approved 6-2, with council members Steve Fulop and Rolando Lavarro voting ?no? and Councilwoman Nidia Lopez absent.

The changes to the Liberty Harbor North redevelopment plan would add up to 1,900 residential units to the massive Waterfront development, bringing the total number of units to roughly 6,800.

The new district would sit between Marin Boulevard and Jersey Avenue, directly across from Liberty State Park.

Fulop and Lavarro objected to a provision of the plan that would allow developer Turrunumn Murad to partner with fellow developer Brian Fisher to build a hotel along Marin Boulevard. The project, originally headed solely by Murad, received an $8 million loan backed by the city in 2009 that city officials say will now be paid back in full thanks to Fisher?s involvement.

But the two objecting councilmen referred to the transaction as ?flipping,? with Fulop saying the city is entitled to the property because taxpayers took a ?risk? when it backed the $8 million loan.

Jim McCann, a lawyer representing the hotel developers, told the council tonight he objects that language.

?This property is not being flipped,? McCann said.

The overall changes to the Liberty Harbor North redevelopment plan have been criticized by community members, with Sam Pesin, president of the Friends of Liberty State Park, saying in an e-mail last month that they ?pose grave concerns? due to increased density.

City officials have stressed that the increased number of units is due smaller units, while the overall square footage of the Liberty Harbor North development remains the same.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... _jersey_citys_libert.html

Brewster, you are looking for logic and fairness and what is right for the city. You will not find it here. As I have said before, there is so much wrong with this, you don't know where to start. The planning office, is now in name only! They are the least progressive people in the city and they have no fight in them at all! If they are prepared to throw this plan in the garbage, we are all in trouble.

"This is the finest example of architecture and planning Jersey City has ever seen," city planning director Bob Cotter said Tuesday. "This is going to be one hell of a development project." October 31, 2003, Hudson Reporter


Today's Jersey Journal, City Planner Bob Cotter, who has endorsed the changes, echoed Mocco?s statement, saying the plan ?is the essence of New Urbanism,? an urban-design movement that stresses walkable environments, public spaces and diverse neighborhoods.

There is so much wrong with Cotter's statement, you have to believe it was written by city hall for him to say. First, you still have the so called "squat buildings", just now you put towers on top of them. Hadn't this guy looked at the plan? It?s a 13 story base with massive towers on top of them. The original plan called for modest density and a Central Park West feel. This is not that at all! The original plan had density similar to Hoboken's tallest buildings. Maybe someone should tell Mr. Mocco and Mr. Cotter that the highest rents and sale prices come out of Hoboken, where you can barely find a building over 12 stories. And by the way, Central Park West building being built today, are 22 stories, not 55 stories. Don't these guys to their homework!!

Second, this will not be a diverse neighborhood. The planning office didn't put affordable housing into it!!none! Nada! It may look diverse, but there is nothing diverse about it. And the park space is for the residents, not Downtown, the folks who will feel the brunt of this folly with traffic backed up from Newark Ave, down Jersey Ave, to create solid grid lock for everyone. Even if you don't own a car, you will feel it with traffic and car fumes.

And third, why no public meeting with the community groups that surround this project, Van Vorst Park, Paulus Hook , including Morris Canal and the hospital with 1200 employees on Jersey Ave, not to mention the Board of Ed. Is it true this amendment is three years old and is now being rushed to the city council for a vote. Three years and still no planning board hearing! Hey, bob, everything changed in the last three years, including Mocco filing for bankruptcy this spring. He has demonstrated he can't do the low rise buildings without filing for bankruptcy, what makes you think he can build 55 stories.



So what happened Bob to "one hell of a development project". You blew up Liberty Harbor North, the same way you blew up the Powerhouse Arts district. This amendment is a vastly different plan from the award winning Duany plan that the community supported and played a pivotal role in getting approved.


I watched this plan take shape and I applauded the planning board and Mr. Mocco for bring Mr. Duany up to Jersey City to work with the community to create something unique and special for our city. Now it looks like another "bait and switch" by the planning office and developer. Two planning board members who voted for this now look like prophets: Jeff kaplowitz, the chairman, who expressed reservations about Mr. Mocco and Councilwoman, Mary Donnelly, Dave Donnelly's mom. She expressed reservation about now affordable housing.

