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Bingo! And wind power even has worse returns on investment. The process in making PV panels is very energy intensive. The Chinese lead the business because instead of treating the waste from the refining of the silicon (silicon tetrachloride), they just dump it around the plant, poisoning everything. Doing so gives then a real cost advantage.

Without subsidies, most of the green power tech would die overnight. Europe will be leading the way out of the 'green' even faster they led the way in. If you think your electric bills are high look at Germany and Denmark. Both are paying over $0.35 per kWh which in part is due to their investments in solar and wind.

The area I would recommend looking into to reduce your bills would be insulation and air-sealing. Don't use fiberglass insulation, that stuff doesn't work very well. Use cellulose and / or spray foam (i.e. Icynene). You will get your money back in 5 years with the bonus of not having a cold house.

In another thread I put some info about new incentives for small combined heat and power. Unlike solar, it is an upfront grant financed from the societal benefits charge.. no need to rely on some dubious SREC scheme to pay for it.

I have not run any numbers yet on the CHP system with the new incentives yet (combined with VERY low natural gas prices). I have a call out to a friend who knows somebody with a large restaurant. I figure I will do a free-bee evaluation to see if the payback is under 3 years. Basically anything with a payback in three or less is a 'go'.

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Correct.

Look up Solyndra.

Hmmm. Clearly you know a significant amount about how the numbers stack up. If all that's true, then it's unfortunate that the technology is not where it needs to be in order for this to be economically viable. Without the subsidy, that is. Can't say I'd like to trust an investment like that to various legislatures and gubernatorial administrations over 20 years.

If it takes 30 years to recover the investment ($780 annual return on $24,000 out of pocket in your first example), for infrastructure with a 20 year useful life and significant upkeep, then this doesn't make any financial sense at all.

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Bingo.

Without subsidies, large commercial systems cost about $4 per watt. Residential systems cost about $6 to $7 per watt. The 'watt' is the rated capacity of the panel, not their actual output. For example, a small (214 sqft), but properly placed residential system rated for 3,440 Watts would output about 4,316 kWh per year. Total system cost would be $24,000. The value of the electricity would be about $780, giving a raw non-subsidized ROI of about 3.3% a year. To maintain this ROI, the panels need to be cleaned regularly (even a thin film of dirt will cause output to crater). You will also need to replace the inverter (the device that converts the DC current to AC) in about 5 to 7 years. The panel's output will decline over time. Typical estimates I am familiar with is a 20% to 25% decline in output over 20 years. Rough estimate here So if you take a typical brownstone with a foot print of 22 ft x 60 ft.. assume 80% or so of the roof can be used for panels, giving a total coverage of around 1,000 sqft: At $6.50 per watt and 16.5 watts per sqft... The system would be rated at 16,500 watts and cost $107,000 to install. You would then generate about 13,500 kWh per year, which would be worth $2,430. Your return will be under 3%. So without SRECs and / or installation subsidy payments, solar is a financial dead end. This is why I would be cautious about any funding scheme dependent on some artificial market (SREC's) that exists solely at the whim of the NJ State legislature. Solar is done for two reasons now by large commercial clients: 1. Somebody else is paying for it (subsidies) 2. The business does it to make themselves look good with environmentalists. The rates NJ resident pays went up about 50% once the SREC and other renewable programs were expanded. Utilities buy those SREC's and pass the cost directly to the ratepayer. Note: My employer is in the energy business and we regularly commission large solar projects (though I am involved different areas of the business). I pulled up actual cost data to create the estimate above.

I'm not completely clear on what an SREC is or whether it places an undue burden on rate payers (of which I am of course one). Are you saying that, if the SREC program ends, the leasing company will no longer have the incentive they need to maintain the lease and would look to terminate it and force the homeowner to pay off the balance of the install cost?

As far as paying the full cost myself upfront, $50k sounds pretty steep. Could it really cost that much to install panels on a row house? Not being glib here; I really have no idea what the actual cost is.

I checked the NJ Clean Energy site. The only incentive right now is for a solar water heater.

http://www.njcleanenergy.com/resident ... rmadvantage/water-heaters

I would be wary of any program that plans to pay off your panels over the next couple decades. The SREC market only exists because of government fiat. The costs it imposes on the rate payer, IMO are not sustainable.

If the SRECs go away, who gets stuck with paying off the $50k+ install costs for the PV system?

NJ mandated that 20% of all power generated come from renewable sources. As of 2011, we were at 0.03% (per Energy Information Agency). Soon or later the state legislature is going to have to re-think this policy.

