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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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"Like I said, I'm not against gun ownership. I am for restricted gun ownership, a privilege if you will."
Of course you are against gun ownership. It's one thing to opt out of keeping or bearing arms if you're not comfortable with them. But you go on to say in the next sentence that you want to interfere with other people exercising their right as well. "The Heller case was brought due to stupid local legislation which said that any "bottom loaded" gun was an automatic weapon. While that's obviously ridiculous, the courts over-reached in the finding regarding the 2nd Amendment's militia clause." Sort of. It also dealt with the overly restrictive overall permitting process. Technically, you could have a gun, but in practice it was almost impossible to get the legal ducks lined up in a row. Sort of like in NJ. If you want a legal gun, you must be willing to take days off from work, to pay fairly high fees to the state, to submit to a gross invasion of your privacy, and to wait for an unreasonably long period. And on top of that, we now have this stupid new law, which is what this topic was originally about. "I understand that people want to exercise their 2nd Amendment right, but some people go to far." Like wanting to own gun in the city, apparently.
Posted on: 2009/12/20 21:00
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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Home away from home
 
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Edit: There was a message to which I am replying to by gibbons70. It was deleted by either the poster or webmaster. I think my reply relevant anyway.
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Like I said, I'm not against gun ownership. I am for restricted gun ownership, a privilege if you will. I've been to places in this country where walking outside is not advisable without a rifle. I get it. Let me make it clear, a felon found for possession should spend a good generation thinking about how stupid it was to play gangsta or cowboy. That said, I also don't care about what form of animal a gun collector is. Has no place in a city. Keep it in the country. I can't keep a grenade collection around. The Heller case was brought due to stupid local legislation which said that any "bottom loaded" gun was an automatic weapon. While that's obviously ridiculous, the courts over-reached in the finding regarding the 2nd Ammendment's militia clause. I understand that people want to exercise their 2nd Amendment right, but some people go to far. There's a reasonable argument to be made about what needed for self defense versus what is can be considered to be an unsecured threat to one's neighbors. When it comes to the murderers, a gun just enables the coward. He might have killed anyway, but it makes it so much easier for him.
Posted on: 2009/12/19 0:49
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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Well obviously the other things have a primary purpose which is not killing people. The car analogy is just dumb.
I'm not against guns. I just don't see the purpose of owning one in a city. It's needlessly dangerous and your kidding yourself if you think should be a privilege and not a right (you know, like a car?). If you want to keep one in your closet, go right ahead though. Dirt, possession certainly can be illegal. Circumstances dictate. The Heller case made some serious precedent but it was a flawed ruling. It's was 5-4. It made determinations about what the 2nd Ammendment deemed and "arm" and weather you were part of an organized militia. It clearly deliniated that it's decision did not include other weapons (sawed off shotguns, automatic assault rifles. It's failed to determine the states rights aspect. etc etc It will be revisited. I've seen drunken idiots in this town shoot off their guns in town on three separate occasions for various reasons. Self defense was never one of them.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:29
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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Right. And you can't play God if you think everyone else is God, too.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:26
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Why? Murdering someone is wrong. Simply possessing one is not. I've done nothing immoral if I haven't used my gun against you. Quote:
I'm not knowledgeable either way on whether a significant black market exists or doesn't exists in those areas. The black market would be determined by demand. And that's my point. People who demand guns will still demand guns regardless of the law. Americans demand guns more than Europeans and Canadians and no law will change that. In a gun criminalized world, they'll have to go through the black market, giving organized crime more power and profits. More power and profits mean more ability for them to exert violence on others.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:21
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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I'm a little confused. Not sure how firearms bestow and ability to play God. Since the four items you mention can also be used to dubious ends. I've heard people make this point before, they backed it up by stating that you can do such a thing (play God) at a distance.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:17
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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No, it isn't a crime to possess a gun. I'll agree to disagree on whether it should be. Where does all this stuff about black market come from? Why hasn't a burgeoning black market developed in Canada and Western Europe to arm people to the teeth? I agree whole-heartedly that guns aren't the only part of the murder problem in the U.S. There are cultural issues at play, educational (or lack of), and the dominance of materialism over humanism to name a few. But gun folks can make all the car/GM analogies and spit out all the "guns don't kill people" bromides they want. Guns are used by people to kill people. It's not the only use of a gun, but it is a use. And many people own them for that very reason - both "bad" people and "good."
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:14
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Right. If you want to get a gun, you can get one. The more you criminalize something, the bigger the black market you create and the bigger the organized crime around it becomes. Unfortunately, organized crime members are more violent than normal citizens. Murder is the crime, not possessing the weapon.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:06
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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I specifically chose murder with guns and said so in a prior post. There is no "hidden agenda". I am interested in how many more people die unnecessarily in this country, in part because someone had the ability to have a gun either on their person or in close proximity. And that right bestows an ability to play god in a way that a knife, baseball bat, knitting needle, axe, etc. do not.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 22:01
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Blasting a person away (not in self-defense) is a crime. Simply possessing one, isn't and shouldn't be.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 21:59
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Dude, I heard you the first three times. The Constitution can be changed. The second amendment provided citizens to bear arms to form militias - not hide mini-cannons in their pockets so that they might blast away anyone they perceive to be menacing them. Do I think an amendment is likely? Or even possible? No. But that doesn't mean I don't think it should happen. So, thanks for stating the obvious.