Both have been proven right.



Density is great for a city if it done correct. These buildings have no green requirements. NONE!!!!!!! It?s a recommendation! And will all know how developers follow recommendations! The community and city get nothing from this density.This plan requires the developer to do nothing sustainable! This is a gift, pure and simple. But for the developer, its" one hell of a plan". Right, Bob!



Read more:Hudson Reporter - New town in town City approves phase I of 4 8 billion Liberty Harbor North plan







1) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... iberty-Harbor-North-plan?



2) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ent-on-brink-of-approval?



3) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ey-were-kept-in-the-dark?



4) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... aterfront-s-big-projects?



So what happened Bob to "one hell of a development project". You blew up Liberty Harbor North, the same way you blew up the Powerhouse Arts district.



I watched this plan take shape and I applauded the planning board and Mr. Mocco for bring Mr. Duany up to Jersey City to work with the community to create something unique and special for our city. Now it looks like another "bait and switch" by the planning office and developer. Two planning board members who voted for this now look like prophets: Jeff kaplowitz, the chairman, who expressed reservations about Mr. Mocco and Councilwoman, Mary Donnelly, Dave Donnelly's mom. She expressed reservation about now affordable housing.

Both have been proven right.



Densification is great for a city if it done correct. These buildings have no green requirements. NONE!!!!!!! The community and city get nothing from this density. I would have more respect for the Planning Office if they followed the lead of Battery Park City and mandated green buildings and infrastructure. This plan requires the developer to do nothing sustainable! This is a gift, pure and simple. But for the developer, its" one hell of a plan". Right, Bob!



Read more:Hudson Reporter - New town in town City approves phase I of 4 8 billion Liberty Harbor North plan







1) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... iberty-Harbor-North-plan?



2) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ent-on-brink-of-approval?



3) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ey-were-kept-in-the-dark?



4) http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... aterfront-s-big-projects?

Quote:

Very well put and thus we continue the struggle between those who have learned from the mistakes of the past and those who willingly wrap their lips around the first money-roll that comes their way. The build, build, build mantra is for those who cannot see even 5 years into the future unless, of course, as I suspect their future has nothing to do with Jersey City. It's the take the money and run crowd who are gonna screw up Jersey City.

So Mocco ultimately adds upwards of what? 8000 homes to Downtown, and is a hero for making a 4 acre park for all those people? Where is the actual planners, not cheerleaders for developers?

Check out page 4 of this doc of relative parkspace in dense cities http://cloud.tpl.org/pubs/ccpe_Acreage_and_Employees_Data_2010.pdf. JC looks OK until you realize that of the 1,660 acres cited, 1200 is LSP, which is no one's neighborhood park,and the majority of the rest is Lincoln Park, a great park for those nearby. But the rest of the city has great swaths of tiny parks or none.

That page is the list of cities by parkspace per 1000 residents. Removing LSP drops us to 2 acres/k, way to the bottom. Now try this thought experiment: what if ward E was it's own city, like Hoboken. We'd have ~30 acres of park (including LHN's) for 45k people, a stat of 1 acre per 666 residents, falling WAYYYY off the bottom of the chart. And at least 1/4 of that is ball fields unavailable to the public.

By any comparative planning standard, LHN should have at least a pathetic 1 acre per 1000 residents, a total of 8, double what is planned. Or do we just say that it's just as good as any other part of undergreened JC and that's good enough? JC has had a once in a century opportunity to create great neighborhoods, and has blown it again and again.

Quote:

Or maybe the world's tallest beer garden.

I wants lots and lots of big buildings.

This would be great!

Controversial changes to Jersey City waterfront set to go before City Council

August 27, 2012, 2:07 PM
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal

A controversial plan to adjust the size and shape of portions of Jersey City?s Liberty Harbor development is set to be reviewed by the City Council next month, a plan that riles community leaders who call it a ?radical change? to the city's Waterfront.

The proposed changes, which its planners say will make the area ?the crown jewel of Jersey City's revitalized Waterfront skyline,? would create a seven-block neighborhood called the Tidewater Basin District within Liberty Harbor North, and would increase the maximum height of proposed high-rises in the district to as tall as 55 stories.

Density would also rise under the changes, which seek to add up to 1,900 residential units in the seven proposed residential buildings. That would bring the total number of units in the seven buildings to roughly 6,600.