Panels will last 20 years (maybe).

Regarding federal/state subsidies - do you want ME to pay for your solar panels?

Just askin.

I'd like to resurrect this thread. We're very interested in installing solar power on our home, but not sure what the best way is to go about it. The options and providers seem to have grown exponentially over the last few years.

I contacted One Block Off the Grid the other day. They have a program they say is popular now called "power leasing." The idea, I think, is that they own, install and maintain the solar panels during a 20 year lease period. You pay the lease by paying them for the electricity generated, but at a much lower rate than the $0.19/kwh that we currently pay PSEG. It's not free energy and you're not getting money back from the grid, but on the other hand there is little or no upfront capital. After the 20 year lease period, they turn the panels over to the homeowner, at which point they are probably nearing the end of their useful life (?)

Just wondering if anyone has gone all the way through the process with any kind of lease/loan program and what your experience was. Other than One Block off the Grid, are there any other solar providers that you can recommend?

I'm also wondering if any state/federal incentive or rebate programs apply when you do a leased power program, or if those all go to the provider and are somehow "baked into" the lease deal you have.

Edit:

Yes, I saw that $670+ figure for the current price of an SREC in today's Star Ledger.

As far as I know "cap and trade" as such is dead in the water.

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although I see that utilities are still buying and selling "credits" to fulfill state requirements for green energy requirements.

Yes, I am fond of ANY method to cut energy use, to promote green power, to get cars (and cabs) off the road, but I STILL cannot believe that PSE&G will pay you 5 times as much to buy your electricity as they sell it for.


Okay I dug into the program on the PSE&G website which says that the SREC will bewoth $475 and applicable to the LOAN that PSE&G has made you (at 6.5%) for 40-60% of the cost of the installation. So they are in effect SUBSIDIZING the loan with the overpayment on your returned electricity. Considering the high interest loan and the lower STREC value, it looks like they are subsidizing half of you installation with payments maybe 3 times the value of the electricity. Something, ballpark, like a net payment to you of a quarter the cost of your installation...give or take 10%.

http://www.pseg.com/customer/solar/faq_residential.jsp#anchor7

I wonder what they pay to buy your megawatt hour AFTER you have paid off you loan.

If and when I get a South facing roof or excess yard space, I plan on installing (maybe even designing) systems to produce hot water for heating and electrical generation for all other functions including air conditioning. My interest is not so much in dealing with utilities to make money but rather for freedom from their bills except in dire need.
(PSE&G has more than quadrupled the cost of electrical heating since 1990.)

I am particularly fond of superinsulation as a means of beating the game.

Can't do SQUAT though living in this apartment.

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JC should be looking for sustainability. We use so much energy fighting the nonsense at City Hall and beyond! We are missing a huge opportunity to create real energy by investing in long term solutions, including large scale solar projects, wind energy and initiating a waste to energy system which would generate electricity using garbage and pollution. Other cities around the world and in this country (BOSTON, for instance) are doing this and we just stay mired in the filth and wasted opportunity that a local government starved by corruption creates.

JC should be looking into anything to help promote sustainabilty..........any excess power generated should go back into the power grid and the owner be given a credit on their bills

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Because of Cap and Trade. The fines that the state impose on them is far more than they pay you for the credits.

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Since MW is a measure of power (a rate) there is nothing to sell. It is power over time that equals electrical energy, so I presume you mean Mwhr (or mega-watt hours.) That is the total energy you have produced in a month.

Now PSE&G is currently selling energy AND delivering it (total of supply and delivery) for about $.19 per kwhr with a little more than half ($.12) being the electrical supply itself.

So now converting to Mwhr gives us a charge of $190 for the total and about $120 for the electricity.


So paying $670 for an SREC, or 5 times the cost of electricity seems AWFULLY hard to believe. Would PSE&G pay you 5 times what it charges you. Heck, just sell them back their own power maybe by running a line from your neighbor's garage...split the difference with him.

What am I seeing wrong here?

And that "approval" system for historic zoning seems to fly in the face of the earlier poster's assertion of federal law proscribing any locality from regulating the use of solar panels. Which is correct?

I don't know how far along you are in the process of installing panels on your property but I'll give you a brief insight to my solar installation which I did 2 years ago.

I live one of the historic districts of JC. The biggest hiccup to the process for was the hold up in the Historic Review. Not so much from issues of the Solar Panels but inactivity in review. Should it happen to you, I would suggest to make a personal appearance and introduce yourself and follow up. If not your contractor may not get their permit for months. At least that was the case over 2 1/2 years ago. When it came to inspections and PSE&G that part was flawless.