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Posted on: 2009/12/18 21:57
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And again, there's no specifically enumerated power in the Constitution that gives the Fed the right to restrict weapon ownership. Therefore, the power automatically is given to the states.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 21:03
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Switzerland? That must be a mistake. People are required to keep military rifles in their homes in Switzerland, yet they don't have a staggeringly high murder rate. Unpossible! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm Also, you are artificially lowering those numbers by including only gun murders and not all murders. Not that it changes your argument, but I'd like to take this opportunity to point out an intellectually dishonest technique used by anti-gun organizations to skew data in their favor. Another one is how the Brady campaign defines children as anyone 25 or under, so every time some loser gang member kills another gang member (how many live past 25), the brady campaign reports it as a "child being the victim of gun violence." As was stated, correlation does not equal causation. The relationships between violent crime and firearms is MUCH more complex than more guns=more crime. I could make an argument about cars and crime. Cars are used in many crimes, as a way to travel to and from the crime scene, as a way to transport "tools of the trade", stolen goods, drugs, and other criminals, and as a method to evade the police. All to frequently a life is cut short by an impaired driver. However, no one would say that cars cause crimes. It is the actions of the driver that determine what the car does and what it is used for, and it is the driver who is held responsible for any mishaps that may occur. Not the car, but the driver. Why? Because cars haven't been villified by any special interest groups. Someone mentioned federal regulations of firearms. Firearms are already heavily federally regulated. In fact, the relatively recent Heller vs. DC case was a challenge of an onerous federal law, which is unfortunately why it has not yet affected NJs absurd regulations. FEDERAL law requires background checks, not NJ state law. Straw purchases are prohibited by FEDERAL law. Criminals are prohibited from posessing firearms by FEDERAL law. NJ state gun laws are merely political ploys, a bunch of redundant, poorly written statutes that are crammed with media buzzwords and are so confusing that our own law agencies do not agree on how to enforce them. See for yourself (warning, PDF below): http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/ ... ms/062408_title13ch54.pdf NJ state laws are designed solely to punish gun owners and garner votes from the ignorant. No one bothers reading or thinking about any of these bills before they get passed. An example: the one-gun-per-month bill was recently reworded, at the expense of more state resources, because its original form (which passed) actually prohibited RETAILERS from transferring more than one handgun per month. The kicker? An attorney, Evan Nappen, actually pointed this out to the the "Task Force" committee (at least, to the the members who bothered to be present for his portion of the testimony) this problem. He was completely ignored. The FPID process is another example. It is stated in the statute (part of the .pdf I linked) that the process should not take more than one month. However, there is no oversight on the process, so it really takes as long the issuing local police department feels like it. At some point, someone sued since they had been waiting several months. The judge basically ruled that despite the wording, the PD could take as long as they wanted. So, even though a background check can be done in 15 minutes with the NICS system, and will still be done regardless of your FPID at the point of sale (as per federal law, which NJ and NJ ONLY charges an extra $25 fee for), you still must pay NJ ~$70 for the FPID and wait for the PD to stop dragging their feet. Jersey City in particular is notorious for long wait times, sometimes exceeding ONE YEAR! How would you like to pass your written and road test, then wait one year for your driver's license, for no reason at all? How about registering to vote, and then having to wait 6 months before you are actually allowed to go to the polls? No one would stand for that. To the member who posted the entirely irrelevent story about the dumb kid who shot himself: What does that have to do with this? A 12 year old is old enough to know not to play with guns. I was left home alone at 12, with access to the following items (off of the top of my head): Matches Keys to my parents' cars Poisonous chemicals Power tools Prescription medicines If I had stolen my parent's car, joyridden around, and hit someone, would the car be blamed? Would General Motors be blamed? No, I would have been blamed. If I had played with matches, and burned down the house, would anyone call to regulate the sale of matches? It is testament to the level of firearms ignorance (and therefore fear, since some people fear what they aren't familiar with) in this state that the unrelated death of a child is even being brought into this debate. I just realized I spelled "argument" incorrectly in several places. Please excuse.
Posted on: 2009/12/18 16:10
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No it isn't, but you can infer from the statistics and the large sample size that it is a significant factor especially when other contributing factors are similar (poverty rates, etc).