The new district would sit between Marin Boulevard and Jersey Avenue, directly across the Morris Canal basin from Liberty State Park. The plan would add more than three acres of public space and ?public boating opportunities,? including a three-block park at the foot of Liberty View Drive.

Former North Bergen mayor Peter Mocco is the developer behind Liberty Harbor, the 80-acre Waterfront project that is only about 30 percent complete. Mocco told The Jersey Journal that the proposed changes were dictated by ?the market.?

?The market has voted for taller buildings that have a much smaller footprint than the larger buildings that are more squat,? Mocco said, adding that high-rises outsell smaller apartment buildings ?three to one.?

City Planner Bob Cotter, who has endorsed the changes, echoed Mocco?s statement, saying the plan ?is the essence of New Urbanism,? an urban-design movement that stresses walkable environments, public spaces and diverse neighborhoods.

The changes may result in more units, but that?s just because the footprint of the units decrease from 1,400 to 900 square feet, according to Cotter.

?It did not add a single square foot of development,? he said in a statement. ?It reorganized the buildings' form from squat blocks into graceful, slender point towers.?

But residents are concerned about the proposal, with a post on online message board JC List saying the changes would turn Liberty Harbor into ?skyscraper-ville.?

?These changes pose grave concerns due to the increasing of density to such a large degree in a very ecologically sensitive part of the city,? says Sam Pesin, president of the Friends of Liberty State Park, in an email he sent recently to residents of the area.

Pesin?s email was the result of rumors that the Planning Board would approve the plan at its Aug. 21 meeting.

But that board, which already approved the Tidewater Basin plan back in 2009, was merely reviewing other, smaller changes to the Liberty Harbor plan, while the council is set to take up the larger changes in September.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... ial_changes_to_jerse.html

One day I hope some rich nj billionaire decides to build a building in JC one floor taller than the tallest building in Manhattan. Whatever happened to the unfettered pride and gusto that led to the empire state building/Chrysler showdown. NYC would have a fit if we topped them. If done it secretly even better. Of course that is insanely far fetched.

As for this plan, I love it. Maybe try dreaming larger...this is a city after all. People will always have diverging viewpoints. Could going small on a large parcel of land DT be a lost opportunity for JC?

Jersey City Planning Board postpones hearing on proposed changes to Liberty Harbor

August 21, 2012, 8:43 PM
By Terrence T. McDonald/The Jersey Journal

A hearing on proposed changes to three blocks in Liberty Harbor on Jersey City?s Waterfront was postponed tonight after a city official said the public needs more information on the plan before they could comment.

The changes would affect the size and height of buildings at two locations, one at the corner of Jersey Avenue and Grand Street and the other about a block south of Marin Boulevard and Grand Street.

The proposal would also create a public park at Regent Street and Liberty View Drive.

But the hearing, scheduled in front of the Planning Board, was postponed when board Chair Michael A. Ryan told city planning officials that they hadn?t provided enough information on the proposed changes.

?This is a sensitive subject,? Ryan said before postponing the public hearing. ?Looking at what?s here, how can anyone comment on it??

The hearing has been moved to the Planning Board?s Sept. 4 meeting.

There was a flurry of communication between community activists over the weekend claiming the Planning Board was set to hear a radical change in the size, height and density of various proposed buildings along the Waterfront, but city planning officials insisted yesterday that the changes under discussion would only affect three city blocks, not an entire stretch of the Waterfront overlooking Liberty State Park.

A post on online message board JC List claimed the changes under consideration would have turned Liberty Harbor into ?skyscraperrville.? Those changes, planning officials said, were actually approved by the Planning Board years ago and still need an OK from the City Council.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/20 ... y_planning_board_pos.html

Seriously, Bob Cotter needs to go already & Mocco needs to pay his bills before he can even think about doing anymore development.
Team Healy needs to be voted out first I guess.

I couldn't agree more with paulushooker.This is a failure of our planning board and planning leadership. It's a disgrace that they would throw this plan out, for an ill conceived skyscraper deal. It's truly a disgrace!