Good luck and welcome to the Solar Family it's a great feeling.

PS. You receive a SREC for every MW that your system produced. The price can be variable do to Market conditions. The avg price Last month was around $670. The price of SREC will go down in next couple of years for a number of reasons. There is no codified price on SREC's.

Quick answers:

We hope for pay back through rebates & SRECs.
I believe the state rebates in the first year a significant portion. Over the next two years, they continue to rebate.
I may have also neglected to take into account tax incentives.

We have gas heat--not electric, we would not be installing solar hot water.

I would love to investigate geo-thermal for heating and cooling.

We haven't broken it down to daily production.
Our proposal would be to install panels to provide 3500 kilowatt-hours. This is a fixed number, based on our yearly usage, though we hope to have them take into consideration anticipated growth of our household to allow us a bit more.
Since my husband and I don't have children, do not use air conditioning, have no microwave, use laptops not desktops, and are pretty thrifty with lighting, etc., we have low annual usage.
We currently use 3200 kilowatt hours.

It is my understanding that the "income" or SRECs we receive would be based on the energy we generate, but don't use, in our household. Theoretically, if we use no electricity, but simply feed the grid, the income would not exceed the value of 3500 kilowatt hours.

The value of each SREC is based on a fixed dollar amount, per watt.
I had hoped to receive cash for the kilowatt hours we return to the grid. I do not know exactly how that happens. I do know that it may actually be more about "banking" credit with the power company for future usage, so we won't have utility bills.

Currently the state has stopped accepting applications. The solar company we are working with is pretty certain they will begin again in May. When they do open things up again, the rebate value will be adjusted down, as will the value of each SREC.
Therefore our anticipated pay back will then take a bit longer...

Of course we still have not accounted for the cost to get a new roof in prep. for the panels, also, we have to take down a dormant chimney and move vents, etc. that are placed in prime solar real estate on our roof. All these are additional costs that are not consider in the rebates & SRECS.

We have a 15 ft wide, 25 ft deep roof over our 1880's brick row house. We're lucky in that we have a roof that slopes slightly, rather that completely flat. This would allow us to penetrate our roof to secure the panels (on a flat roof they weigh down the equipment using concrete "pavers"). Our roof is also ideal in that it faces south and has no shadows (but for the dormant chimney--which is coming down).
My husband and I are a bit heart broken by the notion that we might have to lose two incredible antique skylights, one over our stair case and one in our bathroom. We may just refuse to lose them. We also have to nix the idea of an all house fan we want to install (again, it would take up too much prime solar-roof real estate).
We are waiting for two proposals from the solar company. One which would allow us to keep our skylights and one which has them eliminated.
I will clarify and correct my answers as it all takes shape.

PLEASE NOTE: anyone interested in solar and green roofs, know that you don't have to choose one or the other (as I had originally thought). They actually compliment one another--the green roof adds a layer of insulation, prevents leaks, and cools the solar panels...
ALSO, people, paint or get white or silver rubber roofs! This also cools the solar array--in fact it cools the whole city (with or without solar).

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That's iffy. Rarely is a roof deeded to an apartment but rather reasonable USE of that roof is deeded. After all if it sprang a leak, you'd hate to be responsible to replace it.

Consult your master deed but expect to find something like major structural changes to the roof structure need board (or majority, or even unanimous approval.) Maybe even your insurance company would need to sign off on it.

New2JC...
Does a lot of your expected "income" from the project in the coming years come from state or local sudsidies rather than for actural purchase of your generated electricity? How many kilowatt-hours are you looking to generate in an average 24 hour Jersey City day?
Will you be using your electricity to heat your house in Winter?
Will you use battery storage of excess for your own use?

Question for everyone:

We live on the top floor of a four-story condo, each floor individually owned. Supposedly, the roof is deeded to our appt (since we're the top floor).

Does that mean we can install solar panels?

Also, when we asked our inspector (when we were purchasing our condo) about installing a roof deck, he said something like, "sure, you can do it. But remember, since it's on top of the roof, if the roof leaks, you may end up being responsible to fix it, since you add a deck to it (where otherwise, the condo assoc would be responsible for fixing the roof, if there's nothing on it).

The inspector comments made me hesitant about doing / adding anything to the roof, even though we're interested in solar energy.

Anyone has deal with stuff like this?

We were told we will be putting $16,000.00 of our own money out. In the first year, I believe, we will see pay back of $4000.00. I will provide the rest of the numbers & the other specifics as soon as I gather it all together coherently.