Posted on: 2009/12/17 23:04
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Okay, but how do you explain these 28 other countries? They can't all be anomalous, can they? # 20 Spain: 97 # 21 Portugal: 90 # 22 Croatia: 76 # 23 Switzerland: 68 # 24 Bulgaria: 63 # 25 Australia: 59 # 26 Sweden: 58 # 27 Bolivia: 52 # 28 Japan: 47 # 29 Slovenia: 39 = 30 Hungary: 38 = 30 Belarus: 38 # 32 Latvia: 28 # 33 Burma: 27 # 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26 # 35 Austria: 25 # 36 Estonia: 21 # 37 Moldova: 20 # 38 Lithuania: 16 = 39 United Kingdom: 14 = 39 Denmark: 14 # 41 Ireland: 12 # 42 New Zealand: 10 # 43 Chile: 9 # 44 Cyprus: 4 # 45 Morocco: 1 = 46 Iceland: 0 = 46 Luxembourg: 0 = 46 Oman: 0
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:48
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Can you? Correlation is not causation. You're dismissing the possibility that any other factor is at work.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:44
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You can, however, say that a country with strong gun laws, or gun bans, will have astronomically lower murder rates, and astronomically lower gun murder rates, as T-Bird cited. Quote:
What's interesting to me about these numbers is that the population of the UK is roughly 1/5 that of the US. Yet the non-firearm murder count for the US is roughly 7x the UK murder rate. So even without factoring in the 9,369 firearms murders in the US, our non-firearms murder rate is still disproportionately higher than the UK's entire murder rate. Overall, the US had 18x as many murders as the UK, depsite having only 5x the population. Wow.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:38
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerram
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9,369 gun murders to 14. Throw out some random number (even make it large) to adjust for different accounting and you still have a very big difference.
I agree with IW that when a gun law went into effect would have an impact on the numbers. If guns were completely outlawed tomorrow in the U.S., gun murders wouldn't disappear overnight. And I realize that guns are never going to be outlawed in the U.S., even if the justification for their being legal has no bearing on their current use. Just saying that places that have very strict gun laws and tight enforcement have lower gun murder rates. Make of the numbers what you will.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:36
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An attempt to show, that you can't say that a country with strong gun laws, or gun bans, will automatically have lower crime rates. But you laid it out clearly. How there is no universal way of recording crime.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:28
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I think I now get the point you're trying to make - but on first read it came across as if you are arguing the other side of the issue. Also, it's useless to extrapolate these statistics to the debate about gun control without also inquiring how long the UK's gun control laws have been in effect. And using 'violent crime' as a catch all in the context of gun violence in the US is akin to comparing bite frequency of chihuahas to the mortality rate of pit bull attacks.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:23
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Re: Corzine signs law limiting handgun purchases - Represents a victory for Jersey City Mayor Jerramiah
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Okay. Well, in the fifth paragraph, there is this: The UK had a greater number of murders in 2007 than any other EU country ? 927 ? and at a relative rate higher than most western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain. 927 murders in a nation of 60,769,000 (2007 population). 14 of those were with firearms. In 2007, the U.S. had 16,204 murders among a population of 308,169,000. Of those murders, 9,369 were with firearms. The U.S. ranked fourth overall in murder with firearms, trailing South Africa, Colombia and Thailand in absolute number of murders by firearms. Only eight countries worldwide recorded 1,000 murders by firearms. All numbers other than those provided in the article you linked to come from The CIA World Factbook . Adjusting for population, the U.S. has about five times the murder rate of the U.K. and a rate of murder with firearms of more than 1,300 times higher. But there probably isn't organized crime in the U.K. Or anywhere in Europe for that matter. HBO would surely have done a show about it. 
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:19
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Agreed. So what exactly was YOUR point?
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:16
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Exactly. And thanks for explaining how using countries with strict gun control, who thus have alleged lower crime rates, is a moot point, and a fallacy when compared with the U.S.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:14
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Please explain this; The comparison of violent crime statistics between countries is often problematic due to the way different countries classify crime. Valid comparisons require that similar offences between jurisdictions be compared. Often this is not possible because crime statistics aggregate equivalent offences in such different ways that make it difficult or impossible to obtain a valid comparison. For example, the UK classifies violent crime as all violence against the person, sexual offenses, and robbery whereas the US counts five categories of crime as violent crimes: murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault. So your point is moot.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 22:07
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Right. They are just traded in basements. And when this involves the black market, you get organized crime involved.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 21:55
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Please explain this; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newst ... me-capital-of-Europe.html
Posted on: 2009/12/17 21:55
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Simple thing called States Rights. That's why the National CCW Bill failed. Lautenberg himself stood firmly by stating that other States should not dictate to NJ on how to make it's own laws.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 21:48
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It's not a very strong argument. Especially since you're ignoring evidence that countries with stronger gun laws (or no guns) have less crime. Sure, the only people with guns might be criminals (or law enforcement/military). But there will be a lot less guns for criminals, reducing crime, reducing the need for you to have a gun. Criminals with guns aren't making them in their basements. They're coming from gun factories that are producing them legally.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 21:17
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Like I said: "Any power not specifically enumerated to the Feds in the Constitution is automatically given to the states. "
Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:55
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But there is evidence. Vast, heaping, seemingly incontrovertible evidence to support the notion that stricter gun laws lead to lower violent crime. It exists all over the world. Why does the U.S. rank at or near the top in almost any measure of violent crime among the OECD nations? Let's assume for the moment that this is true---that more guns lead to more crime. How is it a good solution to disarm all law-abiding citizens, leaving guns only in the hands of those who have them for nefarious purposes? Unless you think you can achieve a world without ANY guns (and you can't), then you can't disarm people who simply want to protect themselves from those who hope to do harm.
Posted on: 2009/12/17 20:36
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