Let me give you some history of the area, especially around St. Peter's Church. The first structure circa 1850 collapsed during construction, the second building which was similar to St. Francis Church on 32nd St was condemned by the city, and the third building which went up in 1960 still stands today but is only one story. The land is a marsh that was an active waterway in the past. There were many waterways throughout downtown. The land was filled in. There were many canals in downtown that took people to Paulus Hook, then from Paulus Hook they took a ferry to New York.

"This is the finest example of architecture and planning Jersey City has ever seen," city planning director Bob Cotter said Tuesday. "This is going to be one hell of a development project." October 31, 2003, Hudson Reporter.

I watched this plan take shape and I applauded the Planning Board and P. Mocco for bringing Andres Duany, a key figure in New Urbanism, to Jersey City to work with the community to create something unique for our city.

So what happened?

Either the Planning Dept realized that it's just too much trouble to actually adopt sustainable building standards as many cities have done or that we have such a low-information public that most will either forget or not care about these details. Remember the Powerhouse Arts District? Yeah, I don't either.

Densification is great for a city if it is done correctly but the community and city get nothing from this project. If the Planning Board followed the lead of Battery Park City and mandated green buildings and infrastructure standards then this would be something to be proud of. Instead, this plan is a gift, in that it requires the developer to do nothing sustainable! And it's a gift that keeps on giving because the Planning Board is required to do nothing sustainable either.

Why do I care about this so much? Because I worry that this is this the future of all development deals in Jersey City under Bob Cotter's tenure. Where cities all over the country are investing in energy efficiency and reduction of resources, we seem to still be living in the 1970s.


Btw, for the newcomers to JC, this is some of the history of the Liberty Harbor North project:

1)     Download Project Description (Original Duany Plan)

2)     http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... iberty-Harbor-North-plan?

3)     http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ent-on-brink-of-approval?
 
4)     http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... ey-were-kept-in-the-dark?
 
5)     http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_s ... aterfront-s-big-projects?

Quote: Yes, let's follow that analogy, and look at the percent of the area in question that has been filled by the footprints of these structures. They account for not more than 5% of the land area, probably far less, and they're primary on the water, where the water table is determined by the tide not the rain. Do you think you'd get fresh water from a well on Hudson St? I don't buy your causality. Did something happen in the mid 90's? I dunno, maybe the floor cracked, maybe the ancient sewer cracked and flooded the street fill like on my street. But your conclusion is flawed. It's not putting the baby in the bath, it's like putting her in the pool. I hate arguing with math impaired people. Show some substance to your argument other than "this happened, then that happened, so this caused that". I farted and there was lightning, but I don't believe I'm Magneto.

The term is called water displacement, in order to support these tall buildings, pilings must be placed underground, which is similar to placing a baby in a tub of water. The water rises. But I guess, some people are too lazy to look at historical maps. By the way, as a former parishoner of St. Peter's Church, the building is now the Prep's cafeteria, I remember water bubbling up the floor during Mass. The water table was rising and it came right through the floor. The bubbling floor started in the mid to late 1990's after some of the development in Paulus Hook. It was not a problem before. I attended that church for 35 years. St. Peter's Church was 3 block from from Van Vorst Park.

Quote:

So what? Large portions of Downtown JC & Manhattan used to be river, and inland was wetland. That still doesn't mean constructing foundations for high rises causes the water table to rise and cause flooding. That old swamp actually drains well given a chance, as does landfill. Areas with foundational groundwater problems are typically depressions in impermeable material like rock or clay that doesn't allow it to penetrate to the deeper water tables. That's why you can have a house built on a hillside with water problems.

I know for certain that I'd have no water in my basement if the sewer took the water away instead of holding it, and didn't leak like a sieve. McNair had $300k in damage from the sewer in Irene, a cost the city, to use a favorite phrase of Ian's, "externalized" to FEMA.

I make a comment earlier that Van Vorst Park area would suffer water problems when the water tables are raised. Some of you have questioned this. I suggest you go the the Main Branch of the Public Library and review the historical maps of JC. I have seen them. There were many waterways from ran from Layfayette to Paulus Hook. In fact, I saw a map that had Paulus Hook as an island. I remember when the Gregory Apt. were built, now called Metroplis. They found parts of a boat as they were digging the ground. I have been here longer than most and I know the history (J. Owen Grundy, city historian) was a good friend. Stop throwing mud and do your homework.

Quote:

Did you consider that it is vacation time?

I think you need a bigger sample than just one ride.