In the mean time:

The estimated pay back would be within 4 years or so. We were given hard numbers on the value of the "SREC"s we would earn (solar renewable energy credits) and the dollar amount the government will credit us.
So far we have learned that the number of panels & wattage you're able to purchase, using state & federal subsidies, are based on your usage over 12 months. They (energy companies) do not want to allow folks to generate much more energy than they use. This prevents people from setting up mini power plants and overly profiting.

We have already been told that we, as a household, use significantly less energy than most. In fact, I wish I had been an energy hog for a year, because it would have allowed more panels & wattage, (I would then cut down our usage to sell back the saved energy to the company). I guess that's somewhat dishonest...

The meter attached to our solar panels that measures the energy generated, our usage, and the energy we're feeding the grid, is very reliable and the energy company has little to stand on in a dispute.
PSE&G is not necessarily the energy company contracted to accept the energy generated.
FYI:
The state has suspended applications until May. Presumably they will begin again, but the kickback to the home owner is going down. Certainly the incentives will continue, but it would be wise to look into starting your own solar quest sooner, rather than later.

Really, my husband and I had no intention of getting started so soon. We thought we'd just start asking questions and then act in a year or two or three, but it just makes sense to move forward. We're gonna need a new roof anyway--we might as well get the panels up there, working for us, now vs. later. And if we want to move--it only adds value on the house.
I would love to see more of that house in Greenville. I actually like the way it looks!

That's just a fluff article.

When New2JC works the system for awhile we will have some numbers we can hang our hats on rather that glowing estimates from architects like "should pay for itself in 5 years."

I SHOULD be able to fly...but try though I wish, I cannot.

these people did:

http://www.northjersey.com/realestate ... le__sustainable_home.html

house is a little hard on the eyes but really cool.

Yes,

PLEASE keep us posted on the finances, charges, returns etc.
We have probably the highest rates in the nation, something approaching $.19/Kwhr. It would be very interesting if PSE&G (and their make believe competitors) match payments to charges.
Some of the cagier operators charge you "retail" and credit you "wholesale."
It will be VERY interestin to see how they cost out the "delivery" charges.

If the money works more of us will do it but I don't trust PSE&G, especially an UNregulated PSE&G.

a contractor friend of ours in california loved this setup (it's called solar in a box):

http://videos.sorensonmedia.com/f51b7 ... bc-4703-9cad-088bd66e3885

anyway, N2JCH, definitely keep us posted. we hope to be following in your footsteps.

so long as you don't exceed the maximum height of your building, you are fine. If you are in an historic area, you'd have to get a certificate saying it is ok, which means it should not be visible from the street.

Thank you all for your assistance. We were happy to find out about One Block Off the Grid. Apparently there is enough interest in Northern New Jersey for them to create a group rate on the solar panels/installation. My fingers are crossed that we're able to go ahead. If all goes well we can afford to make this happen. I will certainly let you know how it goes and will post as we take steps.

New2JCHeights just a personal request, *please* share with us how it goes.

My business partners have a relationship with PSE&G and broker solar transactions. They focus on commercial properties mainly but have taken on large residential projects. They are unique as they can structure it so the client doesn't have to pay out of pocket for the solar installation. They have three different options.

The power company pays for the solar panels and installation as well as a new roof (if needed) you get free solar power and the power company gets the excess power.

They arrange financing so you can pay for the solar installation and you get free solar power and get to sell back the excess power to the power company.

You pay for the solar installation yourself and get to use and sell the power back to PSE&G.

They have done a lot of projects all over NJ.

If you have any interest send me and email and I'll put you in touch with them.

They will most likely pass on small homes but larger properties they will look at.

adahill@wcslending.com

Don't worry about it. State law prohibits municipalities from passing laws that regulate or prevent the installation of solar on your building. There is no approval process required.

The Solar Center should know all about this and can answer your questions. I used to sell solar through the Home Depot, and they handle ALL permitting and inspections with installation.

My husband and I have contacted and met with One Block Off the Grid, a cooperative who hooked us up with The Solar Center. We are (hopefully) going to begin outfitting our single family brick row house with solar panels.
Before we get started we have questions regarding J.C. regulations. Has anyone gone through the process with the city? If so, was there anyone specific who was particularly helpful navigating the city regulations? Are there strict regulations in Jersey City?
Specifically we need to know whether Jersey City has rules regarding placing solar panels within ten feet of a flat roof's edge. If so, would putting up a rail along the edge allow us to use all the square footage? Our house is fifteen feet wide and twenty-five feet deep--not a large roof. We need all the space we can get.